Handicap Ethics - Is everyone being honest

[wkndhckr]

I'm fairly new to golf and my handicap it's starting to trend in the wrong direction from being at a low of around 15 I am now getting ready to creep to 17 after a bad cluster of rounds with poor putting. As I watch my round fall apart I realize all of the opportunities where I could have done better but did not. 

 

Having a putt lip out so you use the backside of the putter to tap in for 2 putt only to miss that too.... a three putt that should have been a one putt.

 

Chipping to tap in distance but not wanting to walk in the other person's line so you hastily putt while in a contorted position and miss.... An unnecessary two-putt.

 

Opening the face on a drive and watching it spray out of bounds. Teeing up another ball and striping it down the middle........As your third shot when it should have been the first. 

 

Losing focus in the sand and advancing the ball about an inch. Making the correction and hitting the perfect splash shot to one foot from the pin....but it took two shots to get out of the sand.

 

I have religiously added these additional strokes to my score and realize all the times that I could have had a really good round but these types of shots put me in the high 80s or 90s. Then I start to question the ethics of whether other people are actually adding these penalty strokes and missed shots that no one saw. 

 

Since I am trying to actually improve at golf, I've kept my handicap ethically even to the detriment of my public goal to be single digit. But seeing all the opportunities to cheat I wonder if others are doing the playing by the rules. Any thoughts?

Edited December 23, 2020 by wkndhckr
Grammar and spelling

[MPAndreassi]

Well, putting in lower scores than you’re actually shooting isn’t going to help you. It makes it harder on you in any handicapped event. Having a lower handicap if you can’t shoot those scores won’t ever help you. The cheating comes from the other direction. People who don’t put in their best rounds to keep their handicap higher. The only way that not counting those extra strokes would be if you’re playing in an event or a game amongst your group(s) but there would be people there holding you accountable in those cases. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by MPAndreassi

[Hawkeye77]

22 minutes ago, wkndhckr said:

I'm fairly new to golf and my handicap it's starting to trend in the wrong direction from being at a low of around 15 I am now getting ready to creep to 17 after a bad cluster of rounds with poor putting. As I watch my round fall apart I realize all of the opportunities where I could have done better but did not. 

 

Having a putt lip out so you use the backside of the putter to tap in for 2 putt only to miss that too.... a three putt that should have been a one putt.

 

Chipping to tap in distance but not wanting to walk in the other person's line so you hastily putt while in a contorted position and miss.... An unnecessary two-putt.

 

Opening the face on a drive and watching it spray out of bounds. Teeing up another ball and striping it down the middle........As your third shot when it should have been the first. 

 

Losing focus in the sand and advancing the ball about an inch. Making the correction and hitting the perfect splash shot to one foot from the pin....but it took two shots to get out of the sand.

 

I have religiously added these additional strokes to my score and realize all the times that I could have had a really good round but these types of shots put me in the high 80s or 90s. Then I start to question the ethics of whether other people are actually adding these penalty strokes and missed shots that no one saw. 

 

Since I am trying to actually improve at golf, I've kept my handicap ethically even to the detriment of my public goal to be single digit. But seeing all the opportunities to cheat I wonder if others are doing the playing by the rules. Any thoughts?

The putting stuff sounds like excuses but I don't understand why you take your messing about that probably doesn't really cost you 5 or more strokes a round to suggesting that because you count them others are cheating.  There is no such thing as keeping your handicap ethically and it keeping you from getting to single digit - your handicap reflects your potential and right now it must be 17.  I'm a 7 at the moment, not that it means anything special, but I'm not a 7 instead of a 12 because I cheat, nor are the majority of other folks, IMO, who keep a handicap. Vanity 'cappers only hurt themselves in the long run.

 

Woulda, shoulda is just enabling not getting better.  Questioning other people's ethics because you are ethical is a weird world view, IMO. Kind of setting yourself apart for no reason.

 

Keep recording your accurate scores, get out there and play more and get some quality practice and/or coaching and no doubt you can get to single digits  - focus on your game and don't waste time on what the masses are up to.

 

 

[LukeDonaldsTiger]

I’m very honest with my scoring and thus I’m super relaxed going into tournaments, or playing matches against my friends- my hcp index is pretty accurate. 

I don’t know how long you’ve been playing, but I just finished my 3rd full season, and play off 19.2 (official hcp from tournament scores). Played all but three tournaments this season due to Covid and didn’t do great.

 

I keep all my scores (incl. casual rounds) in the Grint app and it has me at 15.6 right now. Lowest was 13.5. 

I think that’s ok for a normally talented amateur. I wish I was better, but golf is hard. 

[2bGood]

Two basic premises underlie the Handicap System, namely that each player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless of where the round is played, and that the player will post every acceptable round for peer review. The player and the player’s Handicap Committee have a joint responsibility for adhering to these premises.

 

Written above is from the handicap manual. 

[caniac6]

I switched courses in the fall, and the new course has fast, tricky greens. As a result my handicap has gone up. It always goes up in the winter, too. I record my scores no matter how good, or, recently, how bad.

[farmer]

You sound like you have a concentration problem.  As to hdcp, do what you do, you cannot control what choices others make.

[wkndhckr]

 

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Woulda, shoulda is just enabling not getting better.  Questioning other people's ethics because you are ethical is a weird world view, IMO. Kind of setting yourself apart for no reason.

 

 

Perhaps you misunderstood. I don't have a worldview on this. This is golf not church or whatever. 

 

I agree with everything you said. However these were just examples of opportunities to exclude strokes from your score thereby unethically lowering your handicap. I could have just as easily include changing the lie, playing a ball that's not yours, mulligans, etc but those are more overt. 

 

I typed much more initially to explain the backstory and context but deleted it all because I didn't think it would matter but perhaps if my worldview is being questioned I should have left it in.

 

The part that resonates with me from the posts above is that it does penalize the player more than any one else so there is no good reason to drop your handicap beyond what your are capable of scoring. I see this is referred to as a vanity handicap.  Looks good but inaccurate. Lol.  It figures that people would do this.  

[Hawkeye77]

23 minutes ago, wkndhckr said:

 

Perhaps you misunderstood. I don't have a worldview on this. This is golf not church or whatever. 

 

I agree with everything you said. However these were just examples of opportunities to exclude strokes from your score thereby unethically lowering your handicap. I could have just as easily include changing the lie, playing a ball that's not yours, mulligans, etc but those are more overt. 

 

I typed much more initially to explain the backstory and context but deleted it all because I didn't think it would matter but perhaps if my worldview is being questioned I should have left it in.

 

The part that resonates with me from the posts above is that it does penalize the player more than any one else so there is no good reason to drop your handicap beyond what your are capable of scoring. I see this is referred to as a vanity handicap.  Looks good but inaccurate. Lol.  It figures that people would do this.  

The thread title says "Is everyone being honest" and then this:

 

"Then I start to question the ethics of whether other people are actually adding these penalty strokes and missed shots that no one saw. 

 

Since I am trying to actually improve at golf, I've kept my handicap ethically [...] but seeing all the opportunities to cheat I wonder if others are doing the playing by the rules. Any thoughts?"

 

I think I understood it. 

 

I think everyone is in agreement you write down your scores accurately and post them and you get what you get.  If you aren't suggesting that other people are cheating or worrying about whether they are why the question?  Sorry if I really am misunderstanding but it it pretty much comes off as "I play ethically and my scores are higher than they should be because of all these little opportunities to cheat that I don't take, but other folks must being cheating because their handicaps are lower."  Pretty close to how it comes off. If I am misunderstanding, then my sincere apologies - it's all typing and sometimes meanings are lost.  Again, most people I know who are serious about handicaps aren't taking little opportunities to cheat.

 

In the end, you keeping your score ethically is the main thing (which puts you ahead of most, not because they are unethical, but because most don't keep handicaps) and then accepting that these little things you described aren't what are really keeping your handicap from going down.  Better ball striking, better mental game, better short game and so on and you'll be a single digit at some point.  Guarantee it!

Edited December 24, 2020 by Hawkeye77

[rogolf]

Count 'em all!  It's your game and your score.  Don't think about handicap on the course, think about making your next stroke the best it can be.  As others have suggested, maybe it's a concentration issue, and then maybe it's a skill issue.  Don't backhand putts, that's a concentration issue.  Don't hit bunker shots one inch, that's a skill issue.  Work on improving both and your scores will improve.  Every stroke counts, whether you like it or not!  It's a very personal game.

Edited December 24, 2020 by rogolf

[jomatty]

I’ll argue the other side of this and say that I play with people all the time that don’t count those backhand misses and give each other 3 footers all day.  It would bother me if they were intentionally making their handicap higher on purpose but if they want to make it lower and hurt themselves if they ever play a handicap tournament then I don’t care.  But I do think it is fairly widespread...

[wkndhckr]

7 minutes ago, jomatty said:

I’ll argue the other side of this and say that I play with people all the time that don’t count those backhand misses and give each other 3 footers all day.  It would bother me if they were intentionally making their handicap higher on purpose but if they want to make it lower and hurt themselves if they ever play a handicap tournament then I don’t care.  But I do think it is fairly widespread...

This is the conversation that I wanted to get started. I agree with hawkeye but its focusing on why Im asking the question. I even received a PM from someone who saw this post and said something to the effext that flippant putts shouldnt be counted. Again just wanting to have a conversation not be crucified for asking the question 

[Augster]

Concentrate more. Don’t backhand putts. If you want an accurate cap, play everything down, putt them all out, try your best on every shot, and count them all. That way you’ll know your cap is 100% accurate to your ability. 
 

I like to say, nobody has a more accurate cap than I do. I imagine many people have a cap that is the SAME accuracy as mine, I can name many people I play with regularly, but nobody has a MORE accurate cap than I do. Because I play by all the rules, I putt everything out (unless conceded in match play) and I post all my scores to the letter of the handicapping rules. Then I let my index rise or fall as it may. 
 

It’s easy to do. Just play by the rules. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Augster

[2bGood]

49 minutes ago, jomatty said:

I’ll argue the other side of this and say that I play with people all the time that don’t count those backhand misses and give each other 3 footers all day.  It would bother me if they were intentionally making their handicap higher on purpose but if they want to make it lower and hurt themselves if they ever play a handicap tournament then I don’t care.  But I do think it is fairly widespread...

Except those people are probably recording their handicap score properly. The handicap manual does give instructions of how to record scores for unfinished holes with the most likely score for handicap purposes. If you are given a putt inside 5 feet - you MUST record it as holed for your handicap.  (your actual score and score recorded for handicap purposes can and do differ)

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/3 3 When a Hole is Started but Player does not Hole Out.htm

 

Likewise if you intentionally are not trying to shoot your best score (backhanding a ball) you are still required to record the lower score.

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by 2bGood

[cardoustie]

I’d say 15 percent vanity caps, 35% sandbaggers and 50% are accurate 

[jmudo]

So you're taking issue with vanity caps?  Who cares if some other guy claims to be a 2 but plays to a 5. That’s good for you.  Take their money. 

 

With the groups I play with we get/give more crap for sand baggers than vanity caps.

[2bGood]

11 hours ago, cardoustie said:

I’d say 15 vanity caps, 35% sandbaggers and 50% are accurate 

I would go 35% vanity, 10% sandbagger and 55% accurate. 

 

My rational (as someone that has spent 10+ years on handicap committees)-

1. A very high proportion of women golfers I have encountered are vanity cappers no matter how long they have played

2.MOST junior golfers I have encountered are vanity cappers

3.Many new/casual golfers are vanity cappers. They don't play in money games or competition enough to understand this hurts them

4. To be a sandbagger you have to take the competitive game seriously and also not care if everyone thinks you an A-Hat. Sandbaggers stand out and we pay attention to them, but I think they are actually far few in numbers. From doing handicap reviews I also find where there is an accusation of sandbagging, after a full review it is rare that it is actually true.

5. Most golfers I encounter are accurate. 

 

Keep in mind my experience is very much club based where everyone knows one and other and you can only be a sandbagger for 'so long' before is catches up with you. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by 2bGood

[Divot License]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

Keep in my experience is very much club based where everyone knows one and other and you can only be a sandbagger for 'so long' before is catches up with you. 

 

I agree with this, being a member of a club means you don't really have anywhere to hide either as a vanity capper or a sand bagger. 

 

To the OP, my advice would be to play every shot as if it's the most important on the round and count everything. That way as you improve (you will if you keep practicing and working to improve) then you have a genuine benchmark to review against.

 

Also if you do the above and play everything as it lays then come tournament time, you are used to everything already.

 

One of the biggest mistakes player make is giving themselves a better lie even on the fairway when playing, as come tournaments you don't get that luxury.   

[swagee]

11 hours ago, wkndhckr said:

I'm fairly new to golf and my handicap it's starting to trend in the wrong direction from being at a low of around 15 I am now getting ready to creep to 17 after a bad cluster of rounds with poor putting. As I watch my round fall apart I realize all of the opportunities where I could have done better but did not. 

 

Having a putt lip out so you use the backside of the putter to tap in for 2 putt only to miss that too.... a three putt that should have been a one putt.

 

Chipping to tap in distance but not wanting to walk in the other person's line so you hastily putt while in a contorted position and miss.... An unnecessary two-putt.

 

Opening the face on a drive and watching it spray out of bounds. Teeing up another ball and striping it down the middle........As your third shot when it should have been the first. 

 

Losing focus in the sand and advancing the ball about an inch. Making the correction and hitting the perfect splash shot to one foot from the pin....but it took two shots to get out of the sand.

 

I have religiously added these additional strokes to my score and realize all the times that I could have had a really good round but these types of shots put me in the high 80s or 90s. Then I start to question the ethics of whether other people are actually adding these penalty strokes and missed shots that no one saw. 

 

Since I am trying to actually improve at golf, I've kept my handicap ethically even to the detriment of my public goal to be single digit. But seeing all the opportunities to cheat I wonder if others are doing the playing by the rules. Any thoughts?

From my own experience, it’s actually the other way around. People tend to inflate their index by not inputing their best rounds, in order to gain advantages in a skin game. 
Since we often play as a group, all of us are required to use an app to track our scores and indexes. However, it still couldn’t prevent cheaters from using a different app from the rest, hence avoiding the check and balance on inputs. 
Golf is one of the easiest sports to cheat in, and inflating one’s index is the easiest way to do it in golf. Is it worth doing for an advantage in a small skin game? Only a cheater would be able to answer that... 
 

[jomatty]

6 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Except those people are probably recording their handicap score properly. The handicap manual does give instructions of how to record scores for unfinished holes with the most likely score for handicap purposes. If you are given a putt inside 5 feet - you MUST record it as holed for your handicap.  (your actual score and score recorded for handicap purposes can and do differ)

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/3 3 When a Hole is Started but Player does not Hole Out.htm

 

Likewise if you intentionally are not trying to shoot your best score (backhanding a ball) you are still required to record the lower score.

 

Without obsessing over the rule book I’m fairly sure that if I start picking up all my 5 footers and calling them good, then I’m doing something wrong.  Or, as many of these guys do, I putt the 5 footer but if I miss someone simply says “oh that was good” so I pretend like I made it, that I am not constructing an accurate hcp.

 

edit:

after rereading the link I’m fairly certain this does not apply to most recreational golfers in my example.  These are “friendly” rounds when no one is playing a match against each other.  The link provides no ability for someone to pick up a 4 footer because it sucks having to make 4 footers...

Edited December 24, 2020 by jomatty

[Hawkeye77]

8 hours ago, wkndhckr said:

This is the conversation that I wanted to get started. I agree with hawkeye but its focusing on why Im asking the question. I even received a PM from someone who saw this post and said something to the effext that flippant putts shouldnt be counted. Again just wanting to have a conversation not be crucified for asking the question 

Come on, nobody has "crucified" you, not even close.  You asked for thoughts, they are being offered and in a respectful way. 

 

Of course you count "flippant" missed putts, and you do, so no problem.  People that don't are just kidding themselves, let them, why worry?  Play by the rules as you are and enjoy it!

 

If the real question is now does everybody count their strokes according to the rules, no doubt the majority of people I encounter don't, but again the vast majority of golfers don't keep handicaps and . . . I don't care how they want to play.

 

I agree with @2bGood - I see far more vanity cappers than sandbaggers.  But, @cardoustie plays a lot of comps and his experience is different.  I'd argue with no basis whatsoever that issues with sandbagging are going to show up more if you are playing competitively in handicap events - we really don't have those around here except for leagues where I just don't see sandbaggers in any serious way, so around here . . . 10% sandbaggers, 30% vanity (I say that because guys who roll it on every shot are posting scores and they are therefore lower than they should be in some measure, or just post selective scores), 60% according to Hoyle.  Don't know there is any across the board general consensus. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Hawkeye77

[Deceptively Short]

Under CONGU I would say vanity 5% (those who previously low but haven’t posted many rounds) fairly accurate 75%, sandbaggers to a greater or lesser extent 20%.

[Newby]

14 minutes ago, Deceptively Short said:

Under CONGU I would say vanity 5% (those who previously low but haven’t posted many rounds) fairly accurate 75%, sandbaggers to a greater or lesser extent 20%.

I agree.

Because CONGU was very much formal competition based, it would be difficult not to count all shots. Everyone was very careful to putt out. And so called 'casual' or general play rounds were also monitored very rigorously. On the other hand many older players tend to play fewer competition rounds and inevitably their scores no longer match their handicaps. So one could say they are vanity caps but in practice the 'supposedly' compulsory Annual Review would tend to bring them back in line. It was rather 'chicken and egg'. They couldn't play to their handicap so didn't play in competitions so their handicap wouldn't go up ........

Unfortunately, sandbaggers are an insidious problem. They play 'poorly' in ordinary run of the mill individual competitions with their handicaps going up 0.1 every time. But when it comes to major individual comps or open BBs (where prizes can be quite significant) all of a sudden their scores blossom.

Hopefully the WHS averaging system will help counter this. Interestingly, I believe Ireland is talking about trialing BB scores for handicappin adjustments.

 

[cardoustie]

I will clarify my sand bagger numbers... 60% of them have no clue what they are doing

 

It is the balance that intentionally keep an inflated cap that drive me nuts ... also coming from 10 plus years as a committee member ..Captain, tournament chair, handicap chair etc

 

Some guys love to win shop certs at all costs ... and have their name called out in front of everyone on league day

 

You know the guy, shoots 92 four days a week but on men’s day as a 18 cap here comes a legit 80. (These guys are different than the 9 caps that shoot 75 every men’s day with Mullies, picked up 5 footers and fluff all lies .. the guy that can’t break 90 in the club C)

Edited December 24, 2020 by cardoustie

[Deceptively Short]

If there are so many vanity handicappers in the US it would be good to see individual strokeplay competition results. I understand that these are no commonly run but if they were, theoretically, you should get a lot of PCC kicking in as a significant % of the field would not be able to play to their handicap. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

My experience w/my friends  and associates (~24 people ranging from 8-25 HC) - I think our handicaps are very accurate. We aren't perfectionists but I think we capture our HC scores very accurately.  I know this because when we have head to head or team competitions it's really a crapshoot of who will win.

[TourSpoon]

9 hours ago, jmudo said:

So you're taking issue with vanity caps?  Who cares if some other guy claims to be a 2 but plays to a 5. That’s good for you.  Take their money. 

 

With the groups I play with we get/give more crap for sand baggers than vanity caps.

The group I play with is really good about inputting their best rounds and a few are not so good about inputting bad rounds. That doesn't bother me one bit as it keeps their handicap a little lower than it really needs to be. It just means they have to play or pay and they are missing out on a few extra strokes that they probably deserve.

[Sean2]

Even if I did the vanity thing, I still wouldn't have anything to brag about, lol. 

[Hawkeye77]

I'm just trying to nudge the OP off this honesty thing and get him on the important and relevant track which is getting about the business of becoming a single digit while counting them all (that will put him in very rarified air among all those who play golf - and at a 17 he's better than most, as someone would say)!  Merry Christmas!

[farmer]

I read somewhere that you can spot a sandbagger if he offers to play you for money without asking about your hdcp.