Rick Shiels Butchers another Tech Review - AutoFlex

[TGSherriff]

On 12/28/2020 at 2:54 PM, Feelingofgreatness said:

If the shaft is truly magical and worth $900, he should be able to pop it in and see some sort of gains. He used the right flex for his speed. 

I think he gave it a fair shake and was honest. 

Whereas the TXG guys just try to optimize to the nth degree using the swing of a plus handicap, then every 10-15 handicap goes out and spends $900 hoping to get similar results. 

Autoflex seems like marketing genius at its finest. 

To be fair, the TXG videos have stated a number of times that the shaft is stupid expensive, needs to be properly fit for and even then the gains are likely not worth the cost for most. 

[TGSherriff]

On 12/28/2020 at 3:05 PM, David69 said:

So what should he have done? Tried that shaft with 5 different club heads in an environmentally controlled studio? I find the TXG videos are far more problematic and unrealistic. They need to get rid of that guy who swings 125+ and get a mortal in there. Or just use a swing robot. 

There channel is about fitting...so yes, the environment that they test n is relative to that experience. And they say so.  They also use a lot of other testers, but COVID has prevented that for the last 10 months so you either get Matt swinging his normal swing or trying to reign in the speed.  Not at all unrealistic as long as you acknowledge that they are fitting and optimizing for him and the principles are the same for all. 

[tjcarsillo]

He’s hit or miss for me. Sometimes he seams realistic and sometimes he has his own agenda/bias. Which I do not mind because we all do. No YouTube reviewer is ever going to tick all of our boxes or tell us which club is the best for us. That’s the best part about golf and tinkering, finding out what works best for you. 

[TWNG]

On 12/29/2020 at 3:54 AM, Feelingofgreatness said:

If the shaft is truly magical and worth $900, he should be able to pop it in and see some sort of gains. He used the right flex for his speed. 

I think he gave it a fair shake and was honest. 

Whereas the TXG guys just try to optimize to the nth degree using the swing of a plus handicap, then every 10-15 handicap goes out and spends $900 hoping to get similar results. 

Autoflex seems like marketing genius at its finest. 

 

It didnt work for Rick,  and I am sure may not work for some others as well, but that doesnt mean it is all marketing gimmick.  For many others, it does work.  Just like most any product, some will like it, some will not.   

 

I got to try hitting it tonight,  SF505 in a driver, and came away very impressed.  Not sure on the SS or distance difference versus my current club, as I wasnt on a launch monitor, and was hard to tell visually on the distance,  but the dispersion was excellent, in fact, the best I have ever had with any shaft/driver.  Was quite surprising given the whippy shaft, as you think it will be all over the place, but it stayed in control and it was so smooth through impact.  I am a mid to high hcp, with a SS around 100 or so, so for me getting that kind of dispersion is impressive, given how much I can spray other shafts/drivers.

 

Price is prohibitive and will make many think twice, but for those who it really works for,  it will be tempting.  I would definitely put it in my bag, if I could get over paying $800 for one shaft.   

Edited January 15, 2021 by TWNG
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[Feelingofgreatness]

14 hours ago, TWNG said:

 

It didnt work for Rick,  and I am sure may not work for some others as well, but that doesnt mean it is all marketing gimmick.  For many others, it does work.  Just like most any product, some will like it, some will not.   

 

I got to try hitting it tonight,  SF505 in a driver, and came away very impressed.  Not sure on the SS or distance difference versus my current club, as I wasnt on a launch monitor, and was hard to tell visually on the distance,  but the dispersion was excellent, in fact, the best I have ever had with any shaft/driver.  Was quite surprising given the whippy shaft, as you think it will be all over the place, but it stayed in control and it was so smooth through impact.  I am a mid to high hcp, with a SS around 100 or so, so for me getting that kind of dispersion is impressive, given how much I can spray other shafts/drivers.

 

Price is prohibitive and will make many think twice, but for those who it really works for,  it will be tempting.  I would definitely put it in my bag, if I could get over paying $800 for one shaft.   

Quite honestly, if you think dispersion is about some magical shaft... then pluck down the money. I have been playing golf 30 years and I have played with a lot of guys that hit their driver dead straight on a rope, it was never about the equipment and always about the player. You need to square the face at impact and no shaft is going to "Auto Square" a bad swing.

[keepingsanitythrugolf]

14 hours ago, TWNG said:

 

It didnt work for Rick,  and I am sure may not work for some others as well, but that doesnt mean it is all marketing gimmick.  For many others, it does work.  Just like most any product, some will like it, some will not.   

 

The gimmick is the price and name. It's still a business right, nothing wrong with that.

It MUST have a sticker price that high in order for any shop, reseller, to even have the incentive to keep inventory and sell those. If it was $100 and called Pinto, it wouldn't create the margins nor attention.

[JungleJimbo]

On 1/7/2021 at 12:10 AM, TGSherriff said:

COVID has prevented that for the last 10 months so you either get Matt swinging his normal swing or trying to reign in the speed

@TGSherriff: Your comment reminded me of this recent TXG video, testing the ping g425 driver... ie Matt (Lefty) swinging Righty, to approximate an “average swing speed” player (still ~95mph and 260+yards!)... it was a fun watch albeit demoralising/ fascinating that Matt has a decent & consistent righty swing!

 

 

[TWNG]

20 hours ago, Feelingofgreatness said:

Quite honestly, if you think dispersion is about some magical shaft... then pluck down the money. I have been playing golf 30 years and I have played with a lot of guys that hit their driver dead straight on a rope, it was never about the equipment and always about the player. You need to square the face at impact and no shaft is going to "Auto Square" a bad swing.

For that price, it should square the shaft for you,  as well as swing for you.  But, you totally misinterpreted my post. Of course, you still have to put a good swing on it.  Of course no shaft will square the face for you, but that wasnt my statement.   And it isnt the statement of anyone on this board that says that they like some equipment. One could apply the same argument for any golf equipment you buy that it is not going to prevent bad results from a bad swing.   

 

On the flipside, we also know that some equipment, e.g. shafts will fit your individual swing better than others. We are not talking about a magical effect, no equipment is going to fix a bad swing. We are talking about how some equipment works better with our individual swings than others.   Usually when people are talking about liking a golf club,  it is assumed that of course you have to put a good swing on it.  That is a given.  

 

When I stated that this shaft really worked well for me and tightened my dispersion,  I am stating that this shaft seemed to really fit my swing better than any other shaft I have tried.  Also, I did hit my other shaft at the same time, since sometimes we hit it better simply because we are in a groove for awhile.   So,  I never said or implied that you dont have to put a good swing on it,  just that it worked for me better, which means it worked with my swing better.   And following the same logic that it is swing dependent,  then that is why I also stated that the Autoflex wont work for all.  Nothing magical, it just worked well for me. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by TWNG

[TWNG]

19 hours ago, keepingsanitythrugolf said:

 

The gimmick is the price and name. It's still a business right, nothing wrong with that.

It MUST have a sticker price that high in order for any shop, reseller, to even have the incentive to keep inventory and sell those. If it was $100 and called Pinto, it wouldn't create the margins nor attention.

I didnt really pay attention to the name at all, but yeah, it may be a bit gimmicky.  I dont care about the name, nor much about the looks, only care really if it works well for me.  Their other line was something like Auto Power and with this shaft, they likely wanted to indicate that even though the flex seems whippy and soft, it still works and they didnt want to use the conventional flex ratings.   

 

The high price can either be a marketing ploy to make people think it is exclusive/special  and/or some really expensive technology, when it may not be,  or it may really be expensive to produce.  The downside of charging an exorbitant price is that you take out a good chunk of customers as potential buyers and you better well be able to back it up for that price, as people will expect more and expect a bigger differential in improvement.  So, not likely you will be able to survive, if it doesnt produce some benefits for those that buy it or try it.  And if it doenst work for enough people to get enough sales.  Time will tell if it works for enough people.  I only found it seemed to work for me in helping dispersion with my swing.  Distance wise,  I couldnt tell, but dont think it gave me any significant distance gains.  

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by TWNG

[TGSherriff]

On 1/15/2021 at 3:42 AM, JungleJimbo said:

@TGSherriff: Your comment reminded me of this recent TXG video, testing the ping g425 driver... ie Matt (Lefty) swinging Righty, to approximate an “average swing speed” player (still ~95mph and 260+yards!)... it was a fun watch albeit demoralising/ fascinating that Matt has a decent & consistent righty swing!

 

 

I saw that as well...thought it was a great compromise but also was demoralized that he plays better righty than I do!

[cachecropp]

On 1/4/2021 at 2:31 PM, Long_Left said:

I'm curious to know what you feel you'd gain in seeing this type of information? Related question: Does driver performance at the edges of the face factor into the buying decision for anyone?

 

The only thing I have in common with Matt from TXG is that I play left handed... I hit an 8 iron yesterday off the grooves on the smooth part of the toe, lost about 40 yards , stayed on line... but why would I concern myself with that shot's performance?

 

I think the difficulty in collecting data from 10-30 handicappers is the unique nature of the golf swing, the higher the index usually correlates with how "unique" the swing is as well, so one given 20 with an over the top move is going to be significantly different from most other 20ish slicers. I don't, personally, see the benefit of seeing how a club performs when we hit it like a sausage. And I mean "we," I'm not trying to defend only seeing testing from a human robot launching the ball into orbit every time, but I cannot fathom watching my dad (in his 70s, swing speed about 80, can't get the clubface on the ball much, plays as an excuse to drink a couple beers and walk around for a few hours and loves it.)

 

Every reviewer I've seen online with any kind of following would tell you to spend your money on lessons instead of a new driver or any club, or buy the driver with the biggest face...

I think you answered your own question. We all miss hit it and most of us do it fairly often. The average golfer scores about 100.  The average avid golfer is in the 80’s.  90% of golfers hit the ball all over the face or have a regular miss in one direction from center.  Club tests which compare clubs hit right in the middle is a good baseline for performance, but really doesn’t tell me much about how well it will do for me during a typical round of golf.
 

Here’s a hypothetical: Driver #1 tested by Shiels or TXG (both of which I like, BTW) hits the ball 300 yards carry and has decently tight dispersion favoring the right side a little.  Driver #2 hits the ball 310 yards carry with equally tight dispersion but favoring the left side quite a bit.  I buy Club #1 because I miss fairways to the left most often, I fear the duck hook.  
 

So What did their test show me which pertains to me?  Nothing.  I swing 95-98 mph and I miss it on the toe most often.  Does either club perform better with toe hits? No clue?  Does the stock shaft for either club perform the same in regular flex at 95mph as the X-flex did at 115mph?  No idea.  What if one club is 10 yards shorter for Shiels, but actually goes 10 yards farther and has tighter dispersion for 95 mph toe hits?
 

If I had the benefit of a hitting bay, a Trackman and access to all the clubs, I would run tests at different swings speeds and categorize hits slightly above, below, to the toe and to the heel.  These would be compared to perfect center hits and you could give consumers at least some idea of how it works for their 85 or 95 or 105 slightly out to in path toe miss. Or heel miss, etc.

Edited January 24, 2021 by cachecropp

[lefthack]

On 1/21/2021 at 5:08 PM, TGSherriff said:

I saw that as well...thought it was a great compromise but also was demoralized that he plays better righty than I do!

 

Yeah well, I don't want to see how bad my right swing would look in comparison. 🤣

 

But it was a great idea for testing GI irons.

[Long_Left]

20 hours ago, cachecropp said:

I think you answered your own question. We all miss hit it and most of us do it fairly often. The average golfer scores about 100.  The average avid golfer is in the 80’s.  90% of golfers hit the ball all over the face or have a regular miss in one direction from center.  Club tests which compare clubs hit right in the middle is a good baseline for performance, but really doesn’t tell me much about how well it will do for me during a typical round of golf.
 

Here’s a hypothetical: Driver #1 tested by Shiels or TXG (both of which I like, BTW) hits the ball 300 yards carry and has decently tight dispersion favoring the right side a little.  Driver #2 hits the ball 310 yards carry with equally tight dispersion but favoring the left side quite a bit.  I buy Club #1 because I miss fairways to the left most often, I fear the duck hook.  
 

So What did their test show me which pertains to me?  Nothing.  I swing 95-98 mph and I miss it on the toe most often.  Does either club perform better with toe hits? No clue?  Does the stock shaft for either club perform the same in regular flex at 95mph as the X-flex did at 115mph?  No idea.  What if one club is 10 yards shorter for Shiels, but actually goes 10 yards farther and has tighter dispersion for 95 mph toe hits?
 

If I had the benefit of a hitting bay, a Trackman and access to all the clubs, I would run tests at different swings speeds and categorize hits slightly above, below, to the toe and to the heel.  These would be compared to perfect center hits and you could give consumers at least some idea of how it works for their 85 or 95 or 105 slightly out to in path toe miss. Or heel miss, etc.

I'm sorry you don't have access to fittings or the equipment needed to perform them, I can sympathize as both a lefty (limited clubs) and living in a smaller city (limited launch monitors) that the resources here are not stellar.

 

I think the main point I was trying to get across was that "your" swing is just that... yours and guys like Shiels and TXG are doing what they do with one purpose, drive viewership to their videos. TXG is a business so they get more technical and aspirational to convince you of their skill in fitting, Rick's viewership IS his business so he cranks out more "relatable" content at a faster pace so you watch more ads and he makes more money... The point being, neither of them is worth the time in helping an individual make a buying decision, but both can be useful in getting closer.

 

For what it's worth, I have found TXG to be helpful in understanding shaft profiles and "intent" of the clubheads (kill spin, launch high, fade bias, etc.) and have made semi-educated guesses to purchase a driver. From that baseline I know that I best play a driver shaft that is designed to be both tip and butt stiff and am pretty indifferent to the midsection until it feels "whippy." I also need a higher launching clubhead because I hit up on the ball with a slightly closed face. None of this information was obtained through fitting sessions or trackman/gcquad sessions. It's a LOT of personal effort to overcome the fact that I don't have immediate access to a launch monitor and it was a fair bit of wasted money on "buy it to try it..."

 

Last note, talk to your pro/director, he or she probably knows a few brand reps who could demo some clubs/shafts for you...

[clinkinfo]

On 1/5/2021 at 7:51 AM, Long_Left said:

I'd certainly be interested in seeing more useful information on off center strikes as well. I also have doubts that the information would be reliably repeatable outside of a machine hitting the ball.  Face to path, effective loft, etc are all huge variables that likely (I'm guessing here) are more important when the ball is struck off center. Closure rate would have a significant impact on toe side performance I'd imagine.

 

I think I've gotten to the point where I use reviews and such to get in the ballpark for things I'd like to try and then have to go try them for myself.

 

but there’s all kinds of testing done like what you are mentioning,  the problem really is we as golfers don’t necessarily believe the results because we’ve bought into the hype and marketing.  
 

there are videos even questioning if shaft flex and profile does anything at all to the ball flight, or it just makes you hit a different spot on the face.  The videos make you go “hum...”.  But We still just collectively don’t believe that, because it goes against what’s been taught and marketed by the manufacturers.

there’s serious psychology at play.  We dismiss what we don’t believe, even when results and evidence directly contradicts what we were told and decided to believe.  Isn’t that why we are still in such a political mess?  Not because any of it’s true (or ever was), but because a percentage of people have decided to believe it regardless, and will only accept and process information they perceive supports that decision.  
 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by clinkinfo

[Long_Left]

On 5/26/2021 at 6:34 PM, clinkinfo said:

 

but there’s all kinds of testing done like what you are mentioning,  the problem really is we as golfers don’t necessarily believe the results because we’ve bought into the hype and marketing.  
 

there are videos even questioning if shaft flex and profile does anything at all to the ball flight, or it just makes you hit a different spot on the face.  The videos make you go “hum...”.  But We still just collectively don’t believe that, because it goes against what’s been taught and marketed by the manufacturers.

there’s serious psychology at play.  We dismiss what we don’t believe, even when results and evidence directly contradicts what we were told and decided to believe.  Isn’t that why we are still in such a political mess?  Not because any of it’s true (or ever was), but because a percentage of people have decided to believe it regardless, and will only accept and process information they perceive supports that decision.  
 

 

Golf is a game of confidence, I've long been a believer that anyone can swing any shaft and hit it well, much of it is psychological... "I can't hit an X flex, this shaft is too light etc" all serve to create compensation in a swing and reduce performance or consistency. For the same reason I can go to TopGolf and swing the clubs there with perfectly adequate results even though I'm looking at half a ball's worth of offset... 

 

With all that said, find the equipment that makes you comfortable and confident over the ball and you will play better. I just ordered a club with a shaft I'd never heard of before I tested it, the results were markedly improved over the shaft I had been testing and if that difference is all in my head it doesn't really matter does it? Convincing yourself that this ladies flex shaft is perfectly fine is a hell of a lot harder to pull off mentally than picking one of the myriad options that "feel" more correct for you and walking away confident that the choice isn't hurting you. Maybe it's all the same shaft with a different paint job but the one that is painted matte black with a big X on it helps you swing confidently?

 

Lastly, each of our swings is perfectly unique, while I'm certain that many swings have produced identical numbers of CHS, AoA, face angle etc, how many testers can replicate me? Only one that I'm aware of, and he's far from good enough to rely on external testing for all of the required data.