Blade (MB) MythBuster

[Myherobobhope]

11 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

I'm going to switch immediately now, thanks for that 

Liar.

[jholz]

Man, I really hate the term "blades." You guys realize that CBs can be "blades" too, don't you? Is the term "muscle-back" just not cool enough? What is the deal here?

[MtlJeff]

6 minutes ago, Myherobobhope said:

Liar.

 

What empirical evidence do you have to back that up? (checks signature, same as yesterday)

 

Crap!

 

You win this round, sir

[morgan1819]

Dear OP

 

Everything you typed about your MB experience is true ... FOR YOU.  Specific to you, and Z Forged (great irons, btw).

 

There are also tons of examples where a mid-capper gave MBs a real chance, and shot higher scores.  Maybe their MBs didn't fit them as well as the Srixons work for you, or possibly they were a slightly less consistent ball striker.

 

For me, the proper choice has been going with the club that gives the most confidence while standing over the shot.  So I'm using blades in 8-G, and muscle cavity in 4-7.

 

[CAT GOLFER]

I find when I try out MB type blades, I don’t try as hard to hit the ball.  I let the swing happen and take what comes.  Maybe it is psychological but I always have that thought that one dumb swing and I will get the sting to remind me.  
 

I played a whole summer where I rotated in MB styles with my normal perimeter CB’s and statistically speaking my scores stayed the same and I managed two closest to the pins in scrambles.  
 

I could really go both ways, i know for me mishit iron shots are a possibility, MB, or not. My score is not punished for my iron choice alone.

[Oh Hi Carl]

I hadn't seen those MC-501's until this thread caused me to check them out. Very cool looking iron.  Not so cool price tag.  

[dmecca2]

Loved the write up and it's awesome to see someone enjoying and playing well with blades...... But point #2... cmonnnn mannn. That's just bogus 😂

[lefty1978]

Playing blades is like joining crossfit, you just got to tell everyone how wonderful it is.

[LowAndLeft32]

Great post. I’m a club ho and tried all kinds of stuff. I want to believe that new clubs and different types of clubs can result in difference performance. While there might be some very slight difference in club performance across types, my trial error shows little to know difference in end results on the scorecard. For example no matter if I play blades or CBs my scores are basically identical. What matters to how wow I scored on any given day is how well I drove the golf ball and how many putts I made outside 6ft. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by LowAndLeft32

[FatThinShank]

13 hours ago, hypergolf said:

1. You will lose distance with blades - BUSTED - In the beginning when I was transitioning from CB to MB, I did lose distance in my 4-6 iron by half club to a club. But I realized that it was more the bad habits I formed with CBs that created this distance loss. Now all my distance are back to normal despite weaker loft and I have learned to focus and commit 100% to the shots I am making.

 

2. Blades are more punishing than cavity backs - SEMI-BUSTED - Yes, they are more punishing in terms of distance loss when you mishit. But score card wise, they are actually better. When you mishit a blade, the ball does not fly off into the woods, rough or water but because of the significant distance loss you actually have a better second shot chance from the first initial mishit most of the time.

 

 

Sounds like you found a set that works great for you but I'm not sure that you busted myths here. 

 

1. For most golfers if they switch to weaker lofted irons, especially blades, they should expect some distance loss just because of flight characteristics. If you are saying they are spinning more and are weaker lofted, the ball just isn't going to go as far. In your case the Z forged and the 785 have only 1 degree of loft difference but most blades are weaker lofted than the z forged (33 degree 7i).

 

2. If you make the same swing a GI iron is not going to magically send the ball flying into the woods while your blade is going to leave you with a nice layup. For you it might be easier to keep the ball online but by no means does that apply to everyone else, the swing that flew into the woods is always going to end up there, regardless of the head.

 

The blades thing is mostly just a preference for each golfer, I don't think a week of fun new clubs should be turned into a thesis statement on the myths of blades. 

[JDMRN81]

13 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

I'm going to switch immediately now, thanks for that 

 

[Myherobobhope]

2 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

 

What empirical evidence do you have to back that up? (checks signature, same as yesterday)

 

Crap!

 

You win this round, sir

I just checked your post history and didn’t see you in the blade lovers thread... or I’ve been reading your posts here since 2012ish? Back when the other Canadian guy was here all the time... I think he also had a Simpsons avatar? 
 

my new favorite word is dispersion, though... if you want to talk about irons being better, show me the dispersion charts of both.

[chippa13]

15 hours ago, hypergolf said:

It has been about a week now since I transitioned from CB to MB.

 

Now that I became accustomed to the new set MBs and my distance in my long irons back to normal, I have personally busted some pre-conception (myths) about blades.

 

Following are what I have noticed or some myths that have been busted:

 

1. You will lose distance with blades - BUSTED - In the beginning when I was transitioning from CB to MB, I did lose distance in my 4-6 iron by half club to a club. But I realized that it was more the bad habits I formed with CBs that created this distance loss. Now all my distance are back to normal despite weaker loft and I have learned to focus and commit 100% to the shots I am making.

 

2. Blades are more punishing than cavity backs - SEMI-BUSTED - Yes, they are more punishing in terms of distance loss when you mishit. But score card wise, they are actually better. When you mishit a blade, the ball does not fly off into the woods, rough or water but because of the significant distance loss you actually have a better second shot chance from the first initial mishit most of the time.

 

3. You need good swing to play with blades - SEMI-BUSTED - Blades will force you to swing better and have better ball contact if you want your fingers intact after a round of golf. My swing has become better ever since I transitioned. My friends who play with game improvement or even some CB irons who hit well with their own can't hit MB with their current swing. This kind of shows that they are currently not swinging the correct way. I think blades force you to correct your swing and not overkill your iron shots.

 

4. Blades have higher spin rate - CONFIRMED - Not only can you exaggerate fades and draws, the actual backspin rates seems higher than CBs. Having weaker loft definitely helps increase backspin but I am shocked to see how short irons just have one bounce then stops on the green.

 

5. Blades feel better than CBs/game improvement irons - CONFIRMED - The pure feel when struck on the center of the face is pure bliss. Even player CBs don't feel this good. Now I am a true believer of blade "feel" and understand why some people tend to gravitate towards MBs. Once you go blade, I think it will be difficult to come back...

 

I think the moral of the story is that people should have an open mind and give it a good week or two for transition period before jumping to conclusions (or selling off their MB purchase) after only one or two swings on a simulator. Blades also feel different off the mat vs actual turf on the fairway (grass). Once you experience it you will want that solid, unforgettable MB feel every time you hit a golf shot. I am totally converted.

Bad habits you picked up playing CBs? Did they make you start smoking or biting your fingernails?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Eagerly awaiting the "focus" statement.

[iNeedMoreGolf]

I hit the one shot with the mp20 blade wrong in a store...i still feel the stingy electric vibrations going through my arms. I was  stunned litteralt and mentally lol scared me off tbh but i do think their are many positives to them. I ended up with full set mmc 20. Which seems to be a big difference from bigger gi irons as your describing. Flight,spin, turf interaction all better with minimal distance loss. Shows on the card too.

[Tree Levino]

28 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

Bad habits you picked up playing CBs? Did they make you start smoking or biting your fingernails?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Eagerly awaiting the "focus" statement.

Show us on the doll where the blade touched you 

[DMartini]

@hypergolf good on you for giving the irons a go & its great you are enjoying hitting them, thats what the game is about for us amateurs isnt it?.

 

you are not the first to get flamed about this topic, and you wont be the last.

 

[ebk]

13 hours ago, llewol007 said:

That’s right. Forced you to hit the middle of the face. You became addicted to the feel of a solid shot of the face of a Mb iron. Nothing better

Not meant to be sarcastic - but is sweet spot in middle of the face now on MBs?  I have a set of 1961 Wilson Staff Dynapower Fluid Feel irons (they were my dad's) which I haven't hit in 30 years.  But for the short time I played them I remember two things about the sweet spot :  1) it was the size of a gnat's eyeball and 2) it was way close to the heel (i.e. in hosel rocket territory if you had a slight miss to the heel-side).

 

I also remember that to this day, they had the best feel I've ever felt on a perfectly struck shot.

[hypergolf]

58 minutes ago, DMartini said:

@hypergolf good on you for giving the irons a go & its great you are enjoying hitting them, thats what the game is about for us amateurs isnt it?.

 

you are not the first to get flamed about this topic, and you wont be the last.

 

 

Haha. All good man. I don't take it personally. This is just a forum after all and lots of trollers.

 

In fact, I used to be one of the haters for blades. It really didn't make sense to me back then because every article I read mentioned blades are harder than CBs and also I didn't have the skillset to play them as well. So I guess I was partially jealous that I couldn't use blades and had confirmation bias to justify reasons why I couldn't use blades back then. I am sure some of the haters are going through the same thing.

 

Due to the holiday break I was able to play almost everyday since the purchase and really enjoyed them... Not for the first couple days though. 

 

 

 

 

[MtlJeff]

OK so sure let's take this thread seriously and empirically....

 

So, can someone explain to me why a mishit ball with GI's that "flies into the woods" whereas a blade would land short is some sort of proof of anything other than terrible aim?

 

So, your mishit GI that flies into the woods....Um, wouldn't a well struck ball have gone further into the woods? Why were you aiming at the woods ? 

 

Why does "long" only go into water but "short" never does? Do you guys play a lot of courses where all the hazards are behind the green?

 

FWIW i don't care what people play. I have used MP32s, S59's, G15's, JPX forged, Apex Pros, G410s...I DONT CARE....But cmon we cant question stuff like "blades make me try harder!"

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by MtlJeff

[kylemd]

OP:

 

Agree with the addicted to the blade pureed shot feel. Been playing them all my life. Mizzy mostly. Currently in MP 29’s and 14’s ( again for the bazillion th time). 
 

eBK: yes in your older blades the sweet spot was more heel side of center. Now more or less center due to grinds and COG. I occasionally will take out my grandfathers blades ( from the sixties) ( OLD Macgregors)  with the long pinned hosels.... def heel sided sweet spot. 
 

Play what you enjoy playing, be it razor thin blades or shovels. Ball doesnt care. 

[Chuck905]

7 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

OK so sure let's take this thread seriously and empirically....

 

So, can someone explain to me why a mishit ball with GI's that "flies into the woods" whereas a blade would land short is some sort of proof of anything other than terrible aim?

 

So, your mishit GI that flies into the woods....Um, wouldn't a well struck ball have gone further into the woods? Why were you aiming at the woods ? 

 

Why does "long" only go into water but "short" never does? Do you guys play a lot of courses where all the hazards are behind the green?

 

FWIW i don't care what people play. I have used MP32s, S59's, G15's, JPX forged, Apex Pros, G410s...I DONT CARE....But cmon we cant question stuff like "blades make me try harder!"

 

My experience with blades is the front to back dispersion pattern is tighter, therefore eliminating the long miss. For example, if I’m looking at a 165 yardage, that’s the farthest I want the ball to go. Some of the distance irons, can easily jump an unexpected 10 yards which equates the ball rolling to to the back or worst; thru the green which is next to impossible to get up and down for par.

 

Secondly, I do get more spin with blades so the ball does stops quicker as well.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Chuck905

[hypergolf]

6 hours ago, Fairways_and_Greens said:

You are so smart.

 

Look what I found for you. https://pluggedingolf.com/should-you-play-blades/

 

Yes, I acknowledge your statement.

 

If sarcasm was intended, I suggest you to move on 🙂 

[MtlJeff]

2 minutes ago, Chuck905 said:

My experience with blades is the front to back dispersion pattern is tighter, therefore eliminating the long miss.

 

Secondly, I do get more spin with blades so the ball stops quicker as well.

 

My experience on well struck balls i don't notice much difference. If someone wants to tell me that blades have slightly better dispersion i won't argue it but i will say slightly , not significantly.

 

I spin the ball more with players clubs, but hit the ball higher with GIs. So there's a bit of a tradeoff it really depends on the situation. I'd probably rather hit a 3-4-5 iron with a GI and a 9 iron with a blade TBH

[revanant]

51 minutes ago, ebk said:

Not meant to be sarcastic - but is sweet spot in middle of the face now on MBs?  I have a set of 1961 Wilson Staff Dynapower Fluid Feel irons (they were my dad's) which I haven't hit in 30 years.  But for the short time I played them I remember two things about the sweet spot :  1) it was the size of a gnat's eyeball and 2) it was way close to the heel (i.e. in hosel rocket territory if you had a slight miss to the heel-side).

 

I also remember that to this day, they had the best feel I've ever felt on a perfectly struck shot.

This is not a crazy question at all. My Hogan Redlines and BH Grinds have a heel-side sweet spot--I learned to set up favoring the heel a little with those irons and I do the same with my MP-4s and Apex MBs. When I hit the Miura CB 501 and MB-101, it was the same story. 
 

That being said, modern irons make an effort to push the sweet spot more towards the center--I think that's part of what's behind the blueprint's toe screw, or the Apex MB '21's center weight, etc. 

[DwightC]

On the Nike VR muscle backs (which I've been playing for about five years), yeah, I'd say the sweet spot is slightly 'inside', though I wouldn't call it 'way close' to the heel.  They are beautiful sticks and I'm not tempted to change.

 

Back in the last century, I learned to play with a set of lynx clubs, back when muscle backs were 'game improvement' clubs, then dutifully moved on to cavity backs under the recommendation of various teaching pros (still back in the last century), and am happy to have found my way back to the Nikes (in the last decade), which are now called 'blades', instead of muscle backs, for some reason.

 

I enjoyed the OP's post, which I thought, in context, was clearly about what he found was subjectively true for him, not an effort to proclaim the objective truth for one and all.  A week--couple practice sessions and a couple of rounds--is long enough to get past the 'first round bliss' that guys so frequently have (especially with new drivers).   Be interesting to hear what he thinks in a month or so.

[Tree Levino]

37 minutes ago, Chuck905 said:

My experience with blades is the front to back dispersion pattern is tighter, therefore eliminating the long miss. For example, if I’m looking at a 165 yardage, that’s the farthest I want the ball to go. Some of the distance irons, can easily jump an unexpected 10 yards which equates the ball rolling to to the back or worst; thru the green which is next to impossible to get up and down for par.

 

Secondly, I do get more spin with blades so the ball does stops quicker as well.

 

This is where I’m at as well. I agree with @MtlJeff in that a CB going off to play in the woods on the same miss as a blade is nonsensical- Sorry to OP as he’s a good dude - but that is just not the case. 
 

for me as a high speed player it just takes away the long miss a bit. I cruise my 7i around 100mph and ball speed hovers in the low 130s. I carry my 7 around 185-190 and don’t need it going further.  I play with a strong grip and though I try to play a tight draw or fade when necessary, I can turn it over a bit too much and the combo of spin and less jumpy face keeps things in check. 
 

I do see the benefits of feedback. Blades do provide that and if you have a sound swing I think they can help you tune things in a bit tighter. There are bigger drop offs in the long end. I also think that the tendency to make poor strikes feel awful leads some to believe they are less forgiving than they are just because of how bad they feel. The ball speed drops are similar. As with any irons, the main thing is CG placement and ability to elevate on thin strikes. A Ping G has a low cg, wide sole and lots of mass low. It’s going to elevate on a thin better than day a 620 MB. If you’re the kind of player who smashes it off the toe the G is going to beat pretty much any blade on distance retention and launch. If you hit the middle but have bad control of the face it doesn’t matter what you play. Low point is the same deal. 

[revanant]

4 hours ago, Myherobobhope said:

I just checked your post history and didn’t see you in the blade lovers thread... or I’ve been reading your posts here since 2012ish? Back when the other Canadian guy was here all the time... I think he also had a Simpsons avatar? 
 

my new favorite word is dispersion, though... if you want to talk about irons being better, show me the dispersion charts of both.

This is a recent video from Mark Crossfield on exactly this topic. He set out to test a Mavrik Max against a random Top-Flite blade from the '80s, on dispersion/distance loss from mishits. There are charts. 🙂
 

 

52 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

OK so sure let's take this thread seriously and empirically....

 

So, can someone explain to me why a mishit ball with GI's that "flies into the woods" whereas a blade would land short is some sort of proof of anything other than terrible aim?

 

So, your mishit GI that flies into the woods....Um, wouldn't a well struck ball have gone further into the woods? Why were you aiming at the woods ? 

 

Why does "long" only go into water but "short" never does? Do you guys play a lot of courses where all the hazards are behind the green?

 

FWIW i don't care what people play. I have used MP32s, S59's, G15's, JPX forged, Apex Pros, G410s...I DONT CARE....But cmon we cant question stuff like "blades make me try harder!"

 

On the "concentration" side, I don't quite get why folks who play golf find it weird. Matthew Wolff does his funky juke before every swing--its a training aid that helps him swing well. Some folks waggle the club, take practice swings, etc.
 

Personally, I find that having a blade in play is a very effective swing thought/reminder not to overswing, that 80% power is plenty, and smooth=fast. Putting a blade behind the ball is a very effective and sobering swing thought.  That being said, all things being equal, I wouldn't turn down a free set of 620 CBs or MP-20 MMCs--I don't think a small cavity magically spoils a club. 
 

On the issue of mishits flying further though, that is something I've definitely experienced with prior sets (716 AP1, Idea Tech v4, etc) and it's a real problem. 
 

We all play golf. A lot of golf courses aren't friendly to mishit balls. If my ball is directionally offline, I want it to die and stop as fast as possible, because if it doesn't, there's a good chance I'm going to lose the ball or get wet. I don't want it flying faster and carrying further in the wrong direction, because a lost ball is the fastest way to ruin a hole. 
 

Likewise, I really don't want my ball to fly further than I expect it to with an iron. We all have to factor in the short miss when we play golf--it's a known quantity. If there's a hazard in front of me, I can plan around it by taking more club, etc. If my ball winds up in the water because I made poor contact, it's not good, but it's not a surprise. 
 

A long miss is bad because it's unpredictable. It not only can ruin a hole, but it shakes my confidence that I know my distances. It leaves me wary of making a full swing the next time I pull my iron out. It rewards a good input with bad feedback/results. 
 

Ultimately, a long miss just makes golf harder. If you look at the Crossfield video, the Mavrik has a two way miss, length-wise. Lots of golfers make it a point to remove the two-way miss from their game on the horizontal plane. The Mavrik Max basically introduces a vertical miss that the blade doesn't have. 

[MtlJeff]

1 minute ago, revanant said:

This is a recent video from Mark Crossfield on exactly this topic. He set out to test a Mavrik Max against a random Top-Flite blade from the '80s, on dispersion/distance loss from mishits. There are charts. 🙂
 

 

On the "concentration" side, I don't quite get why folks who play golf find it weird. Matthew Wolff does his funky juke before every swing--its a training aid that helps him swing well. Some folks waggle the club, take practice swings, etc.
 

Personally, I find that having a blade in play is a very effective swing thought/reminder not to overswing, that 80% power is plenty, and smooth=fast. Putting a blade behind the ball is a very effective and sobering swing thought.  That being said, all things being equal, I wouldn't turn down a free set of 620 CBs or MP-20 MMCs--I don't think a small cavity magically spoils a club. 
 

On the issue of mishits flying further though, that is something I've definitely experienced with prior sets (716 AP1, Idea Tech v4, etc) and it's a real problem. 
 

We all play golf. A lot of golf courses aren't friendly to mishit balls. If my ball is directionally offline, I want it to die and stop as fast as possible, because if it doesn't, there's a good chance I'm going to lose the ball or get wet. I don't want it flying faster and carrying further in the wrong direction, because a lost ball is the fastest way to ruin a hole. 
 

Likewise, I really don't want my ball to fly further than I expect it to with an iron. We all have to factor in the short miss when we play golf--it's a known quantity. If there's a hazard in front of me, I can plan around it by taking more club, etc. If my ball winds up in the water because I made poor contact, it's not good, but it's not a surprise. 
 

A long miss is bad because it's unpredictable. It not only can ruin a hole, but it shakes my confidence that I know my distances. It leaves me wary of making a full swing the next time I pull my iron out. It rewards a good input with bad feedback/results. 
 

Ultimately, a long miss just makes golf harder. If you look at the Crossfield video, the Mavrik has a two way miss, length-wise. Lots of golfers make it a point to remove the two-way miss from their game on the horizontal plane. The Mavrik Max basically introduces a vertical miss that the blade doesn't have. 

 

I have zero issue with someone saying they prefer blades for whatever reason , including because it makes them more confident. But that is a personal thing, not a reason everyone should play them. 

 

As far as distance goes you can't have it both ways (I don't mean you, just the argument in general). The argument tends to go "blades offer better dispersion,  well except for when they'll dont (mishits) but don't worry because when they have worse dispersion it will never hurt you and only help". That doesn't really make sense

 

Also yes we all play golf. One thing I don't understand is the extremes were willing to go with dispersion.  Want to say blades have better dispersion on well struck balls, ok. But its relative, its not like swinging a club like a G410 has these unpredictable yardages. I play in tournaments, etc. If balls were just flying 10yds over greens on the same swings I wouldn't be able to shoot the scores I do 

[PuffyC]

A buddy of mine who’s probably a 20 handicap tried this same experiment only he went from a GI club to a true blade. Here’s what he found:

 

1. You will lose distance with blades - Partly True. If you hit it in the sweet spot then no, you probably won’t lose distance. Less than perfect strike? You will definitely lose distance, sometimes a lot.

 

2. Blades are more punishing than cavity backs - True, although it depends on what you mean by “punishing”. His golf was far uglier with blades but the scorecard showed no meaningful difference.

 

3. You need a good swing to play with blades - False. Anyone can play blades, it just depends on how much you want to torture yourself if you’re not a scratch player. He saw no real scoring difference but the game was far less enjoyable with blades.

 

4. Blades have higher spin rate - True. The Trackman numbers were clear on this.

 

5. Blades feel better than CBs/game improvement irons - False, for him anyway. In my 40 years of playing I’d tend to agree. I’ve hit some clubs that felt awesome and some that felt terrible, and while a players club will almost always feel better, I’ve found no actual correlation with blades vs CBs or with cast vs forged for that matter. But that’s a debate for another day.

 

As for OP’s clubs, you’re comparing a 785 to a Z-forged, two clubs with very similar MPF ratings so I wouldn’t think there would be significant differences in playability between the two.

[ALIF]

As a 23 capper, should I play straight blades or use the CB's in the 1 & 2 irons?  Did I mention I play DG X7's?