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8 hours ago, SUMM1T said:

Tiger seems to get a lot more leeway from most golfers when it comes to his performance. Looking at SG stats from the 2020 season, Phil posted better all around stats than Tiger, including a better SG off the tee than Tiger. 

And yet Phil didn't finish ahead of Tiger in any event in the 2020 season when they played the same event. Even when they both missed the cut at the US Open Tiger had a better score. And FWIW Tiger has been bashed for his level of play here many many more times than Phil.

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*sighs audibly*   No dude, but he's playing against other people.  It doesn't matter that he's as far as he has ever been if everyone else has gotten faster.  He can be 122 (Best in my caree

For one of the best golfers to ever play the game who has added distance and speed since he was in his prime... 2 champions tour wins is not impressive, sorry.

In 1993-94, he was 25th in driving distance.   In 2003, he was still 25th in driving distaance.   Right now, he is around 25th in driving distance.   Stop romanticizing t

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8 hours ago, grm24 said:

And yet Phil didn't finish ahead of Tiger in any event in the 2020 season when they played the same event. Even when they both missed the cut at the US Open Tiger had a better score. And FWIW Tiger has been bashed for his level of play here many many more times than Phil.

Lol.  I laughed at “ strokes gained “.  Is Phil possibly the exception of the strokes gained idea ?    As in can we track eventually  how many drives over 310 you can hit vs score to par and see if indeed strokes gained is a misnomer for him.  ( ducks for cover ). 

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10 hours ago, grm24 said:

And yet Phil didn't finish ahead of Tiger in any event in the 2020 season when they played the same event. Even when they both missed the cut at the US Open Tiger had a better score. And FWIW Tiger has been bashed for his level of play here many many more times than Phil.

 

I don't think that Tiger never receives criticism. I do think many are quick to defend his choices, and rightfully so. 

 

I don't blindly believe Phil is playing well either. I know he is struggling, but to suggest it is solely caused by his speed gains is shallow. There is much more to his struggles than speed. 

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3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Lol.  I laughed at “ strokes gained “.  Is Phil possibly the exception of the strokes gained idea ?    As in can we track eventually  how many drives over 310 you can hit vs score to par and see if indeed strokes gained is a misnomer for him.  ( ducks for cover ). 

 

I think his stats are misleading due to Phil typically playing extremely well but having one or two really really bad holes per round. I think those blow up holes are hidden by stats. 

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16 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

 

I think his stats are misleading due to Phil typically playing extremely well but having one or two really really bad holes per round. I think those blow up holes are hidden by stats. 

Well. Yes. Very true.  The “ strokes gained “ idea in my opinion is misused in these arguments.  If he didn’t actually gain shots ( shoot lower ) then all he did was contribute to the stats pot ...... he didn’t actually “ gain a stroke “.  

 

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3 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Well. Yes. Very true.  The “ strokes gained “ idea in my opinion is misused in these arguments.  If he didn’t actually gain shots ( shoot lower ) then all he did was contribute to the stats pot ...... he didn’t actually “ gain a stroke “.  

exactly. That is where this process fails. He hits a 350 yard bomb in the fairway. But then some how makes double bogey from there. Kinda messes up the whole thing. haha. 

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21 minutes ago, SUMM1T said:


The process doesn’t fail. It can’t fail. It’s just data. People can only misuse it. 

I agree, but if the data does not add up. Something is wrong right?? If Phil was statistically high in strokes gained but finished worse. There is something wrong some where. There are allows outliers. This may be a case. 

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Just now, QuigleyDU said:

I agree, but if the data does not add up. Something is wrong right?? If Phil was statistically high in strokes gained but finished worse. There is something wrong some where. There are allows outliers. This may be a case. 


Which stat(s) are you referring to that Phil was statistically high in? 

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2 minutes ago, SUMM1T said:


Which stat(s) are you referring to that Phil was statistically high in? 

I have no idea. The comment was made earlier that he finished ahead of Tiger in strokes gain. I was just working off the assumption that is true.  

 

This.. 

 

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48 minutes ago, SUMM1T said:


The process doesn’t fail. It can’t fail. It’s just data. People can only misuse it. 

Right. Which is what I said.  It’s misused trying to show Phil as a “ better driver “ than tiger. 

 

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22 hours ago, SUMM1T said:

 

Tiger seems to get a lot more leeway from most golfers when it comes to his performance. Looking at SG stats from the 2020 season, Phil posted better all around stats than Tiger, including a better SG off the tee than Tiger. And we could argue Tiger seemed to chase distance for a moment and has since toned it down a little. While I can see how it could be easier to tag distance as the culprit for Phil's decline, it isn't that simple. He's struggling with all parts of his game, suggesting it is more complicated than an obsession with speed. 

This is the strokes gained part I was speaking of.   
 

phil can’t possibly be actually gaining strokes.  Only on weeks he’s won.  Aggregate for the whole season he has to be loosing strokes by the many per his scores.  I hate the term “ strokes gained “.  It only rings true in my mind if you account for it in one event at a time intervals.  This whole season aggregate method makes no sense.  You can lead strokes Gained in several spots snd never win anything.   You can have a guy like Phil have driving stats that suggest he is on the right path.  I think it’s a false positive.  It doesn’t take into account the emotional rollercoaster of bombs that equal birdies and then the inevitable bomb every round that equals double bogey or others that ruin nearly every round.     
 

phil should concentrate on eliminating doubles or worse , guarantee his scoring average goes down if he could do that or at least get it down below the tour average for that occurrence. .   Instead of trying to make more birdies to cover up the once a round blowup he averages now.  Guys who drive it crooked should back up off the tee to where the dispersion cone leaves them in play 99.99 % of the time and then work on approach play.  
 

phil has always done this.  But.  He got away with it early because of shorter courses.   He could use length to hit less than driver and be long.  Exactly as he did on the champions tour recently.  The short courses cover up his driver issues.  

 

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41 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Right. Which is what I said.  It’s misused trying to show Phil as a “ better driver “ than tiger. 


I was using SG as an example of how perception leads people to believe certain things. Phil is not a great driver of the ball now, but he never really has been.
 

This entire post was steered in the direction of speed gains as the reason behind Phil’s struggles. It’s not that simple. And we can clearly see that is his stats along with all around play. 

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36 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

This is the strokes gained part I was speaking of.   
 

phil can’t possibly be actually gaining strokes.  Only on weeks he’s won.  Aggregate for the whole season he has to be loosing strokes by the many per his scores.  I hate the term “ strokes gained “.  It only rings true in my mind if you account for it in one event at a time intervals.  This whole season aggregate method makes no sense.  You can lead strokes Gained in several spots snd never win anything.   You can have a guy like Phil have driving stats that suggest he is on the right path.  I think it’s a false positive.  It doesn’t take into account the emotional rollercoaster of bombs that equal birdies and then the inevitable bomb every round that equals double bogey or others that ruin nearly every round.     
 

phil should concentrate on eliminating doubles or worse , guarantee his scoring average goes down if he could do that or at least get it down below the tour average for that occurrence. .   Instead of trying to make more birdies to cover up the once a round blowup he averages now.  Guys who drive it crooked should back up off the tee to where the dispersion cone leaves them in play 99.99 % of the time and then work on approach play.  
 

phil has always done this.  But.  He got away with it early because of shorter courses.   He could use length to hit less than driver and be long.  Exactly as he did on the champions tour recently.  The short courses cover up his driver issues.  

 

I think that's the wrong lens to look through with Strokes Gained. I agree that it's overly complex at times. Strokes Gained doesn't suggest Phil is moving the right direction with driving, it just shows that his driving isn't the worst part of his game when compared the the fields he plays on a weekly basis. 

 

Again, Strokes Gained doesn't have the ability to lie or technically be wrong. What we do with the information brings incorrect outcomes and scenarios. 

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41 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

phil should concentrate on eliminating doubles or worse , guarantee his scoring average goes down if he could do that or at least get it down below the tour average for that occurrence. .   Instead of trying to make more birdies to cover up the once a round blowup he averages now.  Guys who drive it crooked should back up off the tee to where the dispersion cone leaves them in play 99.99 % of the time and then work on approach play.  

 

He finished 2020 with a scoring average of 71.009, while the Tour Average was 71.099

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42 minutes ago, SUMM1T said:

 

He finished 2020 with a scoring average of 71.009, while the Tour Average was 71.099

Right.  Horrible for a player who’s in a legitimate talk for top 10-15 player of all time.  Average is well below his talent level. Even at 50.  Even if we’re talking 1 shot a round.  That’s enormous.  
 

I do get what you’re saying with Phil’s driving now.    But.  I don’t know how we don’t correlate his seemingly micro focus on speed to his current shat show of playing Performances.   I’m a Phil fan.  And he’s incredibly hard to watch now.  It’s as if he stopped practicing anything except driver , and lost all of his magic touch.   Yet. He gained speed so he could miss more fairways or hit it further off the planet.  
 

people keep citing the champions tour wins.    He could dominate that tour with 10 clubs.  None being driver.  Or 3 wood.  270-280 off the tee with a driving iron would rule.  That claim of success is a false flag in my opinion.  If he hadn’t won I’d have been literally shocked.  

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3 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Right.  Horrible for a player who’s in a legitimate talk for top 10-15 player of all time.  Average is well below his talent level. Even at 50.  Even if we’re talking 1 shot a round.  That’s enormous.  
 

I do get what you’re saying with Phil’s driving now.    But.  I don’t know how we don’t correlate his seemingly micro focus on speed to his current shat show of playing Performances.   I’m a Phil fan.  And he’s incredibly hard to watch now.  It’s as if he stopped practicing anything except driver , and lost all of his magic touch.   Yet. He gained speed so he could miss more fairways or hit it further off the planet.  
 

people keep citing the champions tour wins.    He could dominate that tour with 10 clubs.  None being driver.  Or 3 wood.  270-280 off the tee with a driving iron would rule.  That claim of success is a false flag in my opinion.  If he hadn’t won I’d have been literally shocked.  

 

Phil is not playing to almost anyones standard, but trust me, his standards are higher than ours for himself. We can guess all day long on what is causing his game to decline, but the truth is none of know the reason(s). Looking through his stats suggest he is slaking on every part of his game, including short game. I think the stats also show there is a mental battle happening as well. All of this is speculation though.

 

The Champions Tour wins are never going to be black and white. However, I would ask you what you think about anyone winning on the Champions Tour. I would venture to guess that most who consider them fairly mundane don't consider the Champions Tour to be much of anything with or without Phil and his wins. I think that's unfortunate though. 

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1 hour ago, SUMM1T said:

 

Phil is not playing to almost anyones standard, but trust me, his standards are higher than ours for himself. We can guess all day long on what is causing his game to decline, but the truth is none of know the reason(s). Looking through his stats suggest he is slaking on every part of his game, including short game. I think the stats also show there is a mental battle happening as well. All of this is speculation though.

 

The Champions Tour wins are never going to be black and white. However, I would ask you what you think about anyone winning on the Champions Tour. I would venture to guess that most who consider them fairly mundane don't consider the Champions Tour to be much of anything with or without Phil and his wins. I think that's unfortunate though. 

Sounds Like we’re mostly agreeing on his game in general.  I realize it’s a “ guess “.  But an educated one if that’s even possible?  We have to know he’s slacking somewhere.  And at the same time working hard.  And I agree on the mental battle.  I think he allows stats to get to him , and/or the attention that speed brings.  Neither can score in this game alone.  They are tools to be used wisely.  I’ve fallen into this trap too at times.  And find stats to be more of a hindrance than a help.  Not all stats.  But strokes gained for example.  I find it to be a constant “ you suck “ reminder. I don’t stink compared to most.  But I find the comparisons to be much like trying to have the perfect golf swing.  It hinders scoring.  It’s much more wise to choose the path with less clutter and simply play the game.  ( my opinion ) this is for folks like me ( or phil ) who have the artists brain.  Adding all these analytics simply clutters the pathways.   It doesn’t help.  Trackman and strokes gained have hurt Phil, Not helped him , in the overall game ( my opinion ).  The worlds best chefs don’t measure their ingredients...... they simply cook.  

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This thread needs to be renamed from "Phil with new Epic" to "EPIC Phil"

 

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1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Sounds Like we’re mostly agreeing on his game in general.  I realize it’s a “ guess “.  But an educated one if that’s even possible?  We have to know he’s slacking somewhere.  And at the same time working hard.  And I agree on the mental battle.  I think he allows stats to get to him , and/or the attention that speed brings.  Neither can score in this game alone.  They are tools to be used wisely.  I’ve fallen into this trap too at times.  And find stats to be more of a hindrance than a help.  Not all stats.  But strokes gained for example.  I find it to be a constant “ you suck “ reminder. I don’t stink compared to most.  But I find the comparisons to be much like trying to have the perfect golf swing.  It hinders scoring.  It’s much more wise to choose the path with less clutter and simply play the game.  ( my opinion ) this is for folks like me ( or phil ) who have the artists brain.  Adding all these analytics simply clutters the pathways.   It doesn’t help.  Trackman and strokes gained have hurt Phil, Not helped him , in the overall game ( my opinion ).  The worlds best chefs don’t measure their ingredients...... they simply cook.  

 

Could it be Phil is 50 and going thru a midlife distance/speed crisis? The whole tour/world is going through it right now though. My thought is he actually caught the wave early and started a brand of Hitting Bombs and fitness, maybe he's a little lost in the sauce? He believes that is what people want to see. Its like a musician reventing themselves 8 albums in. I dont think its as much about that stats as you guys think and stroked gained isn't as complex as people think at all. Get the ball closer to the hole with each shot. The closer you get it, the more likely you are to achieve a smaller proximity with the next shot, so on and so forth. When each statistical strokes gained category is broken down individually its easy to see. Also Phil wants to hit Bombs, wear aviators, and he's 50, could it be its all gravy at this point in his mind? 

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Wasn’t this thread about Phil hitting the new Epic?

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59 minutes ago, Cwing said:

Wasn’t this thread about Phil hitting the new Epic?

It was. Now it’s about as far off topic as Phil is off of the fairway when hitting driver. 

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3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Sounds Like we’re mostly agreeing on his game in general.  I realize it’s a “ guess “.  But an educated one if that’s even possible?  We have to know he’s slacking somewhere.  And at the same time working hard.  And I agree on the mental battle.  I think he allows stats to get to him , and/or the attention that speed brings.  Neither can score in this game alone.  They are tools to be used wisely.  I’ve fallen into this trap too at times.  And find stats to be more of a hindrance than a help.  Not all stats.  But strokes gained for example.  I find it to be a constant “ you suck “ reminder. I don’t stink compared to most.  But I find the comparisons to be much like trying to have the perfect golf swing.  It hinders scoring.  It’s much more wise to choose the path with less clutter and simply play the game.  ( my opinion ) this is for folks like me ( or phil ) who have the artists brain.  Adding all these analytics simply clutters the pathways.   It doesn’t help.  Trackman and strokes gained have hurt Phil, Not helped him , in the overall game ( my opinion ).  The worlds best chefs don’t measure their ingredients...... they simply cook.  

 

 

The worlds best chefs measured their ingredients so much that they do it from memory now. Launch monitors can hurt certain types of players though, I agree. I believe it hurt Tiger when he went down that path with Foley. 

 

Strokes Gained is such a complex system to fully understand and often can lead to what you've talked about. Bryson is such a unique character and personality. I think Bryson shifted the game quite a bit, but that smartest players will be the ones that stick to their games. I think of Webb Simpson who plays his own game and does very well. I think Phil is used to such a high standard of playing that he is searching for something. However, we have to look at the PGA Tour and how good these players have gotten vs when Phil was in his prime.

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phil is back to a maverick today in his latest cameo

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2 hours ago, bigeasy said:

phil is back to a maverick today in his latest cameo

I'm sure Callaway liked all the attention and reports but they have a bit before embargo is lifted and they don't want too much out there. That and he's in Ventus too, so could be really tinkering.

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7 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Sounds Like we’re mostly agreeing on his game in general.  I realize it’s a “ guess “.  But an educated one if that’s even possible?  We have to know he’s slacking somewhere.  And at the same time working hard.  And I agree on the mental battle.  I think he allows stats to get to him , and/or the attention that speed brings.  Neither can score in this game alone.  They are tools to be used wisely.  I’ve fallen into this trap too at times.  And find stats to be more of a hindrance than a help.  Not all stats.  But strokes gained for example.  I find it to be a constant “ you suck “ reminder. I don’t stink compared to most.  But I find the comparisons to be much like trying to have the perfect golf swing.  It hinders scoring.  It’s much more wise to choose the path with less clutter and simply play the game.  ( my opinion ) this is for folks like me ( or phil ) who have the artists brain.  Adding all these analytics simply clutters the pathways.   It doesn’t help.  Trackman and strokes gained have hurt Phil, Not helped him , in the overall game ( my opinion ).  The worlds best chefs don’t measure their ingredients...... they simply cook.  

I couldnt have said it better myself...👏👏👏

what has always made phil amazing, is his natural feel and touch around the course. His approach the last few years feels robotic and forcing things too much. 
 

Also, strokes gained is nice, but it can be flawed too. 

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Look at what else he has..

 

ventus is taking over!!

 

 

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& Wood: Titleist TSi2 Ventus Red 9X
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4-PW Cobra king forged CB KBS $ Taper 130 X flex
Wedges 50, 54, 60 Cleveland ZIPCORE
PUTTER; Kronos release long neck
BALL; Bridgestone BX, OR Taylomade TP5x PIX

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