Provisional ball

[mrshinsa]

if your kids play enough competitive golf you will have ran into similar situations, and I'd like to hear what has been everyone's experience.

 

Player A tees off, and hooks/slices the first ball.  Tess up a provisional ball and hooks/slices into the same direction.  Finds one ball in the rough and announces that it's his first ball.  There is really no definitive answer as to which ball is the actual ball found because he played a Titleist #3 for both shots.  (Or if really bad, the player A argues that his first ball was a Titleist #3 and the second was a Titleist #2).   Argument ensues amongst the players (or parents, if playing kids tournament) until no resolve.  

 

Now the question is what happens at the scoring table?  

 

A.  Golf is a game of integrity and the player A's word is taken against his competitor.  He has played the first ball.

B.  Player A cannot 100% for sure prove that it was his first ball since both balls were Titleist #3 w/o any special mark to differentiate the two, hence the worst score is taken.  He has played the second ball.  

I've seen the outcome go either ways, and it's very frustrating for everyone involved.  

Edited January 1, 2021 by mrshinsa

[leezer99]

Cheaters cheat. They’ll get found out. I’ve played in events where a guy in our group was a big fat liar and went to hit a provisional but another guy in our group made him declare the first number and then told him to play another number even though he was already trying to peg up the same number ball. He then said he only had that number so the guy tossed him a sharpie to add another dot so there was no confusion. 

[Oh Hi Carl]

I had the exact same thing happen this summer in a club championship match. My opponent realized his error and insisted that he deem the ball he found to be his provisional because he didn’t know for sure that it was his first ball. He’s an honorable fellow. 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, mrshinsa said:

if your kids play enough competitive golf you will have ran into similar situations, and I'd like to hear what has been everyone's experience.

 

Player A tees off, and hooks/slices the first ball.  Tess up a provisional ball and hooks/slices into the same direction.  Finds one ball in the rough and announces that it's his first ball.  There is really no definitive answer as to which ball is the actual ball found because he played a Titleist #3 for both shots.  (Or if really bad, the player A argues that his first ball was a Titleist #3 and the second was a Titleist #2).   Argument ensues amongst the players (or parents, if playing kids tournament) until no resolve.  

 

Now the question is what happens at the scoring table?  

 

A.  Golf is a game of integrity and the player A's word is taken against his competitor.  He has played the first ball.

B.  Player A cannot 100% for sure prove that it was his first ball since both balls were Titleist #3 w/o any special mark to differentiate the two, hence the worst score is taken.  He has played the second ball.  

I've seen the outcome go both ways, and it's very frustrating for everyone involved.  

 

The answer is "B".

 

If he can't tell one ball from the other he can play whichever of the 2 he chooses but that ball lies 3 and he's now hitting his 4th shot.

 

Ping @davep043 - that about right ?

[wlm]

Player needs to mark his second ball differently if they are the same number. He should announce this when announcing his provisional. 

[sui generis]

From R18.3:

 

If the player plays a provisional ball into the same general location as the original ball and is unable to identify which ball is which:

 

If only one of the balls is found on the course, that ball is treated as the provisional ball which is now in play.

 

If both balls are found on the course, the player must choose one of the balls to be treated as the provisional ball which is now in play, and the other ball is treated as lost and must not be played.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=7

[MB19]

great thread, thanks for posting this Shin.

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

From R18.3:

 

If the player plays a provisional ball into the same general location as the original ball and is unable to identify which ball is which:

 

If only one of the balls is found on the course, that ball is treated as the provisional ball which is now in play.

 

If both balls are found on the course, the player must choose one of the balls to be treated as the provisional ball which is now in play, and the other ball is treated as lost and must not be played.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=7

 

nsx, you were first in with the right answer. I was merely trying to show the source. (As a referee, I am compelled to work from the principle that it isn't so much what I know, as what I can prove. And, believe you me, in junior golf I've had to "prove" it to many an AJGA parent. Even that's not always enough . . . selling the proof can be demanding once in a great while.)

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

nsx, you were first in with the right answer. I was merely trying to show the source. (As a referee, I am compelled to work from the principle that it isn't so much what I know, as what I can prove. And, believe you me, in junior golf I've had to "prove" it to many an AJGA parent. Even that's not always enough . . . selling the proof can be demanding once in a great while.)

 

No worries. The source is always a good thing to see. 👍

 

I was just too lazy to look it up,,,,,, 

[mrshinsa]

5 hours ago, wlm said:

Player needs to mark his second ball differently if they are the same number. He should announce this when announcing his provisional. 

Of course, but most kids just pull the next ball out of the sleeve and be done with it.  

 

After our past tournament incident, I've told my son to always ask his playing partners to identify their provisional ball before they re-tee.  

 

Also, when I purchase a box of balls, I always mix the numbers so that no two balls of the same numbers are in a sleeve.  For example (1,2,3), (2,3,4), (3,4,1), and (4,1,2)

Edited January 1, 2021 by mrshinsa

[kekoa]

Good thread.  Haven't run into this situation yet, but sounds like fun when it happens. 

[Holy Moses]

Is it common for a player to mark the provisional different than his or her original? 

[mrshinsa]

1 minute ago, Holy Moses said:

Is it common for a player to mark the provisional different than his or her original? 

My limited observation is that it is uncommon.  They just pull the next ball out of the same sleeve.

[Mustard_Tiger]

All of my balls are the same brand and model so I keep one ball in a separate pocket that has a P marked on both sides to indicate it's a provisional. That way I don't have to worry about playing the same number for my provisional and getting them mixed up. Assuming the provisional is needed, once the hole is played out I take the P ball out of play and put it back in the separate pocket.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Mustard_Tiger

[rochestergolfer36]

On 1/1/2021 at 3:01 AM, Mustard_Tiger said:

All of my balls are the same brand and model so I keep one ball in a separate pocket that has a P marked on both sides to indicate it's a provisional. That way I don't have to worry about playing the same number for my provisional and getting them mixed up. Assuming the provisional is needed, once the hole is played out I take the P ball out of play and put it back in the separate pocket.

I like this idea a lot and plan to use it. I’ve never had it happen in a tournament to me as I’m much more careful. 
 

But a few times at my club when playing money games with buddies it’s been close. Thankfully always found both and I can figure it out or just okay the worse of the two. On the first tee I often just grab a slightly used ball from my bag and don’t even pay attention to what number it is since no ones else plays the same brand as me in our group. 

[Noles]

There are a lot of inexperienced golfers in junior tournaments.  As soon as he says he's playing a provisional, but doesn't announce what makes the provisional distinguishable from the original, the fellow competitors need to speak up and ask.

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, rochestergolfer36 said:

I like this idea a lot and plan to use it. I’ve never had it happen in a tournament to me as I’m much more careful. 
 

But a few times at my club when playing money games with buddies it’s been close. Thankfully always found both and I can figure it out or just okay the worse of the two. On the first tee I often just grab a slightly used ball from my bag and don’t even pay attention to what number it is since no ones else plays the same brand as me in our group. 

 

I'm not sure you understand the rule. By choosing the "worse of the two" you are admitting you can't tell the difference.

 

And in that case you lie 3.

[rochestergolfer36]

5 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I'm not sure you understand the rule. By choosing the "worse of the two" you are admitting you can't tell the difference.

 

And in that case you lie 3.

I completely understand this rule and all the rules.  I said it was a casual game (other than cash game we’re playing) between friends so when something unique like this arises we come to an agreeable solution. We follow USGA rules by the book 99% of the  time. 

[nsxguy]

27 minutes ago, rochestergolfer36 said:

I completely understand this rule and all the rules.  I said it was a casual game (other than cash game we’re playing) between friends so when something unique like this arises we come to an agreeable solution. We follow USGA rules by the book 99% of the  time. 

 

Well, I guess if they're your buddies and they don't care,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 👍

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

On 1/1/2021 at 12:20 AM, mrshinsa said:

My limited observation is that it is uncommon.  They just pull the next ball out of the same sleeve.

depends on the player.

 

If Player A feels the other player cheated.  Bring it up at the scoring table.  Refuse to sign the scorecard.

Edited January 4, 2021 by TripleBogeysrbetter

[tiger1873]

53 minutes ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

depends on the player.

 

If Player A feels the other player cheated.  Bring it up at the scoring table.  Refuse to sign the scorecard.

 

In theory this should work but I can guarantee you the tournament official will tell them to work it out and not want to get involved.

 

Best thing to do is bring up issues as soon as they happen and notify an official.  Then just accept what the official says.

 

Also if they cheat they will never get better ultimately they're not competition.  

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

18 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

In theory this should work but I can guarantee you the tournament official will tell them to work it out and not want to get involved.

 

Best thing to do is bring up issues as soon as they happen and notify an official.  Then just accept what the official says.

 

Also if they cheat they will never get better ultimately they're not competition.  

maybe in the kiddo divisions.  I guarantee you when your kids are older and playing national events it happens.

[Abh159]

1 hour ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

If Player A feels the other player cheated.  Bring it up at the scoring table.  Refuse to sign the scorecard.

 

Yeah this sounds good in theory but probably wouldn't work out. If someone refuses to sign a scorecard then they are the one that would get disqualified. Also, the rules tend to side with the player and not the opponent when it comes to judgement calls. Unless Player A can 100% prove that the other person cheated it's that other person's opinion that wins. One of the few times that being a "gentleman's game" can backfire. Anytime Patrick Reed tees it up is a good example of this 🤣.

[tiger1873]

1 minute ago, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

maybe in the kiddo divisions.  I guarantee you when your kids are older and playing national events it happens.

 

I have yet to see any official get between players in any tournament.  It's usually your word against theirs especially if you wait until the scoring table. 

 

If you got a problem notify an official as soon as possible.  Let the official work it out and move on.   Bringing it up at the scoring table just creates arguments.  Ever see a pga or lpga tournament they just sign their cards at the end of it. The reason that happens is all problems have already been worked out prior to the scoring table. Juniors should do the same thing.

 

Cheaters should be called out at the time.

[tiger1873]

15 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

 

Yeah this sounds good in theory but probably wouldn't work out. If someone refuses to sign a scorecard then they are the one that would get disqualified. Also, the rules tend to side with the player and not the opponent when it comes to judgement calls. Unless Player A can 100% prove that the other person cheated it's that other person's opinion that wins. One of the few times that being a "gentleman's game" can backfire. Anytime Patrick Reed tees it up is a good example of this 🤣.

 

If you refuse to sign a score card you should not be disqualified in fact if you believe it wrong you should not sign it because an incorrect one will get you DQ.

 

I believe under the rules of golf the rules committee has to decide and investigate which means they have to decide. Not what your average intern running a tournament wants to get involved in.  

 

My daughter had an issue and was told wrong advice and was forced to sign a card she did agree with.  We found out after that you do not need to sign a card if you believe it is false. It creates a lot work but is an option and you might be tabled a troublemaker.  

 

You really can't expect a kid to stand up to an official like this unprepared. 

 

In the future if this happens she will refuse to sign and take a DQ if she has to but she has the rule books and the page bookmarked if should ever happen again.

Edited January 4, 2021 by tiger1873

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

2 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

If you refuse to sign a score card you should not be disqualified in fact if you believe it wrong you should not sign it because an incorrect one will get you DQ.

 

I believe under the rules of golf the rules committee has to decide and investigate which means they have to decide. Not what your average intern running a tournament wants to get involved in.  

 

My daughter had an issue and was told wrong advice and was forced to sign a card she new was false.  We found out after that you do not need to sign a card if you believe it is false. It creates a lot work but is an option and you might be tabled a troublemaker.  But in our case the official is no longer on that tour. 

 

In the future if this happens she will refuse to sign and take a DQ if she has to but she has the rule books and the page bookmarked if should ever happen again.

its not a dictatorship.  If you have filed a complain with the rules and scoring official.  They can't say you sign it or your DQ'ed.  The rules official can sign it.  It happen more than once in 2020 in tournaments for us (not involved) kids were just in the field.

[Abh159]

According to the rules, a scorecard must be signed by you and your playing partner (or markers if another person has had to take over) and returned as soon as possible on completion of the round. Once it has been returned, no alterations can then be made to the scorecard. If one or both of the required signatures are missing, you will be disqualified under Rule 6-6b.

 

Basically if Player A refuses to sign a card because they think Player B cheated then the official can step in and make a decision. If they decide that there isn't proof that Player B cheated then the official can sign the card if Player A still refuses to sign it. In that situation, Player A would be disqualified. 

 

Like @tiger1873 said it's best to address the situation immediately when it happens and not wait until after the round and all of the scores have already been recorded. Trying to do it after it has occurred isn't going to go well for anyone involved. Especially since the rules say that without proof the player who is being accused gets the benefit of the doubt over the accuser. Basically an "innocent until proven guilty" type of thing. 

[tiger1873]

5 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

According to the rules, a scorecard must be signed by you and your playing partner (or markers if another person has had to take over) and returned as soon as possible on completion of the round. Once it has been returned, no alterations can then be made to the scorecard. If one or both of the required signatures are missing, you will be disqualified under Rule 6-6b.

 

Basically if Player A refuses to sign a card because they think Player B cheated then the official can step in and make a decision. If they decide that there isn't proof that Player B cheated then the official can sign the card if Player A still refuses to sign it. In that situation, Player A would be disqualified. 

 

Like @tiger1873 said it's best to address the situation immediately when it happens and not wait until after the round and all of the scores have already been recorded. Trying to do it after it has occurred isn't going to go well for anyone involved. Especially since the rules say that without proof the player who is being accused gets the benefit of the doubt over the accuser. Basically an "innocent until proven guilty" type of thing. 

 

 

you don't have to sign a card if you do not agree with it.  That would be crazy if you had a sign a card you know is wrong either way you get DQ in that situation.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-3-interpretations.html

 

 

3.3b(1)/2 – Marker May Refuse to Certify Player’s Score Based on a Disagreement

A marker is not required to certify a hole score that he or she believes is wrong.

For example, if there is a dispute between a player and his or her marker about whether there was a breach of the Rules or the player’s score for a hole and the marker reports the facts of the disagreement to the Committee, the marker is not required to certify the hole score for the hole that he or she believes is incorrect.

The Committee will need to consider the available facts and make a decision as to the player’s score on the hole in question. If the marker refuses to certify that hole score, the Committee should accept certification from someone else who saw the player’s actions on the hole in question (such as another player) or the Committee itself can certify the player’s score on that hole.

 

 

 

[mrshinsa]

The topic has taken an interesting turn.  Just with past incident we ran into, the official at the scoring table was about to take the player A's word over his opponent, hence giving him the benefit of the doubt. 

 

To breakdown the event in simplest form:

1.  The official accepts the lower score as the official score.

2.  An opponent refuses the sign the scorecard, (which now is considered to be the official score)

 

I don't see how well this would have played out, even with the rule quoted by Tiger.  It would now be the players word against the official ruling.  

[nsxguy]

On 12/31/2020 at 4:34 PM, mrshinsa said:

if your kids play enough competitive golf you will have ran into similar situations, and I'd like to hear what has been everyone's experience.

 

Player A tees off, and hooks/slices the first ball.  Tess up a provisional ball and hooks/slices into the same direction.  Finds one ball in the rough and announces that it's his first ball.  There is really no definitive answer as to which ball is the actual ball found because he played a Titleist #3 for both shots.  (Or if really bad, the player A argues that his first ball was a Titleist #3 and the second was a Titleist #2).   Argument ensues amongst the players (or parents, if playing kids tournament) until no resolve.  

 

Now the question is what happens at the scoring table?  

 

A.  Golf is a game of integrity and the player A's word is taken against his competitor.  He has played the first ball.

B.  Player A cannot 100% for sure prove that it was his first ball since both balls were Titleist #3 w/o any special mark to differentiate the two, hence the worst score is taken.  He has played the second ball.  

I've seen the outcome go either ways, and it's very frustrating for everyone involved.  

 

12 minutes ago, mrshinsa said:

The topic has taken an interesting turn.  Just with past incident we ran into, the official at the scoring table was about to take the player A's word over his opponent, hence giving him the benefit of the doubt. 

 

To breakdown the event in simplest form:

1.  The official accepts the lower score as the official score.

2.  An opponent refuses the sign the scorecard, (which now is considered to be the official score)

 

I don't see how well this would have played out, even with the rule quoted by Tiger.  It would now be the players word against the official ruling.  

 

What does the signing of the scorecard (Tiger's post) have to do with it ?

 

Did I miss one of the stories ? I only see the original one.

 

In your original post you said "B. Player A cannot 100% for sure prove that it was his first ball since both balls were Titleist #3 w/o any special mark to differentiate the two"

 

Was this NOT a fact,,,, but a supposition on your part ? If a fact, and the player told the official he couldn't prove which ball was which, the Rule is very clear. Case closed.