Modified Senior Tees

[jordan2240]

2 hours ago, platgof said:

Hitting long clubs all day gets old quick for me. Even the pros don't do that. Unfortunately that is the length of some courses. I would like something that "goes through the bag!" 

I can see getting tired of it if every hole required it, but for the courses I play, there is enough variety in length that I still am hitting the short clubs equally, or close to it.  And you can always just move up a tee on the longer holes as desired, unless you are trying to score for handicap purposes.

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by jordan2240

[hybrid25]

On 1/5/2021 at 8:50 AM, Ferguson said:

 

 

It's called cheating. 

 

 

It's only cheating if you post a hc. Most of the people in here are avid golfers and probably keep a hc, so it would be unethical to change tees to one's liking. Although, there are many, probably the majority of all golfers who do not keep a hc and can do whatever they want within their group inre of what tees they play. That's not cheating.

[phil75070]

My group would occasionally move up to the senior tees but played the par 3's (six of them as the course had 6 3s, 6 4s, and 6 5s) always from the longer white tees. We never adjusted the course rating and just posted at the lower course rating, cheating ourselves handicap-wise as I look back. Conversely, when we played the whites and moved up on a couple of holes we would move back on a couple of others to the blues to keep the overall course within 100 yards of the scorecard yardage, which I believe under USGA guidelines would require no adjustment to course rating or slope.

 

At one course I belonged to we had a GM that took the idea of playing to the rated yardage to the extreme. On par 3s, if the pin was back the tees were up and if the pin was up the tees were back such that each and every par 3 always played to its scorecard/rated yardage. For example, if it was a 150 yard par 3 on the scorecard it always played 150 yards to the pin no matter where the pin was (without adjustment for weather conditions obviously).

[Argonne69]

10 hours ago, hybrid25 said:

It's only cheating if you post a hc. Most of the people in here are avid golfers and probably keep a hc, so it would be unethical to change tees to one's liking. Although, there are many, probably the majority of all golfers who do not keep a hc and can do whatever they want within their group inre of what tees they play. That's not cheating.

 

No, it's not cheating. The USGA handicap manual provides the adjustments when playing from non-rated tees. If one correctly calculated the new rating and slope, the score is valid. 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

14 minutes ago, phil75070 said:

My group would occasionally move up to the senior tees but played the par 3's (six of them as the course had 6 3s, 6 4s, and 6 5s) always from the longer white tees. We never adjusted the course rating and just posted at the lower course rating, cheating ourselves handicap-wise as I look back. Conversely, when we played the whites and moved up on a couple of holes we would move back on a couple of others to the blues to keep the overall course within 100 yards of the scorecard yardage, which I believe under USGA guidelines would require no adjustment to course rating or slope.

 

At one course I belonged to we had a GM that took the idea of playing to the rated yardage to the extreme. On par 3s, if the pin was back the tees were up and if the pin was up the tees were back such that each and every par 3 always played to its scorecard/rated yardage. For example, if it was a 150 yard par 3 on the scorecard it always played 150 yards to the pin no matter where the pin was (without adjustment for weather conditions obviously).

 

This was over a decade ago. At that time one of the courses (a pretty short, but pretty interesting course) had a long/uphill par 3. At that time the course had only 2 sets of rated tees and from the back tees the hole was an uphill 190 yards. I was keeping very detailed, by shot (kind of like manual Shotlink stuff), data but this was before rangefinders were common. So I would note the tee position relative to 'the base tee position' (maybe it was +10 yards if the tee was back) and do the same for pin position (so might be -10 yards if the pin was up). 

 

Over time I noticed that this hole yardage was always about 190 yards per my data. That did not happen on any of the other holes on that course or any of the other courses at the club. I don't keep that data and play MUCH less than before, so I don't know if this still happens or not. 

 

dave

Edited January 10, 2021 by DaveLeeNC

[phil75070]

2 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I don't know if this still happens or not. 

I doubt that courses really consider trying to keep the course playing at the rated yardage. Tee and pin placements (other than on a certain tee box or within some zone on the green) seem to be left up to the maintenance people, many of whom are not golfers. 

[DaveLeeNC]

41 minutes ago, phil75070 said:

I doubt that courses really consider trying to keep the course playing at the rated yardage. Tee and pin placements (other than on a certain tee box or within some zone on the green) seem to be left up to the maintenance people, many of whom are not golfers. 

 

There is no doubt that someone (in this case) was doing this intentionally. I think that at that time the club was using some kind of software that prescribed pin locations to minimize total wear on the greens. So my best guess is that whoever was in charge of maintenance on that particular course was a golfer who, for his own reasons, wanted to avoid this hole playing at 210 uphill yards (which it did with a back pin/back tee). 

 

But I really am guessing here. However the pattern was most obvious in my data. 

 

dave

[hybrid25]

5 hours ago, Argonne69 said:

 

No, it's not cheating. The USGA handicap manual provides the adjustments when playing from non-rated tees. If one correctly calculated the new rating and slope, the score is valid. 

 

Ok, I see your point, but do you really think people go through these adjustments, or just play a relaxing game of golf and maybe guesstimate?

[Pepperturbo]

18 hours ago, platgof said:

Hitting long clubs all day gets old quick for me. Even the pros don't do that. Unfortunately that is the length of some courses. I would like something that "goes through the bag!" 

It was beneficial having a relative advise me when learning to not lose focus on long irons.  They are more likely to get you in a scoring position than short irons.  He was right.  That's also the reason I can still play longer tees.  I don't have issues with hitting long irons all-day into greens.

 

Yesterday, testing new iron shafts, hit my 3i off a short 285yd Par 4 tee = 215yds middle left, in benign conditions and flip SW to 10'.  New shafts... Thank you technology and Titleist

[Argonne69]

50 minutes ago, hybrid25 said:

Ok, I see your point, but do you really think people go through these adjustments, or just play a relaxing game of golf and maybe guesstimate?

 

I certainly do. I play a ton of combo tees, rated and self-rated. It's not a ton of work. 

 

[nsxguy]

On 1/4/2021 at 7:44 PM, DrDon said:

 

 

The USGA provides guidelines for adjusting the course rating and slope based on modifications to the golf course.  

 

For example, if you move up from say the white tees, and played shorter yardages on 2 different holes, then you'd modify the course rating and slope of the white tees based on the combined yardage difference on the 2 holes.   If the combined yardage differences is, for example 100 yards, then you would subtract 0.5 from the course rating and subtract 1 from the slope.   The specific numerical guidelines are provided in a table in Appendix G of the USGA's World Handicap System publication.

 

Took a look at Appendix G and it seems as though those adjustments are for temporary changes that will presumably be around for a while, in the golf course itself, subject to approval by the local association -  as opposed to a group of players as the OP is suggesting, wanting to "change it up a bit".

 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by nsxguy

[nsxguy]

On 1/3/2021 at 7:45 AM, phil75070 said:

We typically move up to the senior tees on those two holes ( 8 and 15) and we move back to the blue tees on the short, 291 yard 10th to the keep the overall yardage we play within 100 yards of the rated yardage from the whites.

 

You seem to be mostly disappointed with the course design; a different issue.

 

That said, WOW. In 30+ years of playing mostly serious (i.e. organized/handicap golf) you are the very first person I have ever heard of who took ANY notice of the 18 hole course being within the 100 yard limit of total length.

 

I can honestly say I've never even heard that discussed amongst ANY golfers, never mind actually been concerned with paying attention during a round.

 

I doubt more than 1 in 1,000 golfers (overall) even know there's such a "thing".

 

Here on WRX I imagine a lot more serious players know there IS such a thing but probably don't know what the # actually is.

 

 

 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

4 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Took a look at Appendix G and it seems as thought those adjustments are for temporary changes that will presumably be around for a while, in the golf course itself, subject to approval by the local association -  as opposed to a group of players as the OP is suggesting, wanting to "change it up a bit".

 

About 6 years ago I directed this very question to the USGA where a player, for no specified reason, plays a hole from a different tee than the tee that he/she is otherwise playing. Should you post this hole as a 'hole not played by the RoG' (par plus strokes) or make the yardage based adjustments in Rule 5-2g (the applicable section at the time). The answer was to apply Rule 5-2g. 

 

dave

[DrDon]

5 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Took a look at Appendix G and it seems as thought those adjustments are for temporary changes that will presumably be around for a while, in the golf course itself, subject to approval by the local association -  as opposed to a group of players as the OP is suggesting, wanting to "change it up a bit".

 

Thanks for the note.   I took a closer look at Appendix G and do have the same questions that you do.   

 

Specifically, the following note at the end of the table in Appendix G states the following listed below.   The note seems somewhat ambiguous when it states that a "temporary rating procedure may be used".    I guess you would have to further dig out the definition of a "competition" and "committee".

 

So, if a bunch of golfers want to "change it up a bit" and play a mix of tees, can they declare the round a "competition" and say they are the "committee" for defining the terms of the competition.   Yes, sounds like this might be a stretch.

 

This would be a good question for the USGA.

 

 

 

Note: If playing a combination of different sets of tees, a current Course Rating and Slope Rating must be available to submit an acceptable score. If the Committee in charge of a competition has used a combination of tees for a competition course, this temporary rating procedure may be used, but this procedure is not a substitute for a formal or permanent Course Rating and Slope Rating.

[DrDon]

8 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

About 6 years ago I directed this very question to the USGA where a player, for no specified reason, plays a hole from a different tee than the tee that he/she is otherwise playing. Should you post this hole as a 'hole not played by the RoG' (par plus strokes) or make the yardage based adjustments in Rule 5-2g (the applicable section at the time). The answer was to apply Rule 5-2g. 

 

dave

 

Thanks for your comment Dave.

 

I was our Club's handicap chair for several years under the old USGA handicap system.   I'm wondering how much specific wording has changed now that we're under the World Handicap System.

 

Perhaps your question should be re-submitted to the USGA for verification under the WHS.

[James the Hogan Fan]

5 hours ago, phil75070 said:

I doubt that courses really consider trying to keep the course playing at the rated yardage. Tee and pin placements (other than on a certain tee box or within some zone on the green) seem to be left up to the maintenance people, many of whom are not golfers. 

 

You might be surprised. Sample size of 1 course but our tees are on a rotation as they move daily away from the previous day's divots that puts 6 frontish, 6 middleish, and 6 backish of the box (this schedule specifically designed with daily overall course length in mind), while trying for 6-6-6 for flags in each of the three zones of our green. 

 

Sometimes a tee is placed forward and the flag cut in front and the GM comes calling saying stuff about handicaps and course length. (It only ever comes up on par 3's, naturally). Sometimes someone has to go out again and move one or the other. 

[Naptime]

At my age I play from whatever tee looks reasonable.  On some par 3s it may even be a choice for a longer shot.  Have never kept a handicap and don't intend to start at this point.

[James the Hogan Fan]

5 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

There is no doubt that someone (in this case) was doing this intentionally. I think that at that time the club was using some kind of software that prescribed pin locations to minimize total wear on the greens. So my best guess is that whoever was in charge of maintenance on that particular course was a golfer who, for his own reasons, wanted to avoid this hole playing at 210 uphill yards (which it did with a back pin/back tee). 

 

But I really am guessing here. However the pattern was most obvious in my data. 

 

dave

 

I can tell you that James the hole setting maintenance guy has, on occasion, set himself easy pins when he knows he's going to play after work.

 

Also, you get one member who plays occasionally and draws the back-back combo or the back tee-sucker pin over water combo a few times in a row just because those are the days he happened to play... This guy complains to the right person and suddenly certian tee/pin combos get banned.

 

Funny that no one complains when the hole is cut in a bowl on the front and the tees are 15 yards up...

[phil75070]

15 hours ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

 

You might be surprised. Sample size of 1 course but our tees are on a rotation as they move daily away from the previous day's divots that puts 6 frontish, 6 middleish, and 6 backish of the box (this schedule specifically designed with daily overall course length in mind), while trying for 6-6-6 for flags in each of the three zones of our green. 

 

Sometimes a tee is placed forward and the flag cut in front and the GM comes calling saying stuff about handicaps and course length. (It only ever comes up on par 3's, naturally). Sometimes someone has to go out again and move one or the other. 

Oh our pins go in some form of rotation among front, middle and back, but the tees are haphazard and placed at the whim of the guy mowing the tee box. 

[acemandrake]

On 1/5/2021 at 8:19 PM, Pepperturbo said:

Yep.  Based on my lifestyle, lots of people don't buy it.  I am regularly told I look 50ish.  Outstanding genes I suppose, or it's a lifetime of athletics, and working out.  It's surely not my eating habits... LOL

 

"70 is the new 60.  And 80 is still 80"

[596]

I used to be that maintenance guy.  If I knew I was playing I picked a few pins that I liked and a few tee boxes I liked!!😂.