Clearing the Hips

[swagee]

On 1/4/2021 at 8:30 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

1. Vague, so mostly meaningless

2. What’s important is to move the hips correctly...for you personally.  That can be a long discussion depending on the instance.

3. Poor hip movement makes things much harder.

4.  In the context that’s most often used, which is getting them wide open at impact, yes, you can have a good swing without doing that.

 

Are u THE Monte on Youtube? 
Been watching ur vids for a while now and really enjoy them, mate.

Thanks for the great contents; they are helpful and easy to digest.

Pls keep up the good works.

Cheers, mate.

[DShepley]

On 1/5/2021 at 1:13 AM, straightshot7 said:

 

Every single top player seems to have their hips "open" at impact. If you are looking to maximize your "dynamics" and your distance/accuracy you generally have to have the club trailing from the inside and have your hips/shoulders opening through impact.

 

This is the same as asking if you need to open your hips to throw a football a long way. yeah, if you want to throw the football far you will clear/open your hips. 

 

Do they need to be "wide open"? No. But if your hips don't open at all, generally you have to throw/flip/stand up to get the club head to the ball. 

 

In general, the most athletic/efficient swing will involve opening of the hips on the downswing with club/arms/hands trailing. 

These guys here are and were top players and their hips are relatively square at impact.  It all depends how you release the club in my opinion.  If you have a rolling release, your hips need to be less open at impact.  If any of these players below had wide open hips at impact we would never have heard of them.  It's about match-ups.  You can be in the Hall Of Fame with either, (as shown), but the other parts of the swing need to match up to make it work.  In my view if you tell the average amateur to focus on clearing his hips, he is most likely to slide them, increase right tilt too early and get stuck way under plane......good luck improving while fighting blocks and hooks, fats and thins. 

[11bravoveteran]

Those players were still open compared to a ton of amateur golfers..

 

 

[bogeypro]

2 hours ago, DShepley said:

These guys here are and were top players and their hips are relatively square at impact.  It all depends how you release the club in my opinion.  If you have a rolling release, your hips need to be less open at impact.  If any of these players below had wide open hips at impact we would never have heard of them.  It's about match-ups.  You can be in the Hall Of Fame with either, (as shown), but the other parts of the swing need to match up to make it work.  In my view if you tell the average amateur to focus on clearing his hips, he is most likely to slide them, increase right tilt too early and get stuck way under plane......good luck improving while fighting blocks and hooks, fats and thins. 

Best post on the thread ^^ 

[straightshot7]

14 hours ago, DShepley said:

These guys here are and were top players and their hips are relatively square at impact.  It all depends how you release the club in my opinion.  If you have a rolling release, your hips need to be less open at impact.  If any of these players below had wide open hips at impact we would never have heard of them.  It's about match-ups.  You can be in the Hall Of Fame with either, (as shown), but the other parts of the swing need to match up to make it work.  In my view if you tell the average amateur to focus on clearing his hips, he is most likely to slide them, increase right tilt too early and get stuck way under plane......good luck improving while fighting blocks and hooks, fats and thins. 

 

I'm not exactly positive (is that jack or Johnny Miller?) who those two guys on the right are, but their hips appear to be somewhat open. 

 

Their belt buckles don't appear to be pointed at the ball...they are slightly open.

 

Like you said "less open".

 

Did I ever say the hips needed to be "wide open"? No, I didn't. 

 

Here's a different pic of Phil where his hips are more open:

 

 

My ONLY point was that in general, the hips should open on the downswing. For a good, powerful swing, the hips are normally open at impact. Whether it's 5% open or 50% open. I never claimed how open they needed to be. 

 

What you "tell an amateur" is a totally different subject! I was just answering the OP's question. OP didn't ask what we should tell an amateur to do...

 

Unless you think the hips should be square or closed at impact, we don't even disagree...

Edited January 7, 2021 by straightshot7

[Teekman]

Just hit a personal best +3.9 Index and in pursuit of getting better I’ve been tinkering with hip movement, rotation, and every dam buzzword for the last month. My swing got worse and honestly was developing an Over the Top move which is the exact opposite of what all the buzz teaching tries to fix. Then said f*** it, I’m gonna swing with my arms ... and honestly never have swung better. Sometimes I think people underestimate the natural movements our body makes and focus way too much on creating textbook swings. Just my two cents, focus on a couple of positions and let your body make it happen naturally.

[straightshot7]

23 hours ago, freowho said:

How much clearing is Jack doing here? How deep are his hips?

And he is not early extending. 

 

 

 

 

Notice he's having to pop up/lift the back heal to get the club through.

 

And if we had a better angle/better quality photo, I think you'd see that his belt buckle is pointing left of the ball. He is clearing his hips, just not as much as usual.

 

But wow, you found one photo that doesn't show significant hip opening at impact. I can post 1 million pros with open hips at impact. So what's your point?

 

Oh look here's Jack. And I can see his left butt cheek...

 

[freowho]

4 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

 

Notice he's having to pop up/lift the back heal to get the club through.

 

And if we had a better angle/better quality photo, I think you'd see that his belt buckle is pointing left of the ball. He is clearing his hips, just not as much as usual.

 

But wow, you found one photo that doesn't show significant hip opening at impact. I can post 1 million pros with open hips at impact. So what's your point?

 

Oh look here's Jack. And I can see his left butt cheek...

 

Firstly I would like to say that I don't think Nicklaus had a model swing but he had good concepts. I posted his picture to show the myth that is clearing the hips. He looks cramped, probably because he's trying to stand parallel to the target line and have the ball inside his left foot. These setup "fundamentals" make it difficult for many to play the game and are the main reason people think the hips have to be cleared, the hips have to be deep or the club has to be shallowed. All making the game more difficult and a waste of time. Just get rid of alignment sticks and none of those things have to be done. None of Bobby Jones, Byron Nelson, Sam Snead, Ben Hogan or Mickey Wright had their feet parallel to the target line. Somewhere in the history of golf coaching some left brainer thought it was important to have the feet parallel to the target line and most of the industry swallowed it. Now we have a screening process. The first thing every golf coach does it put an alignment stick down and then proceeds to tell you all the compromises you have to make to hit a good shot. 

 

"Clearing the hips" suggests they are a hinderance and should be out of the way. Nothing could be further from the truth. The legs and hips play an active role but they don't lead the club or generate clubhead speed. They "counterbalance the strike" so the hands and arms can generate more speed.

 

Of the pictures you posted the one I like the most is Matthew Wolff. He's using both legs to push back against the strike. The one I dislike the most is Justin Thomas who is a terrible driver of the ball under pressure. He looks like he is trying to "get out of the way". 

[johnrobison]

On 1/4/2021 at 7:56 AM, Lobby said:

What does it mean?

 

why is it important?

 

what happens if you don’t clear them?

 

can one make a good swing without clearing them?

 

 

Don't conflate "clearing" with "opening" or "rotating". What needs to be clear is your trail hip - it needs to remain out of the way, so to speak - and not go into extension too soon. The other things, opening/rotating, are effects.

[DShepley]

3 hours ago, freowho said:

Firstly I would like to say that I don't think Nicklaus had a model swing but he had good concepts. I posted his picture to show the myth that is clearing the hips. He looks cramped, probably because he's trying to stand parallel to the target line and have the ball inside his left foot. These setup "fundamentals" make it difficult for many to play the game and are the main reason people think the hips have to be cleared, the hips have to be deep or the club has to be shallowed. All making the game more difficult and a waste of time. Just get rid of alignment sticks and none of those things have to be done. None of Bobby Jones, Byron Nelson, Sam Snead, Ben Hogan or Mickey Wright had their feet parallel to the target line. Somewhere in the history of golf coaching some left brainer thought it was important to have the feet parallel to the target line and most of the industry swallowed it. Now we have a screening process. The first thing every golf coach does it put an alignment stick down and then proceeds to tell you all the compromises you have to make to hit a good shot. 

 

"Clearing the hips" suggests they are a hinderance and should be out of the way. Nothing could be further from the truth. The legs and hips play an active role but they don't lead the club or generate clubhead speed. They "counterbalance the strike" so the hands and arms can generate more speed.

 

Of the pictures you posted the one I like the most is Matthew Wolff. He's using both legs to push back against the strike. The one I dislike the most is Justin Thomas who is a terrible driver of the ball under pressure. He looks like he is trying to "get out of the way". 

Anyone's swing can be a model swing and Jack was the best of the best.  The trouble is that people see elements of a swing and try to model just that, (Wolff's takeaway for example), when the swing only works because of it's entirety.  Chasing the ideal of a model swing is very dangerous because everyone's body moves slightly different and for each individual to be successful they need to find the pluses and minuses that make their swing effective.  Jack used a rolling release with his handle higher at impact than it was at address, to make this effective, he played a shape, (high fade), rather than trying to hit it straight, (his club squared to the path rapidly at the bottom).  His body positions are a reaction to the upright nature of his swing and are what made his swing effective...his body motion will NOT work for someone who swings around their body and squares the face to the path early in the down swing and controls it with their body rotation, (McIlroy, Sergio, Wolff, etc.).  

[dap]

I think “clearing the hips” was coined back in the day by the old pros and teachers before we had more knowledge about the actual anatomical movements in a good golf swing.

 

My opinion of what they really meant was not a spinning of the hips as open as possible by impact. It’s the extension of the hips after they squat and compress down in the transition. That extension feels like humping the target with your pelvis which gets the hips open and they describe it as “clearing the hips”. Good players, in particular the longer hitters does the squat and extend naturally. Mcilroy who is probably the longest pound for pound on tour does it very noticeably.

 

[ALIF]

This is one of the best, most educational threads I've seen on here in a long time. It's also been very civil. Thank you!

[golfarb1]

Jack Nicklaus is a poor example of pelvic / hip rotation , since he suffered from degenerative  hip disease resulting in the replacement of his left hip in 1999 when he was 59. He has commented that this hip bothered him for at least a decade prior to his hip replacement . Whether he suffered from imbalances in IR and ER of his hips is unknowable, but it is reasonable to assume that the manner in which he used his lower body during his swing contributed to his diseased hip.

 

 

 

[stingerfade]

I can’t wait to try the “shart drill” 

[Jeselnik]

Start using hand controlled pivot and you can dismiss 99% of this garbage.  Hands direct the orchestra.  Try to throw a ball or do a cartwheel using pivot controlled hands..........LMAO.

 

JNIK

[tjcarsillo]

Clearing the hips messed me up for a long time. It’s a bad terminology. My left hip feels more pushing behind me/getting my right hip deep in the backswing and my left hip deep in the downswing. All “clearing the hips” did for me was early extend, slide, and push my pelvis toward the target. With that being said, I believe clubface has a lot to do with how our body moves on the downswing. We naturally want to square it up, and our body reacts to that. You can’t rotate hips/chest open with an open clubface at p6 or you’ll be even further right. Same thing with a closed face, you’ll naturally rotate open more and push the handle forward to get the clubface back to square if its too closed coming in. 

[golfing_penguin]

On 1/7/2021 at 6:24 AM, Teekman said:

Just hit a personal best +3.9 Index and in pursuit of getting better I’ve been tinkering with hip movement, rotation, and every dam buzzword for the last month. My swing got worse and honestly was developing an Over the Top move which is the exact opposite of what all the buzz teaching tries to fix. Then said f*** it, I’m gonna swing with my arms ... and honestly never have swung better. Sometimes I think people underestimate the natural movements our body makes and focus way too much on creating textbook swings. Just my two cents, focus on a couple of positions and let your body make it happen naturally.

 

I like the baseball drill for this same reason. If you hold the club lightly and swing 'just' fast enough to let the club start to release and rotate it does that naturally and pretty often the clubface is square as anything at impact. From there if you bend down to golf posture it's the right amount of open for that person and it's all natural physics

[getitdaily]

For some, the hips clear by way of the upper body being the lead. 

[lowballer1273]

3 hours ago, getitdaily said:

For some, the hips clear by way of the upper body being the lead. 

I believe you are correct. For me, if my task or goal at the start of the swing is simply to hit down on and compress the ball as hard as I can, using my lead shoulder/upper body as the driving/dominant force, my left hip magically clears out of the way all by itself exactly as it should. So, it would seem that the clearing of the lead hip is simply the result, not the cause. As with most things related to the golf swing, this is likely different for everyone. In the first video posted on this thread, Malaska covered this with his drill where he held the club in his right hand, swung down into the impact zone, and AS A RESULT, the left leg/hip cleared out of the way. Very interesting and very good thread.

[ALIF]

On 1/7/2021 at 8:19 AM, dap said:

I think “clearing the hips” was coined back in the day by the old pros and teachers before we had more knowledge about the actual anatomical movements in a good golf swing.

 

My opinion of what they really meant was not a spinning of the hips as open as possible by impact. It’s the extension of the hips after they squat and compress down in the transition. That extension feels like humping the target with your pelvis which gets the hips open and they describe it as “clearing the hips”. Good players, in particular the longer hitters does the squat and extend naturally. Mcilroy who is probably the longest pound for pound on tour does it very noticeably.

 

I like this.

Goat humping=bad

Target humping=good

[golfsticks]

Too much unneeded worry about clearing hips.  The pelvic structure's motivation to lead is established at address when lumbar and cervical areas are not stacked. 

[Lobby]

21 hours ago, golfsticks said:

Too much unneeded worry about clearing hips.  The pelvic structure's motivation to lead is established at address when lumbar and cervical areas are not stacked. 

 

That's probably true for golfers who naturally use their lower bodies well.

Unfortunately there are many of us whose lower bodies seem frozen and swing mostly with our arms.    We need help moving our legs / hips.   Thus the thread.

[Nels55]

38 minutes ago, Lobby said:

 

That's probably true for golfers who naturally use their lower bodies well.

Unfortunately there are many of us whose lower bodies seem frozen and swing mostly with our arms.    We need help moving our legs / hips.   Thus the thread.

On the other hand maybe you are doing what you should be doing with your hips:

Maybe you don't need any help with your lower body!

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

On the other hand maybe you are doing what you should be doing with your hips:

Maybe you don't need any help with your lower body!

Well said

[Rbsiedsc]

2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Well said

so basically, however you start your swing and as long as you stay in sequence properly with shifting your pressures, you are swinging the club properly? Several people I talk to mention that I am not getting enough right hip rotation which makes me feel like I need to over rotate to swing properly. Part of me want to tell them to buzz off and just focus on your NTC words...

[Jeselnik]

On 1/4/2021 at 10:56 AM, Lobby said:

What does it mean? ................shift+turn

 

why is it important?..............consistency, accuracy, power

 

what happens if you don’t clear them?  high rt shoulder, stuck rt elbow, lose posture

 

can one make a good swing without clearing them?  good, no.  Serviceable, yes with practice and talent.

JNIK

On 1/4/2021 at 10:56 AM, Lobby said:

 

 

 

[Lobby]

On 1/11/2021 at 12:18 PM, Nels55 said:

On the other hand maybe you are doing what you should be doing with your hips:

Maybe you don't need any help with your lower body!

 

The guy in this video moves / rotates his hips waaay more than I do.

Well, than I did, before starting this thread.

🙂

[betarhoalphadelta]

18 minutes ago, Lobby said:

 

The guy in this video moves / rotates his hips waaay more than I do.

Well, than I did, before starting this thread.

🙂

My thought exactly. 

 

Whether you're talking about his closed stance drill or his full 7 iron shot, you can see that he's got fairly open hips at impact. 

 

I think a lot of players screw themselves up with overt focus on clearing the hips, just as a lot of players screw themselves up with overt focus on any single swing aspect.

 

But open hips at impact, properly sequenced with the rest of the swing, are IMHO important. This video seems to state that 82% of players are "upper core" and thus should focus on the arms/hands, but the video itself shows a player that is clearly rotating well and has open hips at impact. I worry the words will confuse people if they don't realize that the video shows something different. 

[Cliffy2020]

Larry Bird looks pretty good at impact here 👍🏼

[betarhoalphadelta]

Saw this and tried it at the range...

 

 

Stood maybe 8-9" from the ball. Choked down like on the video. 

 

First attempt: chunked it. Second, third, and fourth attempts I focused on rotating the hips and made perfectly clean contact. 

 

That's from a 23 cap who is right now struggling to work through proper hip motion. It was... illuminating.