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Swing Weights for Tall Players


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9 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Not sure who you talked to but they certainly didn't understand the concept very well or at least don't have any real experience with that type of build.

 

 

Not sure how best to respond to this! I just re-read my response and I'm pretty comfortable with it 😂 

 

I am willing to learn! Are there any good resources from recognised club builders that discuss/promote 3/8" builds?

 

 

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I'm 6'4" with 39" wrist to floor and I've been fit anywhere from +0.5 to +2.5" from a number of very well regarded fitters (+2.5" was from The Leadbetter Academy!). In the past I've played at a high l

Try starting out with the wedges at the +2" (where the shorter length is going to be more problematic but weight isn't) and then use shorter length increments e.g. 3/8" instead of 1/2".   That will ea

Have been watching this thread and was a big fan and participant in the previous thread around fitting taller golfers.     I am 6'4 but have a 39.5 inch wrist to floor measurement and was fi

FWIW, I’m 6’3” and WTF is 38.5”. To lower swingweight, I ended up using single-length iron heads (Sterling) in 7-LW and play all these clubs at standard 6-iron length (lofts tweaked to get proper gaps, 85g graphite shafts, built at D-3). For the 3-6 irons, I went to hybrids at variable length (1” over standard).

 

That said, check the single length offerings from Cobra, Wishon, Sterling, etc., to get lighter headweights (usually around 274 grams) for longer builds and lower swingweights.

 

 

 

 

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If it helps, I am 6'2" skinny dude and WTF is 37.  My irons are 1" over standard and are 1* flat.  Shafts are Elevate tours and i think are around 120g.

 

I went in that particular direction (as opposed to using shorter with more upright lie angle) because in my mind's eye, I am not too close to the ball.  If I use a shorter club that is more upright, for whatever reason, my eyes don't like it.  I have never figured out why that it is.  It just is.

 

Clubs feel heavier than a standard club I would guess.  But, I use heavy grips (jumbomax tours) which I think lower the perceived weight of the club.  So, maybe that balances the longer shaft thing.  I am not einstein on this.  I just know what feels good and what my eye likes; and I know what does not feel good and what my eye does not like.

 

i think part of it may deal with when I see a short player, the angle created by their body and the club looks very natural where being 'handcuffed' doesn't happen.  If me being taller uses the same length, that that angle is much smaller and I feel like I am on top of the ball and bending over excessively.  With a standard club, it seems to me it is easier to get handcuffed.

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I was measured for +1” but my fitter recommended at the time to just do .5” for better control. I think I just grip it closer to the butt end then most and compensated. Maybe try measuring out an inch and try pretending that they are just an inch over std. it seems as others stated it’s kind of closer to the limit.

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13 hours ago, dry664 said:

 

Not sure how best to respond to this! I just re-read my response and I'm pretty comfortable with it 😂 

 

I am willing to learn! Are there any good resources from recognised club builders that discuss/promote 3/8" builds?

 

 

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from and background which might help better formulate a response.  Nothing wrong either way.  But does "being comfortable with it" mean you have the knowledge and understanding to back what you said yourself, or is that based on the trust or faith in the people you discussed it with?  

 

The first point - shorter length => lighter swing weight (with no change in head weight) is about as basic as you can get for club building / fitting knowledge.   Again, I don't mean to be insulting but disputing that clearly shows some misunderstanding exists.  Either in the proposed methodology or in a lack of a basic understanding of the swing weight concept or scale usage.

 

However, the second point about the effect on gaping is a common and understandable concern from those who first hear about it (regardless of the depth of their knowledge of club building) but have no actual experience with it.

 

@Howard_Jones and Tom Wishon are the most well known ones here.  Tons of discussions about it here in the forum - including plenty of individual's posting about the actual results after having tried it (after it being recommended).  You can probably find many of them through a simple search of the forum.  It was originally formulated many (many) years ago as a means to make it easier and help produce a 'poor man's" MOI matched set (as opposed to a swing weight matched set).  Largely called that because MOI measuring machines are very expensive compared to swing weight scales so not a common purchase among builders.    So if you want to do a bit more research, best to search for "MOI matching irons" or "poor man's MOI match"

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from and background which might help better formulate a response.  Nothing wrong either way.  But does "being comfortable with it" mean you have the knowledge and understanding to back what you said yourself, or is that based on the trust or faith in the people you discussed it with?  

 

Don't worry, Im not taking it the wrong way 🙂 I do feel like I have enough experience to comment as club length has been a challenge for me for about 25 years. As stated earlier, I've played at a pretty high level (3x NCAA D1 individual wins, Challenge Tour for 3 years, played in a handful of European Tour events). I never qualified as a PGA pro and Im not a trained clubfitter. I quit pro golf 16 years ago, since then I work a desk job, have a family, play twice a month if I'm lucky and have managed to maintain a handicap of between scratch and +3.

I feel like I'm qualified to comment because of

a) my height/arm length

b) I've been led down many wrong paths by experts

c) Ive tried to do this both while playing full time and trying to earn a living, as well as playing infrequently and trying to maintain a good playing standard

d) My driver swingspeed is currently around 105mph and carry a 6I around 170yards, so probably more relatable than the average Golfwrx swing speed 🤣

 

 

5 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

The first point - shorter length => lighter swing weight (with no change in head weight) is about as basic as you can get for club building / fitting knowledge.   Again, I don't mean to be insulting but disputing that clearly shows some misunderstanding exists.  Either in the proposed methodology or in a lack of a basic understanding of the swing weight concept or scale usage.

 

Thats not what I said, I said it won't make your heaviest club any lighter. If you have a PW at +2" which swingweights at E8, it doesn't matter whether you go 1/2", 3/8" or one length. Your PW is still E8. Yes, by going 3/8" your longer irons have lighter swingweights, are shorter and may be more 'manageable' for certain players, but certain players may also have ballflight/gapping issues. Plus you'll end up with something like a 10 point swingweight range between 4I and PW. To me, based on my experiences, that doesn't sound optimal.

The point I made was that instead of starting at +2", do what you can to reduce it i.e. figure out the shortest playable length of the shortest club you'll make a full swing with.

 

 

6 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

However, the second point about the effect on gaping is a common and understandable concern from those who first hear about it (regardless of the depth of their knowledge of club building) but have no actual experience with it.

 

I have experience with it whenever I use a launch monitor. I see that swinging a shorter club will produce a lower swing speed, and with that less launch and spin.

I have also proven this to myself by building a 3 iron the same length as my 4 iron that produced only a 5 yard gap and a much lower flight. I then reduced the loft which made the ballflight less functional and didn't increase carry.

 

6 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

@Howard_Jones and Tom Wishon are the most well known ones here.  Tons of discussions about it here in the forum - including plenty of individual's posting about the actual results after having tried it (after it being recommended).  You can probably find many of them through a simple search of the forum.  It was originally formulated many (many) years ago as a means to make it easier and help produce a 'poor man's" MOI matched set (as opposed to a swing weight matched set).  Largely called that because MOI measuring machines are very expensive compared to swing weight scales so not a common purchase among builders.    So if you want to do a bit more research, best to search for "MOI matching irons" or "poor man's MOI match"

 

I did have a look around on the internet and on here last night last night to understand more about 3/8" gapping. and MOI matching.

I really like the fundamental concept of MOI matching but I'd need to do some research and maybe take an engineering degree to fully buy into it! Past that point I cant imagine how hard it would be build an MOI matched set. I found a Tom Wishon video on Youtube last night where he described MOI matching as the 'icing on the cake' after all the other fitting parameters have been determined, and I think the OP and most of the other guys following this thread aren't quite at that point yet, they are looking to get some of the more fundamental aspects of club fitting locked down first.

Regarding 3/8" gapping, you're right, there's a bunch of threads on Golfwrx where people are endorsing the concept. As above, I struggle to see past the swingweight range throughout the set and think the tall player should look first to reduce the length of their clubs. If a 10 point swingweight range = MOI matching, then as above, based on my experience this doesn't sound optimal.

From personal experience Im very aware of the placebo effect in golf....You pour hours into sourcing and making a set of 3/8" yourself, then you're motivated to test and see how they perform. Then you play well and so it must be the clubs?...But you've just spent the last 3 months practicing  harder than you ever have done...is that a fair test?? I'm interested if the player sticks with the build for 2+ years, I'm interested if they eventually replace that set with another 3/8" build and I'm really interested if that player plays on the PGA Tour and is winning tournaments.

 

I'm off to the WITB section now, any players bags I should be looking at??

 

 

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59 minutes ago, dry664 said:

Thats not what I said, I said it won't make your heaviest club any lighter. If you have a PW at +2" which swingweights at E8, it doesn't matter whether you go 1/2", 3/8" or one length. Your PW is still E8. Yes, by going 3/8" your longer irons have lighter swingweights, are shorter and may be more 'manageable' for certain players, but certain players may also have ballflight/gapping issues. Plus you'll end up with something like a 10 point swingweight range between 4I and PW. To me, based on my experiences, that doesn't sound optimal.

The point I made was that instead of starting at +2", do what you can to reduce it i.e. figure out the shortest playable length of the shortest club you'll make a full swing with.

 

 

Sounds like a little bit of miscommunication then.  Because the original OP for which the suggestion was made was pretty clearly struggling with the longer clubs.  And while it's not guaranteed, the chances are extremely high that the reason for the stuggle (again for the OP) was the high swing weight due to the longer build.   Due to the nature of how MOI matching relates to swing weight matching, even if the SW are the same, people stuggling the longer irons and not the shorter ones is actually not uncommon.   So that's the issue he was trying to find a solution to and problem for which the suggestion was targeting.   It was also the point which you seemed to be trying to contradict.

 

Is it an answer to everyone's problems?  of course not.  It was an answer tailored to the OP based on details of his problems.   Many people do very well and even prefer SW matched sets.  For me, I don't do it myself.   But it has been proven to work well for many, particularly those that both need the longer lengths but dont' have the strength to manage the heavier swing weight in the longer clubs.

 

 

Quote

I did have a look around on the internet and on here last night last night to understand more about 3/8" gapping. and MOI matching.

I really like the fundamental concept of MOI matching but I'd need to do some research and maybe take an engineering degree to fully buy into it! Past that point I cant imagine how hard it would be build an MOI matched set. I found a Tom Wishon video on Youtube last night where he described MOI matching as the 'icing on the cake' after all the other fitting parameters have been determined, and I think the OP and most of the other guys following this thread aren't quite at that point yet, they are looking to get some of the more fundamental aspects of club fitting locked down first.

 

It doesn't take an engineering degree to really understand especially if you are already comfortable with swing weights.  All it takes is a little trial and error testing.   But it might be helpful to understand that the origins of the swing weight concept was to try and develop an easier way to get an MOI matched set of clubs.   Previously, the builders would have to go through various math computations to determine how to manage and adjust the head weight to keep the feel the same over the set.  Of course it wasn't the most accurate way to get the MOI match - but it turned out to be close enough to make it popular.   It (the accuracy as it pertains to creating an MOI match) is even worse now since it was never intended to be able deal with things like grip weight changes and shaft weight or shaft balance point changes.     So the first step to understanding true MOI matching is really the understandings of the imperfections in the swing weight system.

 

Another interesting factoid (if memory serves) is that during the development of the swing weight scale, the now commonly used 14" fulcrum point was found to work well with stronger professionals but a shorter 12" fulcrum was found to work better for the amateur players.  And the shorter fulcrum would mean the need for less head weight in the longer clubs to match the shorter clubs.

 

 

 

Quote

Regarding 3/8" gapping, you're right, there's a bunch of threads on Golfwrx where people are endorsing the concept. As above, I struggle to see past the swingweight range throughout the set and think the tall player should look first to reduce the length of their clubs. If a 10 point swingweight range = MOI matching, then as above, based on my experience this doesn't sound optimal.

From personal experience Im very aware of the placebo effect in golf....You pour hours into sourcing and making a set of 3/8" yourself, then you're motivated to test and see how they perform. Then you play well and so it must be the clubs?...But you've just spent the last 3 months practicing  harder than you ever have done...is that a fair test?? I'm interested if the player sticks with the build for 2+ years, I'm interested if they eventually replace that set with another 3/8" build and I'm really interested if that player plays on the PGA Tour and is winning tournaments.

 

I'm off to the WITB section now, any players bags I should be looking at??

 

 

 

No doubt that testing different ideas and fits is not easy to do and there are not always clear answers even after testing.   Even w/o practice the swing can change from day to day and round to round - especially among the amateurs.  I think the better players are more likely to be able to trust sense of feel.   But I'm also not a fan of using the the tour pros as an example of what to do or what ideas are best.   Those guys are good because of natural talent and countless hours of practice, not because of the equipment decisions.  Given enough time to adjust to a change and they likely could make almost anything work well.   Classic example is whether Bryson gets the results he does because of the one length decision or despite it?  It's an unanswerable question although I personally don't doubt that if he had spent as much time and effort with a more standard set of irons, he would be just as good and be wining just as much.

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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46 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

Classic example is whether Bryson gets the results he does because of the one length decision or despite it?  It's an unanswerable question although I personally don't doubt that if he had spent as much time and effort with a more standard set of irons, he would be just as good and be whining just as much.

 

I corrected your typo above 👆 🤣

 

My posts were related to later posts, not directly to the OP's original post...

 

Going back and re-reading the OP's original post, I think the swing weights are a red flag. Best course of action is to go a clubfitter with a launch monitor:

1. Determine if your calculated swingweights are accurate

2. Check club lofts

3. Determine launch/spin parameters of 3/4/5/6 irons

 

If there's a 4 swingweight difference between 4 and 5 iron, there's every chance they aren't a matched set. Possibly the original owner purchased a standard length 5-AW set (with standard weight heads), lengthened them, liked them and then purchased a 3 and 4 irons without realising these had lightweight heads.

Theres also a chance the lofts aren't where they should be.

 

Past that point, get yourself a roll of lead tape and go nuts. You should probably start by resolving the swingweight and distance drop off in the 3/4 irons. I would also recommend exploring whether you can play something shorter, even 1/4" makes a big difference to how playable clubs are.

There's no hard and fast rule about matching your iron swingweights to other clubs. If you are happy to continue to play irons at E0, I wouldn't hesitate trying your driver up to D6. Once you've figured out the additional driver headweight required you can purchase OEM weights direct from the manufacturer/clubfitter or get a clubfitter to use hotmelt.

 

 

 

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I'm 6'5". But I can't play anything that's too short.  My SW is 37.5 (+2.25"). My driver is 45.25" (+/- standard).  My 5 iron is 39.75 (+1.75").

 

I've found swing weight needs to be generally lighter in the longer/high speed clubs and heavier in the short/slow speed clubs.  It's really just a scaled measurement of mass vs length.  So, it's helpful to be similar for similarly designed clubs, but it's of no help to be the same throughout the bag.

 

So, I'm at E3 for my lob wedge, descending to E0 for my wedge. I could probably play lob and sand wedges fine at F swing weights.  Then D8 to D6 from the irons 9-5 (and a 2 driving iron).  Then D4-D5 in the lighter shafted woods and close to D2 in the even lighter shafted driver.  I'm happy and encourage others to try the same.  This is with no counterweighting obviously, which is just a "fool the scale" trick.

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On 1/11/2021 at 1:06 PM, dry664 said:

I'm 6'4" with 39" wrist to floor and I've been fit anywhere from +0.5 to +2.5" from a number of very well regarded fitters (+2.5" was from The Leadbetter Academy!). In the past I've played at a high level (won 3x NCAA D1 championships, played Challenge Tour and European Tour) but now just play the game recreationally. Here's my thoughts:

 -  At more than +1", generally you are going outside of the boundaries of what the club/shaft manufacturers intended with regards swing weight/overall weight/balance point/design

 - It's much, much harder to play really long clubs if you don't play a lot

 - Playing irons of E+ swingweights can lead to injury so avoid if possible

 

If you do find yourself needing excessively long clubs:

 - Go upright before you go longer. I think 3 deg upright is just about the playable max. I think the flatter you can keep the lie the more stable the club will be through impact.

 - Figure out the shortest playable length of the shortest club you'll make a full swing with. For me thats a 52deg gap wedge, then use that over standard (i.e.+1") throughout the bag.

 - Select irons from a manufacturer who offers light weight head options....Mizuno, Titleist, TM, Ping

 - Take advantage of other base components to shift the swing weight in your favour, i.e. KBS Tour 120's are counterbalanced and can shift swingweight -3 points vs something like an x100. Midsize grips are another thing that can shift swing weight in your favour, as are white grips are they contain more pigment and are usually heavier. I've never been a fan of using counterweights like Tour Lock, but arguably they produce the same effect as as midsize grip

 - Just because you need longer irons, you probably don't need longer woods

 - Don't forget that your swing plays a large part. If you're playing clubs at +2" but you're an early extender/handle raiser, you're not doing yourself any favors with clubs that are that long.

 

I'm currently in a combo set of TM P7MC/P770 which swing weight between D2-D5, and they are +1" over TM standard.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks! That all makes great sense and I have had some soreness in my right elbow which is probably explained from the high SW. I'm hoping in the next few years to get a full fitting once I've got the money and time to play more. If it didn't cost $350 for the fitting and then another $1500 plus for the clubs i would jump on it today. I live in St. Louis so we've got Club Champion and lots of local clubs to choose from for fitting, but I'm guessing Club Champion is the way to go.

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On 1/4/2021 at 11:47 AM, Bgrote55 said:

Hey everyone!

 

First post and tried to find a thread on GolfWRX or Reddit without much help. I'm around a 15 handicap (only play 10-15 rounds a year so can't say for sure) and am 6'7" and 200lbs with a swing speed 110-115mph with my driver. A couple of years ago I purchased the 2014 Apex 3-AW DG SL X100 shafts with 2" extensions from Callaway Preowned after getting fit at Golf Galaxy (I know not the best place, but it's what I had at the time). I absolutely love the 5-AW, but really struggle with the 3 and 4 irons in terms of distance and face control. The 3 iron goes around 220 (same as my 5 iron) and the 4 iron goes 210 (same as my 6 iron). I've also never been a great driver or wood player so I finally decided to do some quick measurements to check my swing weights for 5-AW were right around E0 whereas my 3 and 4 were D6 and driver (Mavrik SZ 10.5 w/ HZRDUS Green 6.5 70g) and 3 wood (TM M5 w/ GD AD IZ 8x) were D2. Now I could be off since I only used an online calculator since I don't have a swing weight scale, but those seem to be pretty significant differences. 

 

My question is: What do other tall players do to help get similar swing weights in their longer clubs to help with gapping and club face control? I'm worried to add too much weight to my driver in order to bring up the swing weight because I'm hesitant about the aftermarket weights.

 

Thanks!

A statement and then a couple of questions. We all recognize swing weight is not a measure of weight, it is a measure of feel. Are you assuming because you hit 5-AW well @ E0, the only reason you are hitting the 3-4 poorly is because they are a different swing weight? The top of the bag is also a lighter swing weight, but are you happy with how you hit your driver and 3W? What is your avg distance for driver and 3W? Could you be striking the 3-4 irons on a different part of the face compared to your 5-AW? Club impact stickers would show this. Another relatively easy/inexpensive test is to add enough lead tape to the 3 or 4i to get to E0 and test for results. Same for driver and 3W, you could try lead tape to compare results with a heavier swing weight. If a poorer strike is the results, just remove the tape.  Is it the swing weight 'feel' difference that is causing poor results or something else? You mention extensions, but nothing about lie angle. Just adding length increases lie angle from the std OEM setting.  Have you had the clubs measured for lie angle? (if it was commented on in another post, I apologize for missing it) Did the GG fitting recommend both length and lie angle changes? Maybe you need to either go more upright or go flatter for better results with the 3-4i. It sounds like you are happy with everything in your bag except the 3-4i, so why change the other clubs when it may just be adjustments to the 3-4i are all you need. Just some ideas, I am just a hobbiest, not a professional club maker or fitter.

Ping G400 Max 10.5°, Ping Alta CB R flex, std length
Ping G400 3W & 5W, 14.5° & 17.5°, Ping Alta CB, R flex std length
Callaway 2004 Big Bertha 7W, 22°., Callaway RCH graphite, R flex std length

Cleveland Launcher UHX 5-D Wedge, std loft/lie, Dynamic Gold DST 98 steel R flex, std length
Cleveland Smart Sole SW, 58°, Dynamic Gold wedge flex, std length

Odyssey 2019 Seven Slant Stroke Lab with stock grip 35"

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On 1/11/2021 at 1:09 PM, dry664 said:

 

If they feel like sledgehammers, then they probably aren't doing you any favours 🤣

 

Theres a good chance the Infiniti 603's are a standard weight head, and if they are, just by switching to a lighter weight head you could get down into the mid D's while remaining at +1.5"

 

 

I'm 6'3" and settled on +2" in Modus 130X with 14g brass ferrules and JumboMax tour grips. I've yet to swingweight them to see what the final tally is, lmao. I hoe'd for a few years trying different lengths, flexes, and lie angles. I've never hit the ball better, amd dropped my cap to low single digits.

Rogue Draw Rogue Silver 70g
Cobra Bio Cell 3W Rogue Black 80g
Nike VR Pro Combo 3-PW Nippon Pro Modus 130X
Nike VR 54/58 Nippon Pro Modus 130X
Rife Two Bar Center Shaft
B330

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14 minutes ago, toddmanley said:

I’d be curious to see where they end up with both SW and total weight. 

 

You know what, I will make it a point to do tomorrow. Lol

Edited by Hack Daddy

Rogue Draw Rogue Silver 70g
Cobra Bio Cell 3W Rogue Black 80g
Nike VR Pro Combo 3-PW Nippon Pro Modus 130X
Nike VR 54/58 Nippon Pro Modus 130X
Rife Two Bar Center Shaft
B330

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