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Handicaps vs Tee Boxes


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A buddy of mine is a 4hdcp ( I too am a 4).  However, he prefers to only play from the white tees.  While he is not a bomber, he does hit the ball a bit further than most golfers and his mid/short-iron play is better than most.  Does this make him a legit 4?   What part of ones game should determine the tee boxes played?   Please forgive the oversimplification of the question...

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agreed your index is based on the tee you play. If he is playing the white tees than he has to shoot better scores to be a 4 than you would, playing further back tees. 

 

There are semantics we can get into about diminishing returns etc...Like someone who drives the ball 190yds might be able to shoot low enough scores to be a 3-4 index on a 5700yd course, but might not be able to maintain that index on a 7000yd course....but these are outlier examples

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On 1/4/2021 at 12:33 PM, cantwells said:

A buddy of mine is a 4hdcp ( I too am a 4).  However, he prefers to only play from the white tees.  While he is not a bomber, he does hit the ball a bit further than most golfers and his mid/short-iron play is better than most.  Does this make him a legit 4?   What part of ones game should determine the tee boxes played?   Please forgive the oversimplification of the question...

It's up to him to determine the tees he wants to play and as said, the tee boxes factor into the handicap, so it's legit.  He's a 4 from the whites, you're a 4 from the [insert color here] tees.  Seems to bother you that he's carrying the same handicap playing up, at least maybe a little, but take solace in the fact that if he played from your tees his handicap would possibly be higher but . . . . no less legitimate. 

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15 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

It's up to him to determine the tees he wants to play and as said, the tee boxes factor into the handicap, so it's legit.  He's a 4 from the whites, you're a 4 from the [insert color here] tees.  Seems to bother you that he's carrying the same handicap playing up, at least maybe a little, but take solace in the fact that if he played from your tees his handicap would possibly be higher but . . . . no less legitimate. 

 

Shouldn't be. His scores would be higher but not his handicap.

 

But the OP can take solace in the fact that if they play different tees he probably gets at least a stroke or 3 from his buddy. 👍

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15 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Shouldn't be. His scores would be higher but not his handicap.

 

But the OP can take solace in the fact that if they play different tees he probably gets at least a stroke or 3 from his buddy. 👍

Not sure that I understand your statement above?  A player's handicap changes between tees based on the course rating, slope and par.  Shown below are my handicaps for the various tees on our course, not the difference in handicaps. (I play nearly exclusively from the whites)

Tee                  Rating    Slope   Par   Hdcp     Expected score

Mens GOLD

73.6

      130

     72

     9

            81

Mens BLUE

72.1

      128

     72

     7

            79

Mens WHITE

70.7

      120

     72

     5

            77

Mens SILVER

69.1

      118

     72

     4

           76

Mens RED

66.5

      110

     71

     2

           73

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30 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Not sure that I understand your statement above?  A player's handicap changes between tees based on the course rating, slope and par.  Shown below are my handicaps for the various tees on our course, not the difference in handicaps. (I play nearly exclusively from the whites)

Tee                  Rating    Slope   Par   Hdcp     Expected score

 

Mens GOLD

 

73.6

 

      130

 

     72

 

     9

 

            81

 

Mens BLUE

 

72.1

 

      128

 

     72

 

     7

 

            79

 

Mens WHITE

 

70.7

 

      120

 

     72

 

     5

 

            77

 

Mens SILVER

 

69.1

 

      118

 

     72

 

     4

 

           76

 

Mens RED

 

66.5

 

      110

 

     71

 

     2

 

           73

 

He meant index, not course handicap.

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32 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Not sure that I understand your statement above?  A player's handicap changes between tees based on the course rating, slope and par.  Shown below are my handicaps for the various tees on our course, not the difference in handicaps. (I play nearly exclusively from the whites)

Tee                  Rating    Slope   Par   Hdcp     Expected score

 

Mens GOLD

 

73.6

 

      130

 

     72

 

     9

 

            81

 

Mens BLUE

 

72.1

 

      128

 

     72

 

     7

 

            79

 

Mens WHITE

 

70.7

 

      120

 

     72

 

     5

 

            77

 

Mens SILVER

 

69.1

 

      118

 

     72

 

     4

 

           76

 

Mens RED

 

66.5

 

      110

 

     71

 

     2

 

           73

 

 

1 minute ago, ThinkingPlus said:

He meant index, not course handicap.

 

Correct. When I hear somebody refer to their handicap I assume they're talking about their handicap index.

 

For course handicap they should SAY "course handicap" since it can be very different from their index.

 

I'm a "6" (index of course) at one of my groups because they refused to adjust me upwards due to health (I'm actually 8.6 with the soft cap applied for the 2nd time and going up from there).

 

But because I play the whites I only get 2 shots (CH). Guy playing with me sees the sheet and says "You're a 2 handicap !?!?!" and I have to explain............. [sigh]

 

But as per the USGA, a 4 is a 4 is a 4, tees are irrelevant (or so goes the theory :classic_rolleyes:)

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12 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Correct. When I hear somebody refer to their handicap I assume they're talking about their handicap index.

 

For course handicap they should SAY "course handicap" since it can be very different from their index.

 

I'm a "6" (index of course) at one of my groups because they refused to adjust me upwards due to health (I'm actually 8.6 with the soft cap applied for the 2nd time and going up from there).

 

But because I play the whites I only get 2 shots (CH). Guy playing with me sees the sheet and says "You're a 2 handicap !?!?!" and I have to explain............. [sigh]

 

But as per the USGA, a 4 is a 4 is a 4, tees are irrelevant (or so goes the theory :classic_rolleyes:)

The theory is mostly correct as long as Miracle Max doesn't do your rating/slope.

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19 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I guess we need to be more explicit in our posts - if we mean handicap index, we should say that; if we mean course handicap, we should say that.  Just saying handicap doesn't refer to either, imo.

 

Well, I respectfully disagree. As long as I have been playing golf, any reference to "handicap" was referring to "handicap index".

 

If someone says "I'm a 4 handicap", or asks me my handicap, I know they're asking about my index.

 

The ONLY time it didn't mean index, "course handicap" was used. Actually, let me take that back. "Course handicap" was rarely used.

 

The question(s) would be along the lines of "How many shots do/did you get today", NOT "What was your course handicap today ?"

 

So I would suggest that "index" would be understood as the default. If someone means "course handicap", that's probably what they'll say.

 

Then again, if you asked most players "What's your course handicap today ?" they'd probably give you a blank stare - and then maybe the light bulb would come on. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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4 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I meant index - it’s not possible for his index to be higher? 

 

Well, of course it's possible, and IMO it's very possible, but according to handicapping if you're, let's say, a 4 INDEX :classic_smile: from the forward tees (NOT "ladies" tees :classic_biggrin:) you shoot a 71 & those tees are rated 67 and you're a 4.

 

Move back to the middle tees and you shoot 73 from tees rated 69 and you're still a 4.

 

Move back another tee set and shoot 76 from tees rated at 72 and you're still a 4.

 

So those would be the scores (obviously I left out the effect of slope but you get the idea)

 

Now of course the above 4 differentials are the average of your best 8 out of 20 but I'm sure you get the idea. :classic_wink:

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I'm different, when I ask someone their handicap, I'm referring to their handicap from the tees being played today.  I don't really care about their handicap index, and doubt that they could correctly state it.

This is a Rules forum - apparently both Rules of golf and rules of handicapping.  Both of these sets of rules require specific terminology and definition.  In order to be clear, the correct terminology must be used, otherwise confusion abounds.

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12 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, of course it's possible, and IMO it's very possible, but according to handicapping if you're, let's say, a 4 INDEX :classic_smile: from the forward tees (NOT "ladies" tees :classic_biggrin:) you shoot a 71 & those tees are rated 67 and you're a 4.

 

Move back to the middle tees and you shoot 73 from tees rated 69 and you're still a 4.

 

Move back another tee set and shoot 76 from tees rated at 72 and you're still a 4.

 

So those would be the scores (obviously I left out the effect of slope but you get the idea)

 

Now of course the above 4 differentials are the average of your best 8 out of 20 but I'm sure you get the idea. :classic_wink:

I agree with you.  In the states at least “ handicap “ means handicap index.  Now I’d also agree that in international conversations it probably makes sense to be very specific.  
 

I do find this topic interesting.  At my home course I play a good mix of the middle and back tees. There are 3 shots difference in those tees.  But scores rarely change.  If I played only from the middle tees , my index would go up.  I feel like this is true of most “ second shot “ courses. They use approach shots and greens as defense , not length off the tee. And by that I mean that on most holes the approach yardage is the same no matter the tees.  Doglegs and or trouble require placement of a lot of tee shots , so it only changes the tee club. The rest stays the same.  

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4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I agree with you.  In the states at least “ handicap “ means handicap index.  Now I’d also agree that in international conversations it probably makes sense to be very specific.  
 

I do find this topic interesting.  At my home course I play a good mix of the middle and back tees. There are 3 shots difference in those tees.  But scores rarely change.  If I played only from the middle tees , my index would go up.  I feel like this is true of most “ second shot “ courses. They use approach shots and greens as defense , not length off the tee. And by that I mean that on most holes the approach yardage is the same no matter the tees.  Doglegs and or trouble require placement of a lot of tee shots , so it only changes the tee club. The rest stays the same.  

Same for me at my home course.  If I play forward exclusively, my index will go up a bit.  If I play whites my index goes down.  It is at least a stroke difference or maybe a bit more.  Blue tees might be an even bigger difference, but those tees aren't rated for women.  Can't post.

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11 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, I respectfully disagree. As long as I have been playing golf, any reference to "handicap" was referring to "handicap index".

 

I respectfully disagree (not that it really matters)😁. It all depends on context. If you ask a member of our club 'their handicap' 9/10 they will give you the handicap for the tees the men all play and not their index. Same idea if a stranger asked my handicap on the first tee, I am likely going to answer with the course handicap for the tees I am playing that day. 

Edited by 2bGood
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Just to jump on the original question - Your index is your index (pretty much) regardless of tees. Having been involved in rating courses, it not really a perfect science so some tees might be rated/sloped a bit harder or easier than they should be, but it all pretty much works out. 

 

As other have said moving up will decrease you course handicap so you have to go lower to shoot the same score. On the extreme end I play with my kids from the juniors tee once and a while. I have to shave 12 strokes of my round to shoot my cap - for me that is 9 or 10 under par! The par 5's are good for 4 birdies, but the other 5 or 6 are tough to find.

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9 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, of course it's possible, and IMO it's very possible, but according to handicapping if you're, let's say, a 4 INDEX :classic_smile: from the forward tees (NOT "ladies" tees :classic_biggrin:) you shoot a 71 & those tees are rated 67 and you're a 4.

 

Move back to the middle tees and you shoot 73 from tees rated 69 and you're still a 4.

 

Move back another tee set and shoot 76 from tees rated at 72 and you're still a 4.

 

So those would be the scores (obviously I left out the effect of slope but you get the idea)

 

Now of course the above 4 differentials are the average of your best 8 out of 20 but I'm sure you get the idea. :classic_wink:

 

LOL, well "possibly" is what I said, but I admit my assumption was it was more likely that it would which appears incorrect.  I just didn't think the differences in rating/slope would normally lead to HI being the same, but it does make sense that they would lead to that result.

 

On the other, I guess it means whatever it means.  I'm usually going to report HI on the extremely rare chance anyone asks because I'll probably just click on the app on my phone to see what it is.  Our course is rated so low, I'm usually explaining in league, "I'm not a real 4" to people giving me ____ --- my HI is 7.8 right now, CH is 4.0.  Yes, I know it's all relative, but in that sense I'd just wouldn't feel right  answering "I'm a 4" to anyone who asks me my handicap and if I said "my course handicap is 4" I'd get blank stares, lol.

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46 minutes ago, jmkenn0 said:

Yep, context is key here.  If I'm standing on the street corner talking about my handicap, its my index.  If I'm standing on a tee box, its the course index from that tee.  If you switch around alot, I think you would say "I'm an X from the whites, Y from the blues, etc."

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10 hours ago, 2bGood said:

I respectfully disagree (not that it really matters)😁. It all depends on context. If you ask member of our club 'their handicap' 9/10 they will give you the handicap for the tees the men all play and not their index. Same idea if a stranger asked my handicap on the first tee, I am likely going to answer with the course handicap for the tees I am playing that day. 

This made me scratch my head.   Not at all calling you wrong. It’s just a curiosity to me . The human condition in general.  And it reminded me of a disagreement I had a couple weeks ago.  
 

a playing competitor was voicing his displeasure at losing the Saturday morning dogfight game .  It was mostly him just griping. Not a REAL accusation or argument.   I had played  so so and ended up winning anyway since my blind draw partner was plus 4 on his points quota for the day . 

 

anyway. To the point. He says “ you win when you play well and you win when you don’t “.  Implying I was lucky or something.  I said “ it’s not my game or rules. I just hit the ball and it comes out how it comes out “. Then he says “ you’re a plus 2 , you Should have to get more points than you do “.    Then the discussion turns , as I say “ I’m not a plus 2 , I’m 0.5 right now “.  And then that goes back and forth until he leaves.  I just now realized what he was talking about. I had a look and  Sure enough. My course handicap for the men’s tee is plus 2.  I literally thought he had lost his marbles.  Or mistaken me with someone else. 
 

For context. This game pays out a single medalist , snd for a blind draw team on stableford points.  These points run week to week in a book.  So at times I have to get 40 points to meet my quota of ive played very well.  Other times like the one mentioned above. I had played badly several weeks in a row and was down to having to get 34 or so points.  This day I had broke even and my computer drawn partner was plus 4 on his points. So the team won with plus 4.  

 

Anyway.  Just shows how folks look at this differently.  I’ve never once used my course handicap for the day.  I don’t play in net events . But a person who uses it daily might be so used to it that they ONLY think of course Handicap.  

 

Edited by bladehunter
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10 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I agree with you.  In the states at least “ handicap “ means handicap index.  Now I’d also agree that in international conversations it probably makes sense to be very specific.  
 

I do find this topic interesting.  At my home course I play a good mix of the middle and back tees. There are 3 shots difference in those tees.  But scores rarely change.  If I played only from the middle tees , my index would go up.  I feel like this is true of most “ second shot “ courses. They use approach shots and greens as defense , not length off the tee. And by that I mean that on most holes the approach yardage is the same no matter the tees.  Doglegs and or trouble require placement of a lot of tee shots , so it only changes the tee club. The rest stays the same.  

I'm with you. Last year at my home course I played a total of 181 rounds of golf. For various reasons I moved up to the senior tee in 14 of them, the balance of rounds, 167, from the Whites. From the senior tees my average score was 74.5 and from the whites 74.53. Course ratings vary at 65.1 from the senior tees and 68.6 from the white tees. My current index is 4.6 so a course handicap of +3 from the senior tees and scratch from the whites. Were I to play all my golf from the senior tees my index would go up.

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When we're standing on the tee box arranging a game for the day, we never talk about handicap index, only about our course handicap ("handicap") from the tees we will be using.  In our "competitions" everyone plays from the same tees, so "handicap" always means course handicap.  If I were to say my handicap is 6.2, everyone would look at me wondering what the heck I meant, and someone would ask the obvious, "Thaaat's niiiice, but what's your handicap?"

Edited by rogolf
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10 hours ago, 2bGood said:

I respectfully disagree (not that it really matters)😁. It all depends on context. If you ask a member of our club 'their handicap' 9/10 they will give you the handicap for the tees the men all play and not their index. Same idea if a stranger asked my handicap on the first tee, I am likely going to answer with the course handicap for the tees I am playing that day. 

 

Perhaps it's where we've played ?

 

Until about 5 years ago virtually my entire golfing life I've played with guys at the same tees so there was zero adjustment for playing from different tee sets. I doubt any of them even knew about any adjustments.

 

So while we knew about course handicaps and using slope to get the correct whole number we knew nothing about adjusting for different tees.

 

About 5 years ago I started playing with some older guys who player the senior tees and I played the whites. As a 5 they gave me 8. I asked why. THAT is when I learned about said adjustments.

 

Has your group/club "always" played from different tees ?

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Yes, he is a legit 4. As others have said his course handicap will be adjusted according to the tees he plays. If he prefers the white tees, and has more fun playing from them, no harm no foul. The vast majority of us will never play professionally, so how we enjoy playing the game should be our focus. Sometimes though the ego gets involved and therein lies some of the frustration as we may bite off a bit more than we can chew. 🙂

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10 hours ago, 2bGood said:

I respectfully disagree (not that it really matters)😁. It all depends on context. If you ask a member of our club 'their handicap' 9/10 they will give you the handicap for the tees the men all play and not their index. Same idea if a stranger asked my handicap on the first tee, I am likely going to answer with the course handicap for the tees I am playing that day. 

I respectfully disagree as well, we typically just state our index. Depending on how I am feeling or the group I am playing with, I play from 3 different sets of tees, so my CH can change daily. But I will say GHIN app has taken all the guess work and first tee posturing out of the equation when it comes to determining strokes given. I have all my normal playing partners saved, just fire up the app, put in the tees, and go from there.

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On 1/11/2021 at 6:52 PM, nsxguy said:

 

Shouldn't be. His scores would be higher but not his handicap.

 

But the OP can take solace in the fact that if they play different tees he probably gets at least a stroke or 3 from his buddy. 👍

Respectfully, this is 100% inaccurate.  The GHIN system takes into account the tee boxes (and this difficulty rating) when determining course handicaps.  If you are  4 from one set of tees, and your friend is a 4 from a different set of tees, there WOULD be a stroke differential IF you played him from the SAME tees. 

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5 hours ago, Bushwood Country Club said:

Respectfully, this is 100% inaccurate.  The GHIN system takes into account the tee boxes (and this difficulty rating) when determining course handicaps.  If you are  4 from one set of tees, and your friend is a 4 from a different set of tees, there WOULD be a stroke differential IF you played him from the SAME tees. 

 

Sorry but you're mistaken.

 

A 4 is a 4 is a 4. The tees that 4 is made from is irrelevant.

 

If 2 4.0 INDEXES are playing from the same tees there are NO strokes given.

 

If 2 4.0 INDEXES are playing from 2 different tee sets the player further back will likely get a stroke or 2 from the 4 playing further up.

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Choice in the tee box should only depend on a person's ability to cover the longest carry demand, and maintain pace of play.  I would never support an arbitrary stat that says so-and-so has to play from "X" tee box due to his course handi.

 

Currently, my index is 4, course handi depends on the slope rating of tees, not course rating.

 

My Index book says, slope rating of 100 to 125 I get 4 strokes.  From 126 to 155 slope I get 5 stokes  Changing tees doesn't mean I will get more or less strokes. 

 

One course I frequent: My index is 4

Black tees = 71 Par, 72.4 Rating, 135 Slope = 6721 = I get 5 strokes

Blue tees = 71 Par, 70.4 Rating, 130 Slope = 6292 = I get 5 stokes

 

     
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  • T200 17' 2i Tensei AV Raw White Hybrid 95S
  • T100 3i & 4i MMT 85S
  • T100 5i to 9i MMT 105S
  • T100 PW, SM9 F52/12, M58/8, PX Wedge 120S
  • SC/CA Monterey
  • DASH -ProV1x
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