High handicapper--looking for swing feedback due to inconsistent contact

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 2/12/2021 at 5:48 PM, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Make sure the butt pad of your left hand is on top of the grip. 

 

@tthomasgolfer605, I think you're basically saying to strengthen the left hand grip... Roll it a little more over the club? Yes?

 

Same thing the pro told me to do in my swing evaluation, but I think it feels weird and I fight it. Thanks. I'll try to keep an eye on it.

[betarhoalphadelta]

Alright... The stuff I was talking about above for weight shift completely threw me off. I went with my son on Sunday and I couldn't hit for @#&%. Part of it was that I was trying to swing my own clubs while also trying to monitor him (he's very new). So my mental space was all wrong for practice and I couldn't focus. 

 

On the bright side, I was able to really help him. He was letting his left shoulder hit his chin on the backswing, swaying his head WAY out of position. The simple thing of telling him to let that shoulder rotate UNDER your chin really got that going. I bought him his first set of adult clubs for Christmas. He's 13, about 5'5", and 120#, and I found a nice used set that belonged to a senior not able to play any more for a good deal. Graphite shafts and a lot of flex lol. But he finally tried driver for the first time, and had one that he actually elevated off the turf and went >100 on the carry and roll-out to at least 150. He might be hooked 😉 

 

Went out today to try to get back into the right frame of mind. It was definitely a slog as I worked through the bucket of balls, but I caught on to something that I felt on Feb 9 but didn't realize. When I moderate the tempo of my backswing, it *really* helps with contact. 

 

I think I was throwing my balance off going too fast on the backswing, and then trying to recover on the downswing. By slowing down the backswing, I feel like I can really let the downswing fly because I'm stable and balanced. I think it also helps me with the weight shift even though I'm not thinking about weight shift--which is probably how it's supposed to work lol. 

 

Oddly enough, slowing down stops me from taking it too far back too...

 

Let me know what you think...

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by betarhoalphadelta

[tthomasgolfer605]

22 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

@tthomasgolfer605, I think you're basically saying to strengthen the left hand grip... Roll it a little more over the club? Yes?

 

Same thing the pro told me to do in my swing evaluation, but I think it feels weird and I fight it. Thanks. I'll try to keep an eye on it.

 Yes. Just turn your left hand about a quarter turn to the right with the butt pad on top. Better hinge and club control. Don't fiddle with it in your stance though. Implement it into a pre-shot routine. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

 Yes. Just turn your left hand about a quarter turn to the right with the butt pad on top. Better hinge and club control. Don't fiddle with it in your stance though. Implement it into a pre-shot routine. 

Thanks.

 

Based on the videos that I just posted, do you see something where I'm compensating for this grip issue in the swings? I can see in the face on view that my left hand grip is pretty weak there. 

 

If not, is there something in the swings that will need to tweak based on strengthening the grip? 

[tthomasgolfer605]

4 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Thanks.

 

Based on the videos that I just posted, do you see something where I'm compensating for this grip issue in the swings? I can see in the face on view that my left hand grip is pretty weak there. 

 

If not, is there something in the swings that will need to tweak based on strengthening the grip? 

Turning your left hand to the right will force your body to open a bit more to get the path online and clubface square having a more around look into the follow through. You have a slide after the ball is gone and more up finish which can cause blocks/hooks .Did you ever get your path/face numbers at impact.

[betarhoalphadelta]

43 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Turning your left hand to the right will force your body to open a bit more to get the path online and clubface square having a more around look into the follow through. You have a slide after the ball is gone and more up finish which can cause blocks/hooks .Did you ever get your path/face numbers at impact.

I got minimal numbers. In a 30 min swing evaluation I started out-to-in, and with some basic changes to reduce my backswing, try to shallow on downswing, and strengthen the grip, I got to in-to-out with my final strike being 0.1 degree in-to-out lol and a beautiful shot...

 

But I have no clue what my numbers are after spending the last two months working on this...

[betarhoalphadelta]

Apparently since yesterday, I've completely forgotten how to hit a golf ball. Went to the range this morning and hit off the grass for once instead of mats. 

 

No low point control. No face control. Thin/fat/push/hook, I was all over the place. I couldn't even hit easy wedge shots.

 

I'm gonna just play that range session off like it didn't happen. The less I think of it, the better.

[tthomasgolfer605]

5 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Apparently since yesterday, I've completely forgotten how to hit a golf ball. Went to the range this morning and hit off the grass for once instead of mats. 

 

No low point control. No face control. Thin/fat/push/hook, I was all over the place. I couldn't even hit easy wedge shots.

 

I'm gonna just play that range session off like it didn't happen. The less I think of it, the better.

Yeah. Too much going on in your head. Purposely try to hit hooks and slices. High/Low shots etc.  It'll clear the mind.

[betarhoalphadelta]

59 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Yeah. Too much going on in your head. Purposely try to hit hooks and slices. High/Low shots etc.  It'll clear the mind.

Looking back on it, I wasn't in the right mental space. I slept terribly so I was already in a bad space. I was probably in a bit of a hurry because the range was step one before several errands I needed to run. I was expecting after the way my range session yesterday finished (good) that I'd just be flushing shot after shot. But instead of focusing on what helped (connecting my arms and staying in sequence on the DS) I was focusing on the last step, the slower takeaway and I know I wasn't swinging in sequence. But instead of taking deep breaths and recovering, I got frustrated with myself for all the bad shots and then it just spiraled. 

 

Oh well. Golf giveth, golf taketh away lol...

[tthomasgolfer605]

2 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Looking back on it, I wasn't in the right mental space. I slept terribly so I was already in a bad space. I was probably in a bit of a hurry because the range was step one before several errands I needed to run. I was expecting after the way my range session yesterday finished (good) that I'd just be flushing shot after shot. But instead of focusing on what helped (connecting my arms and staying in sequence on the DS) I was focusing on the last step, the slower takeaway and I know I wasn't swinging in sequence. But instead of taking deep breaths and recovering, I got frustrated with myself for all the bad shots and then it just spiraled. 

 

Oh well. Golf giveth, golf taketh away lol...

Do you play often?

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I just got back into the game in July 2020. Prior to that, I hadn't played at all in 5 years, and the 5 years prior to that was 1-2 rounds per year. 

 

Right now I try to get out for 18 every other weekend. I have my kids on the opposite weekends, so it's hard to get out then, although with my son picking up the game I'm hoping to add at least 9 on those weekends.

 

Beyond that, if I can sneak in a quick 9 at the executive course during the week I might try, but I've been trying to use that for range time because I'm working so hard on the swing changes. Once I iron out the swing changes I'd rather do the exec course because it obviously gives me work on my wedge game, pitching, putting, etc, which I'll need. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

@laneholt My goal is to not have any real swing thought on the course. For me, the general idea is to exhale, relax, and just swing.

 

What I've been working on is the "connect the arms" swing thought on the range. It's when I focus on dropping the hands and swinging with my arms in on the downswing. 

 

My issue was that yesterday I found that a slower takeaway helped set everything up, whereas the swing thought was still that downswing move. But what got me today is that I was focusing on the slower takeaway and not the downswing move. On top of just being in the wrong mental space in general.

 

That downswing move is what gets me from the top of the backswing into the slot. That needs to be my thought. It wasn't today, and then I spiraled. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

3 hours ago, laneholt said:

Beta- 

 

   With all the previous advice I have read in these posts don’t know how you ever pull the shaft back .  All that stuff gives me a good  laugh.  There are some concrete  things we know about human genetics that are FACTUAL and UNDENIABLE! The human brain , as wonderful as it is , can ONLY sort , prepare and preprogram and perform ONE ( uno ) task in the 2/10 second allotted for the DS .  You can have as many thoughts as you want , but you will ONLY be able to perform ONE in such a short period of time and that MUST be PREPROGRAMMED beforehand ! 
    The question  is - what is that ONE thing I should think about ? What particular part of the body should I think about ? 

 

 

@laneholt I know you're against the word 'grip' because that's how your mind works. You have to understand that most people don't think like you do. A part of pre-programming is also having solid setup fundamentals. Ben Hogan talked about having the butt pad of the left hand on top of the grip because the grip can't move around then. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

@laneholt I think the difference is that we both think that hands are important, but I view the swing as a holistic endeavor... It's hard to get the hands to do certain things in the downswing if you've made the job much harder for them before you get there.

 

So while we both believe the hands are very important, I don't agree with the idea that if you focus 100% on the hands in the downswing, everything else will take care of itself. Personally I had trouble getting my hands to do what I wanted unless I made a conscious effort to take the club away a little more outside, and then didn't get my balance right without controlling tempo on the backswing. Doing both of those things made it easier to get my hands started down into the slot from the top and to swing them with my body's rotation rather than around my body. 

 

I have a lot of work to do, but if you look at the swings I posted on 2/17, I *think* my hands are doing what you describe, are they not? I don't see myself throwing away the angles on those swings.

[wagolfer7]

Here is my opinion.  For what it's worth.  

 

Your takeaway move is going to make it hard.  Club is going outside (which is fine) however you are pushing the club outside with your arms / hands - this is causing your shoulders to start out flat.  I think you need to learn how to rotate your shoulders properly.  It will clean up contact from chipping to full swings.  

 

Look at the pictures - the biggest difference you'll notice is the left shoulder.  Proper shoulder rotation will help keep the club in front of you - without having to manipulate the club with arms / hands.  It also keeps the chest rotating with everything else.  You'll notice your chest is more closed at that position than professionals.    

 

The Padraig video is very helpful in my opinion.  Good luck man.

 

 

  

[betarhoalphadelta]

12 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

Here is my opinion.  For what it's worth.  

 

Your takeaway move is going to make it hard.  Club is going outside (which is fine) however you are pushing the club outside with your arms / hands - this is causing your shoulders to start out flat.  I think you need to learn how to rotate your shoulders properly.  It will clean up contact from chipping to full swings.  

 

Look at the pictures - the biggest difference you'll notice is the left shoulder.  Proper shoulder rotation will help keep the club in front of you - without having to manipulate the club with arms / hands.  It also keeps the chest rotating with everything else.  You'll notice your chest is more closed at that position than professionals.    

 

The Padraig video is very helpful in my opinion.  Good luck man.

 

Many thanks!

 

I can see from the takeaway that I get a flat turn from the start, and I think that would potentially cause some problems in chipping/pitching. But I think I get that corrected by the time I hit the top...

 

 

I feel like I might have started with an arm swing instead of a hip/shoulder turn, but by the time I get here, I feel like I've got the hips open, the shoulders on an appropriate plane, etc. 

 

I think Jon Rahm is an interesting comparison for me because body type we're very similar... But he has the extremely short backswing and the huge bowed wrist, two things that don't look like me lol.

 

I realize there might be some advantages to getting that shoulder and hip turn started sooner like Rahm (and many others, I'm sure)... That could be part of the reason that slowing down my backswing helped me--it gave me more time for the hips and shoulders to open AND for me to reset the pressure in the left foot before the downswing.  But do you feel like I'm in the wrong position at the top, however I got there?

[Valtiel]

In an effort to cut through all the stuff that has been talked about in this thread, there is one objective thing to focus on and that is impact position:



To put it very bluntly, you will never be able to achieve any level of consistency if this continues to be your impact position. Your shoulders and your hips are still miles behind your arms at this point and they are blocking everything from releasing/getting through the ball properly. Symptoms will be exactly what you described on your bad day; no low point control and strikes all over the map. You have obviously been working at this, but you need to flip a few things completely 180*. Yes it sounds like you were in a bad place mentally, but that is exactly the type of situation that tests your fundamentals, which are the issue here. Anyone can get into a groove with bad fundamentals if they hit enough balls, but that never translates to anything consistent or meaningful on the course.

Whatever it is that you feel like you are doing or working on at the moment needs to change if you want to make any progress, because the underlying fundamentals haven't improved since the thread began. On the surface here, everything is still arm based. Your takeaway starts with your arms moving and your lower body static and your transition is more or less the same. This is backwards and will continue giving you headaches until it is reversed, or at least significantly changed. However you decide to get there, hips and shoulders need to be more open and cleared at impact or else you will continue struggling with low point and strike quality. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Thanks @Valtiel. Sounds like I need to bite the bullet and get in front of Monte, who is local, instead of beating my head against the wall... Just trying to hold off as long as I can because I've avoided the ’VID so far and don't want to bring it home to my family over golf lessons lol...

[Valtiel]

5 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Thanks @Valtiel. Sounds like I need to bite the bullet and get in front of Monte, who is local, instead of beating my head against the wall... Just trying to hold off as long as I can because I've avoided the ’VID so far and don't want to bring it home to my family over golf lessons lol...

That sounds like a great idea. Monte will be able to do a lot more than we can via internet. 👍

[TheDeanAbides]

The problem with this thread (as with almost every other in this section of the forum) is that everyone gives advice based on the theory they teach or believe in the most. 

 

Lane is a Gerry Hogan true believer but rarely adds that as a qualifier, which is why his posts sound like a TV evangelist. 

 

Others have different takes on what drives the swing - pivot or hands. 

 

Others have different ideas on what a proper release is, etc. 

 

None are wrong but often the advice is confusing, conflicting and incompatible. This is why golfers end up lost in theory and can't take the club back. 

 

This is why it's best to find a teacher or method that you like the idea of and stick with it. If you post a swing make it clear that you're following this method and ignore comments from people who offer advice that's incompatible. Especially Lane (who will try to convert you to the One Truth).

 

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by TheDeanAbides

[betarhoalphadelta]

6 hours ago, Valtiel said:

That sounds like a great idea. Monte will be able to do a lot more than we can via internet. 👍

I do want to say thanks. Your breakdown of my swing at the very beginning pointed out the massive flip, which has been one of the big things I've been working on. I see you in other threads and you do great work helping everyone. It's much appreciated!

 

I'm frustrated because I just don't see the open impact position that I'd like to see, but I'm going to post another thread showing the difference between where I was at the beginning and where I was last Wednesday. I honestly believe I've corrected some major things, and I think if I show a position by position comparison it's going to be illuminating. And your help was a big part of that. 

 

But I'm hitting the wall, and I think an actual pro is going to be the only way to break through it. 

 

5 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

The problem with this thread (as with almost every other in this section of the forum) is that everyone gives advice based on the theory they teach or believe in the most. 

 

Lane is a Gerry Hogan true believer but rarely adds that as a qualifier, which is why his posts sound like a TV evangelist. 

 

Others have different takes on what drives the swing - pivot or hands. 

 

Others have different ideas on what a proper release is, etc. 

 

None are wrong but often the advice is confusing, conflicting and incompatible. This is why golfers end up lost in theory and can't take the club back. 

 

This is why it's best to find a teacher or method that you like the idea of and stick with it. If you post a swing make it clear that you're following this method and ignore comments from people who offer advice that's incompatible. Especially Lane (who will try to convert you to the One Truth).

 

 

 

To be honest, I've been listening to @Valtiel more than anyone. I've just reached a point where my rational brain knows what he's telling me to do, and my motor control portions of that same brain just won't do it lol! 😂

 

I enjoy listening to @laneholt. I don't necessarily always agree with him in that the only thing to think about is hands. However if you listen to what he's saying, I see some interesting things there. 

 

He says "keep the right hand facing the sky". To me, where that showed up in my swing is that to keep the face more closed at the top and at the start of the downswing, I've actually tried to keep my left wrist in flexion, which forces the right wrist into extension--and keeps the right hand facing the sky. 

 

He also says that you can't let the right hand do what it wants to do and turn over. Which again is what happens in a flip. The very first post by @Valtiel he broke down my impact position face-on, and what happened? My left wrist was in extension and my right wrist was flat or in flexion. Whereas my last face on video from Wednesday, my left wrist is flat at impact and my right is slightly in extension. 

 

Beyond that, I have no idea what he's talking about. Trying to convert discussions of GENETICS and FACTS about how our BRAIN is a slave to the DOMINANT RIGHT HAND into actual swing thoughts is not something I find helpful from an instruction perspective. 

 

But learning to release with the left hand and the keep the left wrist flat at impact lines up with keeping the right in extension, which from a biomechanical standpoint are the two things he says--right hand to the sky and don't let it turn over the left. 

 

2 hours ago, laneholt said:

Yes Sir,

 

     I am absolutely a Gerry Hogan true believer - and I am very proud to admit it ! Because of him I , long ago, I left  the golf world of theory and opinion behind and entered the golf world of facts and truths! 
    Those facts and truths based on human genetics which those are based on ! I deem it of the utmost importance to understand how the human structure of muscles , ligaments, tendons and bones actually work . What parts of the human body are dominant ? What controls the human structure ? Can we perform 2-3-4 -5 different task , as we are constantly advised , in 2/10 seconds ? What parts of the human structure does our brain see as most important? Gerry is the only researcher I have ever heard of who asked these questions and spent 20 years discovering the answers. Anyone who is interested enough can easily punch this into a computer and get the answers to these questions . This has been mapped out for us to learn from - just type in ——-Cortical Homunculus. 

     These facts were discovered many years ago by our brightest Neurologist and clearly explains where I am coming from . Just the facts.
 

 

We could all stand a little more clarity, lol 😉

[betarhoalphadelta]

I will say that this is where I've gotten in two months...

 

I drew lines across my shoulder plane, across what I think is my hip plane (obviously tough to see), and from the mid-point of my shoulders down to my belt buckle.

 

Got a lot more to go, but I'm more open than I was!

 

[tthomasgolfer605]

48 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I will say that this is where I've gotten in two months...

 

I drew lines across my shoulder plane, across what I think is my hip plane (obviously tough to see), and from the mid-point of my shoulders down to my belt buckle.

 

Got a lot more to go, but I'm more open than I was!

 

Hard to tell from this perspective whether or not you're more open. I do see more tilt tough. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

The way Ben Hogan held the club seemed to be important to him. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

@laneholt Are you aware, that in all that text, not once did you talk about what the hands are supposed to do in a golf swing?

 

Which means, that even if I agreed with you on every point you stated, it still gives me no tangible path to know what is being done wrong and what should be done right?

[TheDeanAbides]

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

@laneholt Are you aware, that in all that text, not once did you talk about what the hands are supposed to do in a golf swing?

 

Which means, that even if I agreed with you on every point you stated, it still gives me no tangible path to know what is being done wrong and what should be done right?

The hands hold the club. It's what the wrists do that matters. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Played yesterday, and definitely struggled hitting the ball. It got better as the day went on, but the ballstriking was overall terrible. 

 

I had one great one though... That didn't count. On the 9th I hit my 4W off the tee, and hit a low running hook that I knew was 95% likely to end up in a creek, so I'd have to take a drop. We were waiting for one member of our group who was getting a drink from the cart girl, and my buddies were like "why not just hit another"? I knew I could take a drop along the hazard and didn't need a provisional, but we had time so I pulled driver and ripped one probably in the 260-270 range right down the middle. Wish that could have been my first ball lol... Still made bogey despite the drop though, so it wasn't a terrible hole even with the water. 

 

For once, I completely saved myself with my short game though. Got around the course in only 31 putts, despite having one 3-putt and one 4-putt (😡)... Only hit 3 GIR but was able to make 5 pars, including one sand save. The worst was missing par on 2 of the 3 GIR because of the aforementioned 3-putt and 4-putt. 

[TheDeanAbides]

10 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Played yesterday, and definitely struggled hitting the ball. It got better as the day went on, but the ballstriking was overall terrible. 

 

I had one great one though... That didn't count. On the 9th I hit my 4W off the tee, and hit a low running hook that I knew was 95% likely to end up in a creek, so I'd have to take a drop. We were waiting for one member of our group who was getting a drink from the cart girl, and my buddies were like "why not just hit another"? I knew I could take a drop along the hazard and didn't need a provisional, but we had time so I pulled driver and ripped one probably in the 260-270 range right down the middle. Wish that could have been my first ball lol... Still made bogey despite the drop though, so it wasn't a terrible hole even with the water. 

 

For once, I completely saved myself with my short game though. Got around the course in only 31 putts, despite having one 3-putt and one 4-putt (😡)... Only hit 3 GIR but was able to make 5 pars, including one sand save. The worst was missing par on 2 of the 3 GIR because of the aforementioned 3-putt and 4-putt. 

If you're going through multiple swing changes your play is going to be consistently inconsistent. Stick with one change at a time and expect it to take a long time to bed in. Work on the first issue first. I find that the best way to play during a change is to stick to 60-70% speed. 

 

On 2/20/2021 at 8:06 PM, laneholt said:

Beta 

 

     I pointed this out in a previous post , but I ‘ll do it again nc I sense you have a desire to learn —- 

 your front- on video on 2/11 . Slo- to 0.11 and pause it . Notice you have begun to release ( increase the angle between your arms and shaft ) this is caused by your DOMINANT RIGHT HANDS DESIRE TO REVERT TO ITS NATURAL INSTINCTS TO TURN DOWN / RELEASE/ THROW/ HIT ! And why not .

- that is perfectly natural. 
At 0.12 if has become more obvious. It is the turning of the torso that provides the power and — also squares the face , not the HANDS , but try telling them that . They must be trained to understand their role is — to ONLY CONTROL the swing- not to HIT . You must not try to create power with your HANDS . You can observe what I am describing by watching pros at their position compared to yours and you will immediately notice how their HANDS perform.

 

Yes, Lane, that's very true, but wrist conditions are easier to see and note. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

11 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

If you're going through multiple swing changes your play is going to be consistently inconsistent. Stick with one change at a time and expect it to take a long time to bed in. Work on the first issue first. I find that the best way to play during a change is to stick to 60-70% speed. 

Yep. For now I'm going to quit getting too complicated and restrict my range work to ONLY working on the downswing move to get the arms in sequence that's helping me. I knew before I stepped on the first tee Sunday that it might be ugly, especially because I hadn't gone to the range to work myself out of the terrible way I left it Thursday. I was just trying not to embarrass myself. Which I did, with a triple on #1. 

 

[nsxguy]

OK, I might as well jump in.

 

Much better mechanics than any "23" I've ever seen.

 

Anyway, first things first. If Monte is local go see him.

 

Valtiel is the easiest guy to follow and understand.

 

Your left hand, as tt mentioned earlier is still a bit weak. The right hand "V" is pointing to your back shoulder. Your left one should point to pretty much the same place so the hands work together.

 

Weak grip often equals open club face. I had this exact same problem and when the instructor told me to rotate both hands stronger I actually gripped the club that way and said to him "You've GOT to be kidding me. You expect me to hit a golf ball with this grip ???" 

 

Of course it worked. Blocks/right misses were gone in the blink of an eye.

 

See the Rahm picture comparison ? Many good players have the club slightly shut during the early takeaway - exactly the position Rahm is in.

 

I personally have come to focus more on my head position and keeping it (relatively) still. Looking at your videos with that very convenient light pole in the background it makes it easy to watch your head. It's moving too much. That pole starts around your left ear.

 

On the takeaway your head shows that light pole quite clearly so you've moved back from your starting point. Thankfully, it gets back close to the starting position at impact. But it looks like there's too much lateral movement. You might try keeping your head back behind the ball, as at address, and more or less keep it there and rotate around it (and your spine of course).

 

Early extension won't kill you (think Stricker) but the club head catching up to the hands too early will. You yourself mentioned the 2nd most dreaded word in golf, "flipping".

 

But as Valtiel pointed out a few times, you need to create some (more) lag into impact. You don't have to be Sergio but yo do at least have to be Stricker-ish.

 

Your upper body is (still) clearly outracing your lower and your hands should feel like you're pulling the handle through the hit and they should feel like they're leading the club head. They won't actually but they should feel like that.

 

You should feel like the shoulders rotate and pull the arms through, the arms pull the hands through and the hands pull the handle through and then the club strikes the ball.

 

So, my contribution ?

 

Head "still" and not so much lateral movement.

 

Left hand stronger (matching right).

 

Create some (more) lag - no flipping.

 

Good luck. 👍