High handicapper--looking for swing feedback due to inconsistent contact

[TheDeanAbides]

21 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

OK, I might as well jump in.

 

Much better mechanics than any "23" I've ever seen.

 

Anyway, first things first. If Monte is local go see him.

 

Valtiel is the easiest guy to follow and understand.

 

Your left hand, as tt mentioned earlier is still a bit weak. The right hand "V" is pointing to your back shoulder. Your left one should point to pretty much the same place so the hands work together.

 

Weak grip often equals open club face. I had this exact same problem and when the instructor told me to rotate both hands stronger I actually gripped the club that way and said to him "You've GOT to be kidding me. You expect me to hit a golf ball with this grip ???" 

 

Of course it worked. Blocks/right misses were gone in the blink of an eye.

 

See the Rahm picture comparison ? Many good players have the club slightly shut during the early takeaway - exactly the position Rahm is in.

 

I personally have come to focus more on my head position and keeping it (relatively) still. Looking at your videos with that very convenient light pole in the background it makes it easy to watch your head. It's moving too much. That pole starts around your left ear.

 

On the takeaway your head shows that light pole quite clearly so you've moved back from your starting point. Thankfully, it gets back close to the starting position at impact. But it looks like there's too much lateral movement. You might try keeping your head back behind the ball, as at address, and more or less keep it there and rotate around it (and your spine of course).

 

Early extension won't kill you (think Stricker) but the club head catching up to the hands too early will. You yourself mentioned the 2nd most dreaded word in golf, "flipping".

 

But as Valtiel pointed out a few times, you need to create some (more) lag into impact. You don't have to be Sergio but yo do at least have to be Stricker-ish.

 

Your upper body is (still) clearly outracing your lower and your hands should feel like you're pulling the handle through the hit and they should feel like they're leading the club head. They won't actually but they should feel like that.

 

You should feel like the shoulders rotate and pull the arms through, the arms pull the hands through and the hands pull the handle through and then the club strikes the ball.

 

So, my contribution ?

 

Head "still" and not so much lateral movement.

 

Left hand stronger (matching right).

 

Create some (more) lag - no flipping.

 

Good luck. 👍

 

 

 

 

Getting even an online lesson with Monte would be great at this point. 

[wagolfer7]

On 2/19/2021 at 2:50 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Many thanks!

 

I can see from the takeaway that I get a flat turn from the start, and I think that would potentially cause some problems in chipping/pitching. But I think I get that corrected by the time I hit the top...

 

 

 But do you feel like I'm in the wrong position at the top, however I got there?

 

I do feel like you're not in a good position at the top.  Your lead leg has collapsed, your trail leg has fully extended.  This is happening because of your initial move on the takeaway.  The only way for you to feel a complete rotation - is to lift your arms, which rotates your chest, but is also collapsing your base.  Ultimately you're starting out of sync like this and will rely on timing and compensations to get in sync.   

 

Your flat shoulder turn is a major contributor to why the club was getting behind you.  Now that you've focused on getting the club in front of you - you still have a flat shoulder turn but you are using the arms / hands to keep the club in front of you.   If you look at that Rahm picture - you can see the difference of how the elite players keep the club in front of them.  It's how they rotate their shoulders (it also makes your chest move at the same time and stay connected).  It's no coincidence that your flat shoulder turn at the takeaway is also flat at impact - causing a slight flip and poor impact position.  It's also a contributor to your EE.    

 

This is where this thread and multiple advice gets difficult.  My suggestions to you are much different than the others.  And I'm not saying anyone else's suggestions are wrong.  

 

I would either get a lesson with Monte, or direct message with @Valtiel for drills suggestions he has.  

 

Or if you want to go with what I suggest.  I recommend learning from Padraig Harrington's videos.  It's hard to argue with someone that has his credentials.  

1) Watch his grip video - Must start here and pass his test of swinging 3-4 times without the club moving "at all" in your hands.  

2) Watch his chipping video - Use the drill he has with a club / alignment stick 4-6" behind the ball.  Don't hit that stick.  This will force you to not be flat.    

3) Watch the Shoulders / Torso video - his explanation of how the shoulders rotate will completely change your concept of the takeaway and chipping.  

 

In my opinion - if you follow steps 1-3 - you'll get immediate results with your chipping and short swings. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJolpQHWLAW6cCUYGgean8w

 

[TheDeanAbides]

32 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

I do feel like you're not in a good position at the top.  Your lead leg has collapsed, your trail leg has fully extended.  This is happening because of your initial move on the takeaway.  The only way for you to feel a complete rotation - is to lift your arms, which rotates your chest, but is also collapsing your base.  Ultimately you're starting out of sync like this and will rely on timing and compensations to get in sync.   

 

Your flat shoulder turn is a major contributor to why the club was getting behind you.  Now that you've focused on getting the club in front of you - you still have a flat shoulder turn but you are using the arms / hands to keep the club in front of you.   If you look at that Rahm picture - you can see the difference of how the elite players keep the club in front of them.  It's how they rotate their shoulders (it also makes your chest move at the same time and stay connected).  It's no coincidence that your flat shoulder turn at the takeaway is also flat at impact - causing a slight flip and poor impact position.  It's also a contributor to your EE.    

 

This is where this thread and multiple advice gets difficult.  My suggestions to you are much different than the others.  And I'm not saying anyone else's suggestions are wrong.  

 

I would either get a lesson with Monte, or direct message with @Valtiel for drills suggestions he has.  

 

Or if you want to go with what I suggest.  I recommend learning from Padraig Harrington's videos.  It's hard to argue with someone that has his credentials.  

1) Watch his grip video - Must start here and pass his test of swinging 3-4 times without the club moving "at all" in your hands.  

2) Watch his chipping video - Use the drill he has with a club / alignment stick 4-6" behind the ball.  Don't hit that stick.  This will force you to not be flat.    

3) Watch the Shoulders / Torso video - his explanation of how the shoulders rotate will completely change your concept of the takeaway and chipping.  

 

In my opinion - if you follow steps 1-3 - you'll get immediate results with your chipping and short swings. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJolpQHWLAW6cCUYGgean8w

 

This is a great post. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Thanks everyone. I'm going to chill out a bit and work on what I've got until I'm ready to see Monte. 

 

But I appreciate everyone's advice. I've learned more about the golf swing in the last two months than I think I've ever thought possible.

 

Somehow, though, I don't know if I can get the instant feedback of doing it wrong appropriately via the internet...

 

What's Monte's style? Smacking me with a yardstick like a nun, or is he more of a chair-and-a-whip lion tamer type? 😂

 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

What's Monte's style? Smacking me with a yardstick like a nun, or is he more of a chair-and-a-whip lion tamer type? 😂

 

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by nsxguy

[betarhoalphadelta]

Question...

 

I hit the mats at the range yesterday. Things seemed to be working a little better. Nothing was perfect; with my game, it never is.

 

Then I hit the grass range today. Immediately lost it all, just like I did last week. 

 

I'm wondering if the range conditions are different than both the mats (obviously) AND the course conditions (less obviously) I normally play on. 

 

Full disclosure: this range kinda sucks. It's a duffer practice facility. The grass hitting area is limited, and it's pretty much scraped to the dirt by the end of each day. I was there early, so I had actual grass to hit off of, but it was grass, not exactly "turf" if that makes sense. Obviously they move the hitting area forward/back as needed, but it sees a LOT of use and so it needs a LOT of new grass constantly. 

 

I'm wondering if due to the constant efforts to grow grass, they need to keep the entire range very wet, which is making it soft. Which isn't a problem for my club--but maybe it's a problem for my feet. 

 

Course conditions I normally deal with are pretty firm. I've never really had a problem with footing unless I'm in a poor-drainage spot. Even when I play the day after rains, it hasn't been that soft.

 

Obviously if I can't hit off a soft range it's my own problem--my sway and balance, coupled with my weight, might be an issue I can control on hard grippy surfaces and not on soft conditions. 

 

But I'm wondering if this makes sense? I've been trying to use the grass range as it's well known that mats are more forgiving to fat shots, so I want the least forgiving surface to learn on. But if this range is unlike both the mats AND the course conditions I regularly see, then maybe I'm doing myself more harm than good?

[wagolfer7]

@betarhoalphadelta - Different forgiveness levels depending on the surface.  As long as you are not standing in mud (surface is not stable, but constantly shifting) or casual water (same idea water above bottom of shoes, means the ground is sinking beneath you) then you should be able to hit it just fine.  

 

Mats - high forgiveness for fat shots

Firm Grass - medium-low forgiveness fat shots - could get away with drop kicks 

Soft Grass - minimal forgiveness fat shots - club can cut through the ground easier when it's soft

 

A lot of guys will struggle chipping in wet / soft ground conditions.  I suspect you would too.  When you do make good contact - your compensating, most likely by swaying or coming OTT to increase the AoA.   

 

Again highly recommend watching some of the videos I posted.  Especially on shoulder rotation and grip.  

 

Or direct message @Valtiel for some guidance.  

[betarhoalphadelta]

Thanks @wagolfer7 -- I honestly looked at your advice about the turn of the shoulders, correlated to some other videos, and realized what @Valtiel was saying about being all arms and shoulders. Working on that takeaway was one of the things that helped me on Wednesday. It just went away today.

 

That said, I'm trying to disengage from filling my brain with all this stuff and posting more videos. It's doing me no good. 

 

I just thought it was odd that two weeks in a row I was hitting well off mats and then flat out couldn't swing a golf club off a grass range. Yet in between I played on a real course (grass, obv), and after a few holes to work out the crap that'd happened the previous range session, my ballstriking started coming back ok.

 

I'm holding out on videos and further swing advice until I feel comfortable getting in front of Monte for lessons. Just thought my experience with the grass range, two weeks in a row, was really odd...

 

Taking my 13 yo son to the 9 hole executive course on Saturday for the first actual round of golf he's ever played. After the way I was hitting today, I'm worried he's gonna beat me! 😂

[TheDeanAbides]

You have to work on one thing at a time until it's so engrained that you don't have to think about it. This takes weeks or months. There are no shortcuts. Get the takeaway move up to left arm parallel DOWN before moving on. This is what Monte will tell you. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

7 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

You have to work on one thing at a time until it's so engrained that you don't have to think about it. This takes weeks or months. There are no shortcuts. Get the takeaway move up to left arm parallel DOWN before moving on. This is what Monte will tell you. 

 

Agreed. I'm feeling a little like Charles Barkley in that I've got too much going on. Hopefully I can avoid his double-hitch downswing! 😂

 

There's been a lot of learning on the fly for me through this process, and so I realize I've been plenty disjointed in this thread. It's one of those things where I have been trying to figure out one feel after another. The truth to me is that they're all connected--but through various times over the past two months I've been focusing on effects rather than causes. And that takeaway is one of the causes that needs to be fixed first. 

 

I think I see kinda where my progression has gone and is going:

1. I agree with Valtiel that I have a very arm/shoulder driven swing. From takeaway I'm leading with the arms without rotating the hips or shoulders and letting the shoulders catch up at the top. On the downswing I'm leading with the shoulders and throwing the arms out around the body, which sends my arms and the club out too fast that the shoulders and hips can't keep up. It's a sequencing problem on both fronts. 
2. I came into this looking at the flip move and the lack of hip rotation. I can't be focused on either at this point because--as Monte would say--those are the effects of things that occur earlier. I need to solve the root cause. So I'm not really focusing on those moves, which I needed to get away from.
3. That leaves the takeaway and the downswing move, both require properly connecting my arms to my rotation and not getting out of sync.
4. I WAS focusing on the downswing move, because I didn't really see anything wrong with the takeaway. But based on the comparison of my takeaway with Rahm that wagolfer7 brought up, and what I've seen both on videos and from the description of Valtiel about me being way too arm-driven, I've realized that it needs to change. The takeaway is flat as wagolfer7 points out and I try to compensate for that by letting my left arm slide up my chest and get the left shoulder down late, when it should all be one connected on-plane motion from the start. I think my previous issue where I started taking the club back slower was just a compensation for this--it allowed more time for everything to come together as I got closer to the top because I wasn't syncing on the takeaway properly. But I'd rather learn to do it correctly--you see some pros with very slow and deliberate backswings, but if you do it right you don't need it to be. 
5. So yes, right now I'm working on the takeaway move. I think that will help make the downswing move easier and more repeatable.

It's all still a bit unnatural, which I think is part of that frustration. Trying to fix the shoulder plane at the top of the backswing is going to lead to inconsistency relative to actually taking the club away in sync and on plane from the start. So I need to get to the top in a sync'ed, on-plane, and repeatable way. Easier said than done, but that's the first focus.

 

So as I said, I'm going to stop posting videos for a while and just work on this, because as you point out I need to get it down and ingrained before I move on to something else. And keeping on posting videos is just going to fill my head with too many other things.

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

30 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Agreed. I'm feeling a little like Charles Barkley in that I've got too much going on. Hopefully I can avoid his double-hitch downswing! 😂

 

There's been a lot of learning on the fly for me through this process, and so I realize I've been plenty disjointed in this thread. It's one of those things where I have been trying to figure out one feel after another. The truth to me is that they're all connected--but through various times over the past two months I've been focusing on effects rather than causes. And that takeaway is one of the causes that needs to be fixed first. 

 

I think I see kinda where my progression has gone and is going:

1. I agree with Valtiel that I have a very arm/shoulder driven swing. From takeaway I'm leading with the arms without rotating the hips or shoulders and letting the shoulders catch up at the top. On the downswing I'm leading with the shoulders and throwing the arms out around the body, which sends my arms and the club out too fast that the shoulders and hips can't keep up. It's a sequencing problem on both fronts. 
2. I came into this looking at the flip move and the lack of hip rotation. I can't be focused on either at this point because--as Monte would say--those are the effects of things that occur earlier. I need to solve the root cause. So I'm not really focusing on those moves, which I needed to get away from.
3. That leaves the takeaway and the downswing move, both require properly connecting my arms to my rotation and not getting out of sync.
4. I WAS focusing on the downswing move, because I didn't really see anything wrong with the takeaway. But based on the comparison of my takeaway with Rahm that wagolfer7 brought up, and what I've seen both on videos and from the description of Valtiel about me being way too arm-driven, I've realized that it needs to change. The takeaway is flat as wagolfer7 points out and I try to compensate for that by letting my left arm slide up my chest and get the left shoulder down late, when it should all be one connected on-plane motion from the start. I think my previous issue where I started taking the club back slower was just a compensation for this--it allowed more time for everything to come together as I got closer to the top because I wasn't syncing on the takeaway properly. But I'd rather learn to do it correctly--you see some pros with very slow and deliberate backswings, but if you do it right you don't need it to be. 
5. So yes, right now I'm working on the takeaway move. I think that will help make the downswing move easier and more repeatable.

It's all still a bit unnatural, which I think is part of that frustration. Trying to fix the shoulder plane at the top of the backswing is going to lead to inconsistency relative to actually taking the club away in sync and on plane from the start. So I need to get to the top in a sync'ed, on-plane, and repeatable way. Easier said than done, but that's the first focus.

 

So as I said, I'm going to stop posting videos for a while and just work on this, because as you point out I need to get it down and ingrained before I move on to something else. And keeping on posting videos is just going to fill my head with too many other things.

 

 

Once you're properly synced up at P3 the rest of the backswing is nothing more than a small turn of the shoulders. This is why it's such a critical step to get right before thinking about anything else. Focusing on this until you can do it with your eyes closed and no conscious thought will have a cascading effect on many other areas. Just work on P3 to P9 swings. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by TheDeanAbides

[betarhoalphadelta]

@TheDeanAbides What is your take on what Mike Granato says starting at about 10:28 in this video?

 

 

That was one of those aha! moments for me about not making the takeaway and backswing too much of an arm-dominated motion.

 

The notion of not pulling the arm across the chest, specifically. Basically the arms raise the club a little and hinge the wrists, but then for the rest of the motion they're just going along with the body rotation. 

 

I know in my early swing videos, I had a big forearm roll on takeaway, which I'm trying to work. But one of the key things I think I was doing was a very late hinge of the wrists. For example, here is me at P3 from just last week:

 

 

So I thought a lot about the hinge motion, and saw that video, and at the same time was thinking about the rotation and not being arm-dominated... And I feel like I'm letting my arms pull my body around, not the other way around. And that's where I thought about the fact that I've got this big motion sweeping the left arm across my chest and up to the top of the backswing.

 

It seems like the better idea is that the arms are basically just lifting the club and setting the wrists, and the rotation needs to be driven by the body not pulled by the arms. Right? 

[TheDeanAbides]

It might do you good to go and read some of the Jim Waldron ASI thread. The arms move out in front of us rather than across the chest (as you've discovered), but it looks like they go across and behind due to the 2D illusion. 

So, yes, the wrists hinge up and flatten and the arms move out at a 45* angle from the chest as it rotates. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Holy smokes!

 

On 4/26/2013 at 6:59 AM, Jim Waldron said:

Dependent arm motion means the way the arms are BEING MOVED BY THE PIVOT. So on the backswing, at the same time as you are executing the independent arm motion described above, your body is pivoting and moving the arms mostly in the horizontal dimension, like a baseball swing. Because our head stays steady in golf, our face/eyes is always facing the target line, and this creates a FIXED LINE OF SIGHT TOWARD THE BALL/TARGET LINE. So from our first person poinnt of view, it "looks like" we have moved our arms "across, around and behind our chest" to some degree, EVEN WHEN YOU DO THE CORRECT MOTION, and here is the key, when in reality, we have only MOVED OUR ARMS/HANDS ACROSS, AROUND AND BEHIND OUR FIXED LINE OF SIGHT, IE OUR FACE/EYES.

The problem with the golf swing is, if you are slightly bullt in the chest and shoulder girdle, and flexible with the upper arms, you can indeed move your hands/arms behind your chest to some degreee, ie "stuck". and then to "unstick" yourself on transition, you will throw the hands/arms away from you and toward your mid-line, or OTT and early release.

So in effect, when under the spell of the Illusion, you end up NOT pivoting correctly, to enough range of motion, and not fast enough in RPM speed, as the tour pros all do, because you are using INDEPENDENT ARM MOTION TO APPLY POWER TO THE BALL AT IMPACT, as your Pivot stalls out. Meaning your pivot-dependent arm motion actually slows down as you approach impact, and your independent or dis-connected across mid-line arm motion replaces that pivotr -powerd arm motion.

 

Yep. That's it! 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

43 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Holy smokes!

 

 

Yep. That's it! 

 

Hell yes. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Made it through over 100 pages of the ASI thread. Learned a lot. 

 

I get where a couple of my backswing issues come from... Starting to finally understand what "width" actually means in the swing. My backswing, as far as I can tell, wasn't a typical "high-handicap" backswing that sucks the arms inside and has nothing left but to come OTT on the downswing. But I finally understand the idea of blending the arms and the BS pivot together, starting the wrist c0ck sooner, and the importance of not letting my arms overrun the shoulders at the top. 

 

Also found the part interesting about the arms basically rotating in lockstep with the shoulder girdle from P6 through impact to be something I'd never even thought about--good news is that if I frame-by-frame my swing from the face-on view, I actually do that 😉

 

Between that and my recent work on reconnecting the arms on the DS, I'm not throwing away my angles with an early release and I'm reaching P6 almost where it needs to be... Hands are on the outside of the right thigh, when they should be in front of the right thigh as I understand it. 

 

Picked up another key later on in the thread, where he was talking about grip pressure... One of my issues is to try to muscle everything, including a death grip on the club. I know I need to reduce tension, but it doesn't always happen. I was amazed on Monday when I hit the range and was trying to relax my grip, just how much it freed up my motion. And with a free motion, I was hitting WAY more pure shots. 

 

Still don't understand why I can't open my hips or shoulders at impact, despite all the reading on ASI. 

 

Not going to post more videos, because as I said my brain is too full right now... Just an update on the journey.

 

Still not sure when I'll get the vaccine, but with COVID numbers dwindling in Orange County I got the green light from the wife on getting indoor golf lessons with Monte... Will probably be able to schedule the start of those soon. 

[TheDeanAbides]

10 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Made it through over 100 pages of the ASI thread. Learned a lot. 

 

I get where a couple of my backswing issues come from... Starting to finally understand what "width" actually means in the swing. My backswing, as far as I can tell, wasn't a typical "high-handicap" backswing that sucks the arms inside and has nothing left but to come OTT on the downswing. But I finally understand the idea of blending the arms and the BS pivot together, starting the wrist c0ck sooner, and the importance of not letting my arms overrun the shoulders at the top. 

 

Also found the part interesting about the arms basically rotating in lockstep with the shoulder girdle from P6 through impact to be something I'd never even thought about--good news is that if I frame-by-frame my swing from the face-on view, I actually do that 😉

 

Between that and my recent work on reconnecting the arms on the DS, I'm not throwing away my angles with an early release and I'm reaching P6 almost where it needs to be... Hands are on the outside of the right thigh, when they should be in front of the right thigh as I understand it. 

 

Picked up another key later on in the thread, where he was talking about grip pressure... One of my issues is to try to muscle everything, including a death grip on the club. I know I need to reduce tension, but it doesn't always happen. I was amazed on Monday when I hit the range and was trying to relax my grip, just how much it freed up my motion. And with a free motion, I was hitting WAY more pure shots. 

 

Still don't understand why I can't open my hips or shoulders at impact, despite all the reading on ASI. 

 

Not going to post more videos, because as I said my brain is too full right now... Just an update on the journey.

 

Still not sure when I'll get the vaccine, but with COVID numbers dwindling in Orange County I got the green light from the wife on getting indoor golf lessons with Monte... Will probably be able to schedule the start of those soon. 

Be careful with the grip. You still want a firm grip (6 or 7 out of 10) but relaxed forearms. 

 

Also watch out that when you reconnect on the downswing you don't become narrower. All tour pros are extending their right arm from the top. The bicep reconnects, but the arm is extending from the elbow. 

[YouDaHamHider]

12 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Made it through over 100 pages of the ASI thread. Learned a lot. 

 

I get where a couple of my backswing issues come from... Starting to finally understand what "width" actually means in the swing. My backswing, as far as I can tell, wasn't a typical "high-handicap" backswing that sucks the arms inside and has nothing left but to come OTT on the downswing. But I finally understand the idea of blending the arms and the BS pivot together, starting the wrist c0ck sooner, and the importance of not letting my arms overrun the shoulders at the top. 

 

Also found the part interesting about the arms basically rotating in lockstep with the shoulder girdle from P6 through impact to be something I'd never even thought about--good news is that if I frame-by-frame my swing from the face-on view, I actually do that 😉

 

Between that and my recent work on reconnecting the arms on the DS, I'm not throwing away my angles with an early release and I'm reaching P6 almost where it needs to be... Hands are on the outside of the right thigh, when they should be in front of the right thigh as I understand it. 

 

Picked up another key later on in the thread, where he was talking about grip pressure... One of my issues is to try to muscle everything, including a death grip on the club. I know I need to reduce tension, but it doesn't always happen. I was amazed on Monday when I hit the range and was trying to relax my grip, just how much it freed up my motion. And with a free motion, I was hitting WAY more pure shots. 

 

Still don't understand why I can't open my hips or shoulders at impact, despite all the reading on ASI. 

 

Not going to post more videos, because as I said my brain is too full right now... Just an update on the journey.

 

Still not sure when I'll get the vaccine, but with COVID numbers dwindling in Orange County I got the green light from the wife on getting indoor golf lessons with Monte... Will probably be able to schedule the start of those soon. 

Good job on managing to get through the ASI thread! I tried and failed more than once. Always ruined my game for a fortnight dipping my toes into that one. 😂

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Be careful with the grip. You still want a firm grip (6 or 7 out of 10) but relaxed forearms. 

 

Also watch out that when you reconnect on the downswing you don't become narrower. All tour pros are extending their right arm from the top. The bicep reconnects, but the arm is extending from the elbow. 

 

I've always heard the old Snead quote about gripping the club like a bird--tight enough that it won't fly away, but not so firm that you hurt it.

 

That said, I'm probably sure that no grip that I feel is "light" is going to be too light, and if I feel like the grip is firm, it's too tight. I think my error is generally on too much pressure, not too little. 

 

Understood regarding the reconnection. From the ASI thread, I think the idea is that I shouldn't be spending conscious motion on attempting to reconnect, but as long as I get in to the right place at the top and naturally let my arms follow my pivot, the reconnection happens. I think previously I was whipping my arms out and around, instead of letting it happen on its own. 

 

2 hours ago, YouDaHamHider said:

Good job on managing to get through the ASI thread! I tried and failed more than once. Always ruined my game for a fortnight dipping my toes into that one. 😂

 

I feel like there were a lot of nuggets of goodness in there, but some people took it way too seriously. It's really going to come down to in-person instruction with Monte.

 

Speaking of ruining one's game, I took lessons with a pro about a decade ago who was a Moe Norman devotee. The significance of that was unbeknownst to me at the time because I'd never heard of Moe. I feel like I'm still paying for what that did to my swing!

 

1 hour ago, laneholt said:

I have played almost every sport during my 81 years - Baseball , Basketball , Football . I threw thousands of rocks across ponds . I threw thousands of baseballs . Thousands of basketball. Thousands of footballs . All of these required holding an object with my HANDS and forming a lever and rotating it to propel them . As I recall , I never once thought about what my hips, shoulders , knees , feet were doing or where they were. I just sighted my target with my eyes and depended on  my RIGHT HAND to direct it to my target ! Until a few years ago I never knew that my HANDS didn’t possess the power to propel any object ! That the power came from the levers I formed !

    Yet - when it comes to golf we are told we must move this over there and this  over here while making sure this is at such and such a position while doing so . All within the 2/10 seconds allotted for the DS ????? How and why was this game made so difficult? 
  It is quite stunning to me ! 

 

Lane, are you familiar with the concept of a "strawman" argument? It's where you deliberately misconstrue someone's argument in a very weak way, and proceed to easily demolish it--like fighting a straw man.

 

Nobody is saying that one should be consciously trying to get their body into positions X, Y, and Z in the 2/10 of a second it takes to achieve the downswing. Nobody is capable of doing that with success anyway. 

 

That doesn't mean mechanics don't matter. Competitive athletes from HS onwards have coaches that are working on improving their mechanics. Pitchers, quarterbacks, basketball players. If millions of dollars rely on putting a fastball EXACTLY where they want it, on hitting a streaking receiver exactly in stride where the defender can't get the ball, or putting a big round ball through an only slightly larger hoop from 20+ feet away, you have to trust in yourself that you already know how to do the motion. They put insane effort into making sure that their mechanics are sound, because in the heat of the moment they have to rely on their subconscious to consistently do what it already knows how to do without conscious thought. 

 

My goal is to improve my mechanics, and then practice them, so my subconscious can perform them consistently and without thought. 

 

I'll go one past Gerry Hogan, who says the human brain can only have one thought in that 2/10 of a second, and say that the human brain cannot consciously control the DS action with ANY thoughts. The action is too fast and anything you're consciously trying to do will screw you up. Having a "swing thought" is purely a mental anchor with which to drive out distractions, not an actual conscious level of control over the DS. 

[TheDeanAbides]

30 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I've always heard the old Snead quote about gripping the club like a bird--tight enough that it won't fly away, but not so firm that you hurt it.

 

That said, I'm probably sure that no grip that I feel is "light" is going to be too light, and if I feel like the grip is firm, it's too tight. I think my error is generally on too much pressure, not too little. 

 

Understood regarding the reconnection. From the ASI thread, I think the idea is that I shouldn't be spending conscious motion on attempting to reconnect, but as long as I get in to the right place at the top and naturally let my arms follow my pivot, the reconnection happens. I think previously I was whipping my arms out and around, instead of letting it happen on its own. 

 

 

I feel like there were a lot of nuggets of goodness in there, but some people took it way too seriously. It's really going to come down to in-person instruction with Monte.

 

Speaking of ruining one's game, I took lessons with a pro about a decade ago who was a Moe Norman devotee. The significance of that was unbeknownst to me at the time because I'd never heard of Moe. I feel like I'm still paying for what that did to my swing!

 

 

Lane, are you familiar with the concept of a "strawman" argument? It's where you deliberately misconstrue someone's argument in a very weak way, and proceed to easily demolish it--like fighting a straw man.

 

Nobody is saying that one should be consciously trying to get their body into positions X, Y, and Z in the 2/10 of a second it takes to achieve the downswing. Nobody is capable of doing that with success anyway. 

 

That doesn't mean mechanics don't matter. Competitive athletes from HS onwards have coaches that are working on improving their mechanics. Pitchers, quarterbacks, basketball players. If millions of dollars rely on putting a fastball EXACTLY where they want it, on hitting a streaking receiver exactly in stride where the defender can't get the ball, or putting a big round ball through an only slightly larger hoop from 20+ feet away, you have to trust in yourself that you already know how to do the motion. They put insane effort into making sure that their mechanics are sound, because in the heat of the moment they have to rely on their subconscious to consistently do what it already knows how to do without conscious thought. 

 

My goal is to improve my mechanics, and then practice them, so my subconscious can perform them consistently and without thought. 

 

I'll go one past Gerry Hogan, who says the human brain can only have one thought in that 2/10 of a second, and say that the human brain cannot consciously control the DS action with ANY thoughts. The action is too fast and anything you're consciously trying to do will screw you up. Having a "swing thought" is purely a mental anchor with which to drive out distractions, not an actual conscious level of control over the DS. 

The rest of that Snead quote was "... and the bird is an eagle". Grip it tight. Ask any good player and they'll tell you that they're holding on tight but have no tension in the forearms.

 

Edit: I'm not sure Monte would agree with Jim regarding the use of the arms. Most ams would be well advised to do something consciously with the arms until they know how to use them properly. 

 

Oh and that's no point arguing with Lane. 😎

Edited March 11, 2021 by TheDeanAbides

[betarhoalphadelta]

I can throw a football a long way too... Just don't ask about my completion percentage 😉

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Had my lesson with Monte on Friday. He pretty much immediately identified what I was doing, and I not only got a "light bulb" moment on understanding how the swing works [and why mine wasn't], but learned the right drills and ideas on how to fix it.

 

Gonna take a lot of time and a lot of work, but I feel much better about how to make progress than I did 48 hours ago... 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

47 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Had my lesson with Monte on Friday. He pretty much immediately identified what I was doing, and I not only got a "light bulb" moment on understanding how the swing works [and why mine wasn't], but learned the right drills and ideas on how to fix it.

 

Gonna take a lot of time and a lot of work, but I feel much better about how to make progress than I did 48 hours ago... 

 

What did he say? 

[Valtiel]

2 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

What did he say? 

I'm curious as well. Glad it went well though!

[YouDaHamHider]

9 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Had my lesson with Monte on Friday. He pretty much immediately identified what I was doing, and I not only got a "light bulb" moment on understanding how the swing works [and why mine wasn't], but learned the right drills and ideas on how to fix it.

 

Gonna take a lot of time and a lot of work, but I feel much better about how to make progress than I did 48 hours ago... 

 

You can't leave us hanging on what the sensei said! 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Ok... Pics below are my own range swings rather than at the indoor facility. Bear in mind that I probably won't do his lesson justice with my paraphrasing of it--it's a lot to take in.

 

What *was* fun was when I was doing my initial swings for him on video I was hitting 7i. Because they have a Trackman, I was peeking at my stats. Always fun to see a 90 mph clubhead speed and 171 yard carry on the screen with a 7i 😉

 

Overall he actually thought there wasn't a huge amount to change. I was a bit surprised that he really didn't worry about my grip or my backswing at all. As it stands I was going to sign up for a 5-lesson package, but I'm thinking that won't be necessary. I'm sure this won't be the last lesson though... 

 

What I had told him was that while I talk about having a "four-way miss", my real problem is low point control. I never know whether I'm going to flush, thin, or chunk any given shot. He immediately saw with my stall/flip that my low point was too far back and destined to be inconsistent. 

 

But he identified that what I'm dealing with is a sequencing problem. My swing is too dominated and led by shoulder rotation, which gets the hands stuck behind. I have to stall/flip to give the hands time to catch up. 

 

The first thing he pointed out was this:

 

 

Basically said that at P6, you need your hands out in front of the toe line. A lot of people who turn the shoulders too early end up with a bit OTT move, but I have trained myself not to do that by dropping the hands inside to compensate. Too much is OTT, too little is what I'm doing, so need to find that happy medium.

 

Also said that the bent left elbow that I had at impact is going to cause problems--not that it's necessarily "incorrect", as you can manage a swing with it, but that it was going to be hard to find the consistency I'm looking for. 

 

So his first drill is an exaggeration drill to help to get the hands out first, which somewhat forces the body to have to rotate to play catch up to the hands rather than the other way around. Basically it's like one of the AMG drills I posted upthread, but instead of starting at a P6 where you've already gotten into ideal delivery position, you take your backswing and then drop the club to P6 (outside the toe line) without rotating, and then rotate through from there. So you're completely closed at P6 and have to force your body to properly rotate through. 

 

The exaggeration drill was funny, because after I'd done my warmup, he says "I'll get you shaft lean in one swing" and had me do that drill. Boom... First one, showed the video and I had shaft lean, my left side extending, and my left arm straight. 

 

The second thing, and this was the light bulb moment, was the idea of "keeping the back to the target longer". I have NEVER understood what that meant. It seems ridiculous... How can you rotate if you keep your back to the target?!

 

So he showed me Rory, who he said is one of the best at this, and me...

 

 

Rory is already at hips square at this point and still might be rotated more back to the camera with his shoulders than I am, whereas I'm sitting there with my lower body practically still in backswing position when my DS is almost half over. Maybe I don't have Rory's flexibility, but I know I can do a lot better than I am!

 

It took some understanding of how to get there. But once I understood it, I took a backswing and moved my hips and asked "like this?" and he said yeah--if you can do that you've got it. 

 

So the drill he had me do for this was just simple, slow chip/pitch shots, focusing on that move. What I saw in the video was startling... Immediately just on those tiny little pitches, I saw the weight transfer to the left side, the left hip clearing, and the "squat". On face-on video I was seeing impact positions with the left side open and extended, left arm straight, and shaft lean. He showed me one of the DTL videos post-impact and said "I think we can both agree that's not a flip."

 

The key is that I finally understood what is supposed to happen with the lower body on the downswing. The rotation occurs from the pelvis up to the sternum initially, and the shoulders will have to come along for the ride eventually, but you don't want them in the lead. And in the slow-speed chip/pitch shots, I know what it feels like and what it's supposed to look like, so I'll know how to drill it. 

 

Granted, those are just drills. He said that trying to actually extend that into a full speed swing is going to be hard, and can't really predict how quickly it will "take". Some might get it in a month, some it might take many months. 

 

But the plan is to work this at the range, alternating between doing several swings of the drills, and then a few full swings trying to get the same "back to the target" feel while the rotation starts below the chest. 

[YouDaHamHider]

4 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Ok... Pics below are my own range swings rather than at the indoor facility. Bear in mind that I probably won't do his lesson justice with my paraphrasing of it--it's a lot to take in.

 

What *was* fun was when I was doing my initial swings for him on video I was hitting 7i. Because they have a Trackman, I was peeking at my stats. Always fun to see a 90 mph clubhead speed and 171 yard carry on the screen with a 7i 😉

 

Overall he actually thought there wasn't a huge amount to change. I was a bit surprised that he really didn't worry about my grip or my backswing at all. As it stands I was going to sign up for a 5-lesson package, but I'm thinking that won't be necessary. I'm sure this won't be the last lesson though... 

 

What I had told him was that while I talk about having a "four-way miss", my real problem is low point control. I never know whether I'm going to flush, thin, or chunk any given shot. He immediately saw with my stall/flip that my low point was too far back and destined to be inconsistent. 

 

But he identified that what I'm dealing with is a sequencing problem. My swing is too dominated and led by shoulder rotation, which gets the hands stuck behind. I have to stall/flip to give the hands time to catch up. 

 

The first thing he pointed out was this:

 

 

Basically said that at P6, you need your hands out in front of the toe line. A lot of people who turn the shoulders too early end up with a bit OTT move, but I have trained myself not to do that by dropping the hands inside to compensate. Too much is OTT, too little is what I'm doing, so need to find that happy medium.

 

Also said that the bent left elbow that I had at impact is going to cause problems--not that it's necessarily "incorrect", as you can manage a swing with it, but that it was going to be hard to find the consistency I'm looking for. 

 

So his first drill is an exaggeration drill to help to get the hands out first, which somewhat forces the body to have to rotate to play catch up to the hands rather than the other way around. Basically it's like one of the AMG drills I posted upthread, but instead of starting at a P6 where you've already gotten into ideal delivery position, you take your backswing and then drop the club to P6 (outside the toe line) without rotating, and then rotate through from there. So you're completely closed at P6 and have to force your body to properly rotate through. 

 

The exaggeration drill was funny, because after I'd done my warmup, he says "I'll get you shaft lean in one swing" and had me do that drill. Boom... First one, showed the video and I had shaft lean, my left side extending, and my left arm straight. 

 

The second thing, and this was the light bulb moment, was the idea of "keeping the back to the target longer". I have NEVER understood what that meant. It seems ridiculous... How can you rotate if you keep your back to the target?!

 

So he showed me Rory, who he said is one of the best at this, and me...

 

 

Rory is already at hips square at this point and still might be rotated more back to the camera with his shoulders than I am, whereas I'm sitting there with my lower body practically still in backswing position when my DS is almost half over. Maybe I don't have Rory's flexibility, but I know I can do a lot better than I am!

 

It took some understanding of how to get there. But once I understood it, I took a backswing and moved my hips and asked "like this?" and he said yeah--if you can do that you've got it. 

 

So the drill he had me do for this was just simple, slow chip/pitch shots, focusing on that move. What I saw in the video was startling... Immediately just on those tiny little pitches, I saw the weight transfer to the left side, the left hip clearing, and the "squat". On face-on video I was seeing impact positions with the left side open and extended, left arm straight, and shaft lean. He showed me one of the DTL videos post-impact and said "I think we can both agree that's not a flip."

 

The key is that I finally understood what is supposed to happen with the lower body on the downswing. The rotation occurs from the pelvis up to the sternum initially, and the shoulders will have to come along for the ride eventually, but you don't want them in the lead. And in the slow-speed chip/pitch shots, I know what it feels like and what it's supposed to look like, so I'll know how to drill it. 

 

Granted, those are just drills. He said that trying to actually extend that into a full speed swing is going to be hard, and can't really predict how quickly it will "take". Some might get it in a month, some it might take many months. 

 

But the plan is to work this at the range, alternating between doing several swings of the drills, and then a few full swings trying to get the same "back to the target" feel while the rotation starts below the chest. 

Thanks for the write up. Really appreciated it. 

[TheDeanAbides]

Excellent. I really hope you make this your own - you deserve it!

[Tanner25]

On 3/12/2021 at 5:30 AM, laneholt said:

I understand- that applies to every Human , but the natural method to throw a ball is THE SAME FOR ALL HUMANS . I can’t propel a golf ball near as far as someone who’s muscles are more elongated than mine and I will never hit it as far as they can. However, I use the same body parts to achieve the same ball flight and my ball adheres to the same Laws of Motion / Flight !

     You throw objects the same way all humans do. When you threw a football at a receiver which required you to form a plan in your brain to make a split second decision to perform this precision task that will ONLY TAKE APPROX. 2/10 seconds - what part of the body did your brain send that message to carry out it’s plan?

     Were  you thinking about your FEET, HIPS , ANKLES, SHOULDERS , TEETH , your HELMET   ??? What part of your body did you depend on to direct that object in the direction and distance your brain calculated for you ?

Just asking !

 

 

 

Lane, You are very confident in your message to Beta. Can you please, share your thoughts on how you successfully complete the downswing? 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Tanner25

[Valtiel]

12 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Ok... Pics below are my own range swings rather than at the indoor facility. Bear in mind that I probably won't do his lesson justice with my paraphrasing of it--it's a lot to take in.

 

What *was* fun was when I was doing my initial swings for him on video I was hitting 7i. Because they have a Trackman, I was peeking at my stats. Always fun to see a 90 mph clubhead speed and 171 yard carry on the screen with a 7i 😉

 

Overall he actually thought there wasn't a huge amount to change. I was a bit surprised that he really didn't worry about my grip or my backswing at all. As it stands I was going to sign up for a 5-lesson package, but I'm thinking that won't be necessary. I'm sure this won't be the last lesson though... 

 

What I had told him was that while I talk about having a "four-way miss", my real problem is low point control. I never know whether I'm going to flush, thin, or chunk any given shot. He immediately saw with my stall/flip that my low point was too far back and destined to be inconsistent. 

 

But he identified that what I'm dealing with is a sequencing problem. My swing is too dominated and led by shoulder rotation, which gets the hands stuck behind. I have to stall/flip to give the hands time to catch up. 

 

The first thing he pointed out was this:

 

 

Basically said that at P6, you need your hands out in front of the toe line. A lot of people who turn the shoulders too early end up with a bit OTT move, but I have trained myself not to do that by dropping the hands inside to compensate. Too much is OTT, too little is what I'm doing, so need to find that happy medium.

 

Also said that the bent left elbow that I had at impact is going to cause problems--not that it's necessarily "incorrect", as you can manage a swing with it, but that it was going to be hard to find the consistency I'm looking for. 

 

So his first drill is an exaggeration drill to help to get the hands out first, which somewhat forces the body to have to rotate to play catch up to the hands rather than the other way around. Basically it's like one of the AMG drills I posted upthread, but instead of starting at a P6 where you've already gotten into ideal delivery position, you take your backswing and then drop the club to P6 (outside the toe line) without rotating, and then rotate through from there. So you're completely closed at P6 and have to force your body to properly rotate through. 

 

The exaggeration drill was funny, because after I'd done my warmup, he says "I'll get you shaft lean in one swing" and had me do that drill. Boom... First one, showed the video and I had shaft lean, my left side extending, and my left arm straight. 

 

The second thing, and this was the light bulb moment, was the idea of "keeping the back to the target longer". I have NEVER understood what that meant. It seems ridiculous... How can you rotate if you keep your back to the target?!

 

So he showed me Rory, who he said is one of the best at this, and me...

 

 

Rory is already at hips square at this point and still might be rotated more back to the camera with his shoulders than I am, whereas I'm sitting there with my lower body practically still in backswing position when my DS is almost half over. Maybe I don't have Rory's flexibility, but I know I can do a lot better than I am!

 

It took some understanding of how to get there. But once I understood it, I took a backswing and moved my hips and asked "like this?" and he said yeah--if you can do that you've got it. 

 

So the drill he had me do for this was just simple, slow chip/pitch shots, focusing on that move. What I saw in the video was startling... Immediately just on those tiny little pitches, I saw the weight transfer to the left side, the left hip clearing, and the "squat". On face-on video I was seeing impact positions with the left side open and extended, left arm straight, and shaft lean. He showed me one of the DTL videos post-impact and said "I think we can both agree that's not a flip."

 

The key is that I finally understood what is supposed to happen with the lower body on the downswing. The rotation occurs from the pelvis up to the sternum initially, and the shoulders will have to come along for the ride eventually, but you don't want them in the lead. And in the slow-speed chip/pitch shots, I know what it feels like and what it's supposed to look like, so I'll know how to drill it. 

 

Granted, those are just drills. He said that trying to actually extend that into a full speed swing is going to be hard, and can't really predict how quickly it will "take". Some might get it in a month, some it might take many months. 

 

But the plan is to work this at the range, alternating between doing several swings of the drills, and then a few full swings trying to get the same "back to the target" feel while the rotation starts below the chest. 

Thanks for the follow up! I'm glad that Monte was able to confirm some of the things discussed in the thread previously and that he had some great ways for you to both see and feel what was going on and what needed to change. That is the real crux of it because any random dude on the internet with a little knowledge, me included, can point things out but knowing how to effectively get someone to feel what those things are and how to correct them is the important part. Keep at it!