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Should new irons be this frustrating?


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True WRXers would’ve put them on BST after 9 holes...  

True story.. I picked up a cheap set of used P760's as an experiment that did not go well.    I had them listed by the 8th hole, got a flood of messages straight way, and they sold by the 13

You guys really give a set of irons several months if they are not performing?  I’ll go in the other direction on this one.  If I was really struggling with them I would very quickly be asking myself

I think you should give it a couple weeks so you can at least fully identify the issues before taking them back so you know what needs to change if you decide to go a different direction. I think its a little wild that people are saying if they don't work day 1 then they'll never work, these are significantly different than your other irons so there will be an adjustment. Also sometimes its can be a mental thing if you've been playing the same set of irons for a very long time and then switch.

 

If you are able to go back to where you were fit and work with them I would definitely do that, and confirm all the specs are correct.

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1 hour ago, mahuwf said:

Thanks for all the input. These are the first irons I've ever had fit to me, so I'm trying to figure out how much leash these should have (recognizing the weights are substantially different).

 

Also perhaps potentially relevant: in the Bio Cells, I had midsize grips. The i210s have standard. Could this also be a reason I've gotten super "handsy" with these? My fitter said I'm right on the line between standard and midsize and like I said, I hit them really well in the fitting so we left the standard on there. Does grip size make more than just a marginal difference here?

 

Guess I'm wondering how the old irons and new ones felt so similar(?) (I'm assuming here that the old ones felt pretty good but the new ones felt even better).

 

One would think the i210s, especially with a much heavier shaft would've felt completely different, great results or not. Red flag.

 

You hit a draw with the former and now weak fades ? The Bio Cells, a (S?)GI club, has more offset and more weight to the toe side to help you square up the club. Result is straighter shots and even draws.

 

Now you've got a club that YOU have to square up without the help.

 

Now grip size can be an issue. The new grips are thinner. That would typically provide a little help squaring up the club but can also lead to flipping and other issues as you've mentioned.

 

A little surprised you didn't override, especially being that the fitter(?) said you're a "tweener". If I was in between I'd go with what I'm already comfortable with.

 

But the 210s are definitely less forgiving. And combining that with the much heavier shafts, there's no wonder you're having issues.

 

But while I'd typically agree with feeling comfortable very quickly (after all, that's the point of clubs fitting your swing), in this case I'd give it at least a little time given how different the 2 clubs are; maybe half a dozen rounds.

 

If you're still having issues, I'd go back and see what the shop has to say before taking advantage of the 90 day return and getting something else.

 

Good luck. high five.gif

 

 

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Not all fitters or fittings are equal. Maybe you had a bad fitting? Or you just swing different indoors than on the course?

Perhaps the grip size change coupled with a completely different shaft has disrupted or changed what you have grown accustomed to in your swing?

I had a similar experience as you several years ago, I switched from Cobra FPIIs to Ping i15s and it was disastrous. I finally sold the Pings. 

 

 

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I can see an adjustment period of a range session or 2, getting an eye for how they sit behind the ball & the weight differences but shouldn't take more than that..

 

You have made 2 drastic changes

1. Going from the larger more forgiving game improvement head to the smaller less forgiving players iron where missing the center is a lot more punishing.. 

2. Going into the PX shaft (I'm assuming 6.0 stiff 120G ?) especially having coming from the lighter shaft..  The PX shafts are quite a bit stiffer profile than most & very boardy IMO.. The fades are more than likely coming from these being too stiff of a shaft for you (inability to load/ release=Right)

 

I would lean more towards an improper fitting.. 

 

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2 hours ago, mahuwf said:

Also perhaps potentially relevant: in the Bio Cells, I had midsize grips. The i210s have standard. Could this also be a reason I've gotten super "handsy" with these? My fitter said I'm right on the line between standard and midsize and like I said, I hit them really well in the fitting so we left the standard on there. Does grip size make more than just a marginal difference here?

I've always been told feel for grip size is more important than your measurements so if you getting midsizers on the new set to make you feel just that little bit more comfortable with them would be very worth it in my book

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3 hours ago, jll62 said:

 

I could not disagree more with the idea of new clubs requiring an adjustment period. If the club fits properly, it should perform well right away.

 

If you find that you need time to adjust to the club, what that really means is that you're making a series of small compensations to account for the clubs not fitting. While it's possible the player will end up in a better spot than they were before, more often than not it goes the other way and the player ends up ingraining some bad habits in their swing, setup, etc.

 

A new club gets two, maybe three swings from me. Anything more than that and I know I'll be subconsciously changing myself to fit the club.

 

 

Although we're not at the Pro level, how often do you see guys just putting things into play right away with minimal experience, and these are the guys with the most repeatable swings in the world.  They aren't "engraining" a bad habit or anything, but will still have to be changing a known constant (performance of previous set) to an unknown. 

 

Even in shaft changes when they have everything at their finger tips, let alone when changing out 30+ grams in weight and profile...

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18 hours ago, mahuwf said:

Just before Christmas I got fit into a set of i210 with the Project X stiff shafts and I’m really struggling with my ball striking with them. Fats, thins, and flipping. It’s incredibly frustrating. 
 

I had a set of Cobra Bio Cells with huge offset that my game had outgrown (so I thought) and I wanted to progress into better irons. The Bio Cells had stiff 85 gram shafts and they were not fit to me. I can’t help but think that the i210 shafts are too heavy and keep getting stuck behind me. The thing is, I hit them great on the monitor at Edwin Watts and they felt amazing. Since then, I’m hitting lots of weak fades, where my typical ball flight has always been a draw. I’m an 11 hdcp and I really wanted something that I could dial in more precision with. 
 

 I don’t expect equipment to make me better, but I certainly don’t expect it to make me worse either. Is it typical to have such an adjustment period to new irons? My excitement for these new irons has really waned and I have far less confidence in hitting a green from 150 now than I did with the Bio Cells. What gives?

 

I recently switched my irons to MB and it took me about good 7 days of course play and range time before I fully adjusted.

 

It was just a head change as I kept my same shaft model (Modus 120 s) from my previous to the new. Once you find a shaft that works it is better to keep them unless there are drastic changes to the swing or just found something that really outperforms.

 

Drastic increase in shaft weight is not really recommended so not sure why your fitter would have given those shafts to you. I would have assumed they would have given you shafts like Modus 105, Nippon 95g range or the likes which are lighter weight if slight increase in weight is what you were after.

 

You can play with the set for many months but I have slight hope that it will work out for you. Sorry not to be a party pooper but just coming from experience. I once switched my driver shaft out of curiousity from 65g range to 85g for good 3 months and it never worked out.

 

Best fit for any club is getting the results you want with easy swing and not feeling too tired after a round of golf. 

 

I would personally go for another fitting session and bring your current irons along to compare. If not a good fit better to sell it off before it futher depreciates.

 

Another option is to find the right shaft during fitting and replace the iron shafts completely and sell off your project x. Hope all works out well for you as I know how frustrating it can be. 

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5 hours ago, mahuwf said:

Thanks for all the input. These are the first irons I've ever had fit to me, so I'm trying to figure out how much leash these should have (recognizing the weights are substantially different).

 

Also perhaps potentially relevant: in the Bio Cells, I had midsize grips. The i210s have standard. Could this also be a reason I've gotten super "handsy" with these? My fitter said I'm right on the line between standard and midsize and like I said, I hit them really well in the fitting so we left the standard on there. Does grip size make more than just a marginal difference here?

When you're hitting them, what's in your mind? Anything about the club such as:

Man, these are heavy/light.

Wow, these grips seem small/huge.

This shaft is really stiff/whippy.

I just can't feel the clubhead or clubhead feels like it weighs a ton.

 

Any of these will play h e l l with your swing and timing. Hence the crappy shots. Whatever doesn't feel right, get the fitter to MAKE IT RIGHT, then go hit them again. Odds are you will hit them better.

 

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Have you been on the course with them yet?

 

My first set of clubs were Taylormade R7s with whatever stiff shaft they put in those as the stock offering.  I had no concept of shaft weight or anything; I just went to Dicks, hit a couple of irons on the launch monitor, the guy said I was hitting those better than the others, and I bought them.  Looking at TM's club specs by year, it looks like it was a 90 gram shaft.

 

After playing a few years, I was at a Golfsmith and hit a set of used Mizuno MP-62 and was smitten.  I had read on forums about the cult following of Mizuno irons, and found myself as a convert.  However, I ended up buying a new set of MP-57 with DG S300 shafts because they were deeply discounted.

 

My first range session was a disaster.  I thought I had made a huge mistake.  In hindsight, I had an unfamiliar iron in my hand that were night-and-day different (forged players cavity with 130 gram shafts) than the R7 (SGI with 90 gram shafts) they were replacing, and I was probably pressing a bit.  Once I got them on the course and I was playing golf instead of golf swing, I was fine.  I was probably an 18 handicap at the time and had no business playing those irons, but I didn't have any problems after that initial dumpster fire of a range session.

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19 hours ago, sociojeje said:

That's why i am very hesitant to change my irons (11+ years). One day, i felt like i'm determined. But then, I think what if i struggle? More than this, what's the point? Or, it could be a fitting issue. Did you go back to the simulator and hit YOUR irons, not the irons for fitting? Also, many people, including me, hit much better with a square setup of simulator. 

 

I think as long as you aren't making a huge change in shafts, you'll be fine.  If you go from one shaft to another, without a huge difference in weight, the learning curve isn't very steep.  I once went from a 90g to a 130g (detailed in my post above), and that was a bit of a shock initially.  I went from those same 130g shafts to a 115g and there was zero adjustment period.  I do miss a heavier shaft though.  I think my next set will be in the 120-125g range.

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5 hours ago, gwelfgulfer said:

 

 

Although we're not at the Pro level, how often do you see guys just putting things into play right away with minimal experience, and these are the guys with the most repeatable swings in the world.  They aren't "engraining" a bad habit or anything, but will still have to be changing a known constant (performance of previous set) to an unknown. 

 

Even in shaft changes when they have everything at their finger tips, let alone when changing out 30+ grams in weight and profile...

While that’s true I can all but guarantee that pros would not suffer through a long period where they are struggling with new clubs.  Sure they may have a slight adjustment period but if the clubs are changing their ball flight in a way they don’t like you can bet they will be looking for something else...

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IF you can get out and hit some balls, try swinging in tempo and finishing high, and holding the follow-through. The new shafts are heavier, plus PX is one of the most robust metal shafts.

 

Details: Are you using PX 6.0 / 120 grams? PX Profile: these are for players with fast tempo who want low trajectory and low spin. Does that fit you?

 

Given you're coming from 85 gram shafts, I'm surprised the fitter didn't look at PX LZ (Gives medium trajectory and medium spin)

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2 hours ago, jomatty said:

While that’s true I can all but guarantee that pros would not suffer through a long period where they are struggling with new clubs.  Sure they may have a slight adjustment period but if the clubs are changing their ball flight in a way they don’t like you can bet they will be looking for something else...

 

Disagree.  It's been well documented that players even of the highest caliber have struggled after equipment changes, even for a prolonged period of time.  Obviously it will be user dependent, but isn't a sure thing that everything will go smoothly.

 

As much as I know my I210s are great heads and they perform really well (distance control has been exceptional).  I still don't have the same confidence with them as I did my old I20s even after half a season of use.  Just a comfort level.

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I would first go back to the fitter and have them measure swing weight compared to the club you got fit with.  If swing weight is off that needs to be considered.

 

I would hit both irons, the one you got fit with and the one built for you.  See how you hit both.  If you're struggling with yours and not the fit one, beyond swing weight check the lie angle.

 

The other thing I'd recommend is ask to use the mizuno shaft optimizer.  It does a great job on showing best shaft options.  

 

Project x are stout shafts.  Sounds like you might need something more active.  I would look at px lz, kbs tour, modus 105 or 120.  

 

I would do another round of fitting and tell them how unsatisfied you are.  They will want to make it right,  if they're worth it.

 

I don't believe in having a break in period.  They'll either feel good with weight and head awareness or they won't.

 

Don't settle, i210s are great clubs.  I think you just got a bad shaft fitting

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On 1/10/2021 at 5:18 PM, mahuwf said:

Just before Christmas I got fit into a set of i210 with the Project X stiff shafts and I’m really struggling with my ball striking with them. Fats, thins, and flipping. It’s incredibly frustrating. 
 

I had a set of Cobra Bio Cells with huge offset that my game had outgrown (so I thought) and I wanted to progress into better irons. The Bio Cells had stiff 85 gram shafts and they were not fit to me. I can’t help but think that the i210 shafts are too heavy and keep getting stuck behind me. The thing is, I hit them great on the monitor at Edwin Watts and they felt amazing. Since then, I’m hitting lots of weak fades, where my typical ball flight has always been a draw. I’m an 11 hdcp and I really wanted something that I could dial in more precision with. 
 

 I don’t expect equipment to make me better, but I certainly don’t expect it to make me worse either. Is it typical to have such an adjustment period to new irons? My excitement for these new irons has really waned and I have far less confidence in hitting a green from 150 now than I did with the Bio Cells. What gives?

I didn't get along with PX shafts when I went to them from my X100s. Definitely a different feel and kick and made for a little acclamation. Never really fully clicked but, I can see why some pros like them. Now C-Tapers, those are my jam. Big fan of those. 

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You aren’t loading the PX shafts ... causing big issues

 

PX are very butt firm and feel really diff than other brands ... and are not working for your swing... common

 

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The only issue I’ve had with correctly fitted clubs has been distance control, ie the clubs are going further than I am used to. Never had issues with the strike.

 

When I’ve been badly fitted for clubs, then I’ve never been able to get along with them. Case in point when Ping fit me for The G sft driver despite my stock shot being a draw. The thing just went left. Persevered with that thing for 2 years like an idiot and the minute I went back to a non draw bias driver I had no issues. 

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Grip size will not make that big of a difference. Maybe a tiny fraction but it wont cause an 11 HC to hit irons like a 30HC 

 

1) did this fitting entail actually a full fitting? Or did they just "fit" you into something they had there on the rack? Or was it a fitting where everything was built offsite, custom ordered, length loft lie? 

2) the fats and thins could be a product of the mats covering up some inconsistency that already existed. 

3) the massive change in weight and offset will definitely produce a different swing feel, I imagine the club head will be harder to feel with the new clubs, and maybe you just need to get used to that, or maybe it was a poor fitting. Tough to say. 

4)the weak right shots could be a lie angle change, or incorrect lie on the order, or build, or wrong fit all together, lie angle can definitely change a left to right. 

5)maybe whoever built them put them at the wrong swing weight? 

 

In any case, I wouldn't be waiting around, I would address it with them ASAP, at the very least have lie, and swing weight checked and verified. 30-35 grams is a lot for a shaft change, but not enough for the issues you have now. Some fitters have a tendency to fit you into something they think you should be in, and vice versa some fitters will let you push yourself into something you shouldn't be in. Sometimes a fitting can turn into a lesson, and you start striping it for a short time while a fitter was making adjustments to your swing during the fitting that dont stick when you get home. Sometimes it's just a garbage fitter who has no business being a fitter. Go hit the new ones on the monitor again and see if same thing happens there. A good fitter will be able to see what is going on with the new clubs you just bought. 

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2 hours ago, gwelfgulfer said:

 

Disagree.  It's been well documented that players even of the highest caliber have struggled after equipment changes, even for a prolonged period of time.  Obviously it will be user dependent, but isn't a sure thing that everything will go smoothly.

 

As much as I know my I210s are great heads and they perform really well (distance control has been exceptional).  I still don't have the same confidence with them as I did my old I20s even after half a season of use.  Just a comfort level.

Players of the highest caliber yes, have struggled with wrong clubs. But be careful what you mean by struggle with a pro. This is a pro struggle: their carry for a 7iron is off by 3 yards, and its ever so slightly falling off to the right when they're used to seeing it fall left or straight. Or my 5 iron is spinning 500 RPM too much, and my land angle is too steep. Or im pulling my PW 4 yards left when its usually on 2 yards on my misses. And guess what that can add up to 4-5-6-7 shots in a 4 day tournament. Which put them instead of top 10, to barely making the cut. Thats their struggle with a bad fit, or wrong equipment. Not all of a sudden going from a (guessing) +5,+6,+7,+8 HC depending on the pro, to a 8-10 HC. OP said he was 11 HC, now fat thin push slice, equivalent to maybe a 20-25 HC. You can put ANY and I mean ANY set of irons in a pros hands and they'll still kick the *hit out of any scratch player, bad fitting or not. They'll still be at or under par on a normal course, hitting the wrong clubs plenty pure. Doesn't mean they cant play golf anymore. This was either a terrible fitting/fitter, something wrong with the build of the club, or there is something going on with OPs swing or swing thought. 

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6 hours ago, gwelfgulfer said:

 

Disagree.  It's been well documented that players even of the highest caliber have struggled after equipment changes, even for a prolonged period of time.  Obviously it will be user dependent, but isn't a sure thing that everything will go smoothly.

 

As much as I know my I210s are great heads and they perform really well (distance control has been exceptional).  I still don't have the same confidence with them as I did my old I20s even after half a season of use.  Just a comfort level.

Struggled yes, but had their shot shape change completely, I doubt it.  Also if there is a contractual inability to make a change it is slightly different (ala Sergio).  So it is true that there are exceptions to the point I was making, but I still think it is mostly valid.

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On 1/11/2021 at 12:18 PM, mahuwf said:

Just before Christmas I got fit into a set of i210 with the Project X stiff shafts and I’m really struggling with my ball striking with them. Fats, thins, and flipping. It’s incredibly frustrating. 
 

I had a set of Cobra Bio Cells with huge offset that my game had outgrown (so I thought) and I wanted to progress into better irons. The Bio Cells had stiff 85 gram shafts and they were not fit to me. I can’t help but think that the i210 shafts are too heavy and keep getting stuck behind me. The thing is, I hit them great on the monitor at Edwin Watts and they felt amazing. Since then, I’m hitting lots of weak fades, where my typical ball flight has always been a draw. I’m an 11 hdcp and I really wanted something that I could dial in more precision with. 
 

 I don’t expect equipment to make me better, but I certainly don’t expect it to make me worse either. Is it typical to have such an adjustment period to new irons? My excitement for these new irons has really waned and I have far less confidence in hitting a green from 150 now than I did with the Bio Cells. What gives?

Get to the range and smack a lot of balls , I got a new set of sticks just prior to Christmas and have been twice a week since, that’s probably over 500 balls , that’ll do it has helped get my covid busted game back on the rails 

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I tend to be on the give it time side.  A lot amateurs don't have the time to practice everyday, so a couple of months is going to the range 1-2 times a week, and playing 1-2 times a month?  That's really not a lot of time with a set of irons.  If you've had a set of irons for a long time, there's a lot of comfort built in there.  It would be different if someone could practice and play just about everyday.  

 

Each person is different, but I tend to give a set of irons time.  I don't usually change iron shafts, so the adjustment is how the irons go thru the turf and different lies.  

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23 hours ago, gwelfgulfer said:

 

 

Although we're not at the Pro level, how often do you see guys just putting things into play right away with minimal experience, and these are the guys with the most repeatable swings in the world.  They aren't "engraining" a bad habit or anything, but will still have to be changing a known constant (performance of previous set) to an unknown. 

 

Even in shaft changes when they have everything at their finger tips, let alone when changing out 30+ grams in weight and profile...

 

You're talking about play testing a club, which is different than the first impression swings to which I was referring. The first impression swings are where you can immediately tell that a shaft profile is wrong, a club is too light/heavy, or maybe the ball launches into the wrong window, etc. If you put a good swing on it ("good" being relative to the player's ability) and the club doesn't perform correctly, it never will unless you make compensations. An exception can be made for adjustable clubs that just need a setting tweaked, but each setting change only gets a couple of swings and it should be fairly close to begin with.

 

If a club gets past this initial test, then we can play test it to see if we can hit the various shots we want to hit, see how it performs in different types of lies, etc. And some players just like to gain confidence with a club by seeing that it performed under pressure, maybe in a match with buddies, before it finds the bag for competition. That's why pros aren't putting new clubs in right away, even when they pass the first impression.

 

And to be clear, this is all relative to the player's skill level. A tour pro, a scratch, and a 15 handicap will all have different levels of what it means for the club to work; but we all know. Tiger had a great video a number of years back where he was testing some 3 woods at a clinic and talked about this. He would only try a club for a couple of swings. If it worked, then it would get more testing. If something was off, the club was out. None of us have Tiger's feel, obviously, but the same concept applies. We all know what a good shot is for our game. If a good swing doesn't produce a good shot, the club isn't going to work without compensations. I've seen many buddies ruin their swings over the years trying to make ill-fit clubs work for them. Not worth it.

 

If someone is changing something in the club by 30g, I'd say first impression is even more important. There should be a reason for that dramatic of a change and if that fits the player, there should be an immediate change in positive outcome.

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13 minutes ago, jll62 said:

 

You're talking about play testing a club, which is different than the first impression swings to which I was referring. The first impression swings are where you can immediately tell that a shaft profile is wrong, a club is too light/heavy, or maybe the ball launches into the wrong window, etc. If you put a good swing on it ("good" being relative to the player's ability) and the club doesn't perform correctly, it never will unless you make compensations. An exception can be made for adjustable clubs that just need a setting tweaked, but each setting change only gets a couple of swings and it should be fairly close to begin with.

 

If a club gets past this initial test, then we can play test it to see if we can hit the various shots we want to hit, see how it performs in different types of lies, etc. And some players just like to gain confidence with a club by seeing that it performed under pressure, maybe in a match with buddies, before it finds the bag for competition. That's why pros aren't putting new clubs in right away, even when they pass the first impression.

 

And to be clear, this is all relative to the player's skill level. A tour pro, a scratch, and a 15 handicap will all have different levels of what it means for the club to work; but we all know. Tiger had a great video a number of years back where he was testing some 3 woods at a clinic and talked about this. He would only try a club for a couple of swings. If it worked, then it would get more testing. If something was off, the club was out. None of us have Tiger's feel, obviously, but the same concept applies. We all know what a good shot is for our game. If a good swing doesn't produce a good shot, the club isn't going to work without compensations. I've seen many buddies ruin their swings over the years trying to make ill-fit clubs work for them. Not worth it.

 

If someone is changing something in the club by 30g, I'd say first impression is even more important. There should be a reason for that dramatic of a change and if that fits the player, there should be an immediate change in positive outcome.

 

Again, disagree.  To judge something after 2-3 swings is beyond moronic, more so if it is a vast change from what you have previously.

 

Ability when at the higher cap range means more than top end, sure, but higher caps are higher caps for a reason, so to go off of a few swings is silly as they are higher caps for a reason, they can't tell what the club is doing, let alone try and control it.

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9 hours ago, jomatty said:

Struggled yes, but had their shot shape change completely, I doubt it.  Also if there is a contractual inability to make a change it is slightly different (ala Sergio).  So it is true that there are exceptions to the point I was making, but I still think it is mostly valid.

 

At the top end, a 2-3y draw becoming a 3-5y is basically completely changing their shot shape.  No different the other way as they play the game in inches, we don't.  How was Rory's switch?  Rose to Honma?

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Edel 4-P w/ Paderson TS-I S

Edel 50/54/58 w/ Paderson TS-W S

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I have to say I'm in the camp that says something is wrong. You shouldn't need to give these new irons time. From the OP it appears he has played multiple rounds with them and is still struggling. I used to ho lots of different clubs from SGI irons with lightweight regular shafts to blades with DG S300 and never had an 'adjustment' period with any of them. Ok they feel a bit different but you put a good swing on the clubs and you get a good result. If I was heading out for my first round with newly "fitted" irons and was struggling as much as the OP I'd be pretty disappointed. I'd expect to hit them great from the first swing. Let's not forget you're supposed to get a 'honeymoon' period with new clubs not an 'adjustment' period. LOL

 

Just my 2 cents. 

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I would get rid of them. I was fitted one time for irons, and it was a colossal failure. I played titleist 704cb for many years, then kind of stopped playing. Started again and went thru 4 sets before I found ones I like. I played titleist DTR for many years before I got the 704cb. Both were bought off the rack, the DTR’s were actually bought right at Acushunet company in Mass. I was fitted for mizuno  HMP 919’s. The shaft was a KBS tour 120. I honestly think the shaft was to much for me.

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