Butt-end Soft/Tip Stiff Iron Shafts

[bnperrone]

I prefer that type of profile in woods and I settled on C-Taper Lites. PX LZ is my #2.

 

If I'm not mistaken, I think the MMT fits that profile, at least in the TX flexes for the 105 and 125 weight series.

[Golfrnut]

34 minutes ago, BirdieBob said:

 

 

Here is the graph for the Modus 120 from Nippon's website:

This appears to be an EI graph, which I prefer due to the type of measurement methodology used.

 

Correct that the graphs by themselves only provide what the profile look like and this makes it more difficult to compare shafts, but this data is available for each shaft flex included for these graphs and makes comparison a numbers game.

 

The Nippon graph is very similar to Russ's EI for this graph, which is posted also with the EI Area data.

The EI area data are the best way to discern differences in shaft stiffness of similar profiles.

 

For instance, the Modus 120X has a EI Area of 18.

 

 

 

 

Now we move to the Project X LS graphic, which also shows the EI Area.

Somewhat similar profile to the Modus 120 shown above.

Notice the LS 6.5 EI Area is 20.

 

This shaft is 125g while the Modus is 120g and may contribute to the additional stiffness in the 6.5, but the point is this is the best way to compare the stiffness in these EI graphs by looking at the EI Area numbers.

Someone should see a stiffer feel in the PX LS 6.5 vs the Modus 120X even with their similar profiles of stiffening in the tip and softening in the butt.

 

Interesting that the IO with a lighter weight for the 6.5 also shows a EI Area of 20...ie very stiff for the lighter shaft.

 

 

 

 

 

 

All Russ has done is find a cryptic/arbitrary way of trying to chart something he is wanting to explain without listing the actual strain numbers that he has from  the actual shaft tests. Possible reasoning includes but not limited to...
 

1.  He doesn’t want to show actual numbers because he doesn’t want anyone to come along and contest them. He is free to chart plot anything he wants really with no quantified measurements shown. 
2.  Playing nice with the OEMs as to not devalue their higher priced lines in favor of lower priced pines of the same general profile. 
 

FWIW. The CPM charts and the EI profiles show nothing different. They show the exact same thing in terms of overall profile. What Russ’s charts dont show is overall stiffness comparisons as they would lay out on a comparison chart between shaft designs because he plots them all on independent charts without anyone knowing the scaling that could be there between the two. His EL area appears to be nothing more than a butt stiffness measurement of the overall profile just the same as the OEMs used to deliver with some of their charts. In the end, it doesn’t say a whole lot. Again, he ‘could’ show more, but chooses not to possibly for the reasons I posted above or something else. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Golfrnut

[BirdieBob]

5 minutes ago, Golfrnut said:

 

All Russ has done is find a cryptic/arbitrary way of trying to chart something he is wanting to explain without listing the actual strain numbers that he has from  the actual shaft tests. Possible reasoning includes but not limited to...
 

1.  He doesn’t want to show actual numbers because he doesn’t want anyone to come along and contest them. He is free to chart plot anything he wants really with no quantified measurements shown. 
2.  Playing nice with the OEMs as to not devalue their higher priced lines in favor of lower priced pines of the same general profile. 
 

FWIW. The CPM charts and the EI profiles show nothing different. They show the exact same thing in terms of overall profile. What Russ’s charts dont show is overall stiffness comparisons as they would lay out on a comparison chart between shaft designs because he plots them all on independent charts without anyone knowing the scaling that could be there between the two. His EL area appears to be nothing more than a butt stiffness measurement of the overall profile just the same as the OEMs used to deliver with some of their charts. In the end, it doesn’t say a whole lot. Again, he ‘could’ show more, but chooses not to possibly for the reasons I posted above or something else. 

 

Maybe this will help you understand?

 

Understand Golf Shaft Stiffness Ratings | Golf Shaft Reviews 2020

 

 

[Golfrnut]

12 minutes ago, BirdieBob said:

 

Maybe this will help you understand?

 

Understand Golf Shaft Stiffness Ratings | Golf Shaft Reviews 2020

 

 

 

I understand his stuff just fine. 
 

“The recent reviews presented here at Golf Shaft Reviews, give a stiffness index for each shaft measured.

One of my friends, a fellow fitter who has been working with EI graphs since the very first day I began measuring them asked why I would reduce the elegance of the EI profiles to a single number. My answer, if you are going to use a number to try to understand shaft stiffness, be it LARSX or 4.0, 5.0, 6.0 7.0. area under the EI curve is a better number. It indicates all of the shaft, not just a single point. Is it the best way we now have available? No. Knowing the shape of the EI curve and its relationship to other shafts is the best way we now have available. But without knowing and studying the EI profiles of the 3000 shafts I have already measured, it is better than the alternatives, And given that the measurements were all taken the same way with the same instrument, it transcends manufactures, models and weights.“

 

Simplified. Butt stiffness.  Same as a deflection board, using butt CPM stiffness, etc. Exactly what I already stated above In the previous post. Russ doesn’t give it an actual measurement, he just uses his own proprietary system that he created in his head. Nothing but a representation of the shaft as a whole. No CPM measurement to use to compare, no strain gauge numbers, nada. Again, super simplified and doesn’t say much. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Golfrnut

[deep18]

Said a bunch already but Modus 120.  

[BirdieBob]

I'll drop this here for those that want more info on the EI method:

 

 

 

[autronicdsm]

Shimada K's 8001 have a soft butt/stiff tip. Weighs 106g

[Stuart_G]

On 1/16/2021 at 9:13 AM, BirdieBob said:

Correct that the graphs by themselves only provide what the profile look like and this makes it more difficult to compare shafts, but this data is available for each shaft flex included for these graphs and makes comparison a numbers game.

 

Yes.  And more importantly a numbers game where you don't have access to all the numbers you need.

 

Quote

 

The EI area data are the best way to discern differences in shaft stiffness of similar profiles.

 

 

The best way will always be to plot the shafts together on the same graph.  EI area is a distant, extremely limited, and error prone alternative.  Particularly when one is (such as the op) is interested in the characteristic of a certain part of the shaft.

 

It's really just a representation of the total deflection for a given load.  It doesn't say anything about where along the length that deflection is happening.

 

Don't get me wrong.  I think IE graphs are great.  It's just the way Russ presents the data that's really not very good and limits it's usefulness.

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by Stuart_G

[BirdieBob]

4 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Yes.  And more importantly a numbers game where you don't have access to all the numbers you need.

 

 

The best way will always be to plot the shafts together on the same graph.  EI area is a distant, extremely limited, and error prone alternative.

 

 

 

 

Some companies do plot them together and you are correct it makes it more easy to see the differences.

I appreciate the fact that major companies like MCA, Nippon, Fujikura use the EI curves to define their shafts!

 

 

[dmeeksDC]

On 1/13/2021 at 4:55 PM, Golfrnut said:

Screenshot is shaft profiles of DG and Nippon lines.

 

DG are your stiffest in the lower half of the mid/tip section that the Nippon line.  They also carry with them a stiffer butt section too.  Pick your poison, but there is some relationship to what you are playing currently vs some of what's out there.

So I have a question: Why does everyone rave about the Modus 120 S when CPM testing shows the bend profile and stiffness is a lot like the Dynamic Gold R300, only the R300 is actually considerably stiffer in the tip? Is it just because players would rather say they play a stiff shaft instead of a regular? We don’t see golfwrxers fawning over the R300. 

 

The two shafts track as very similar stiffness until the tip, and the difference there will be far more noticeable to a player than the 1 or 2 differences in CPM starting at the butt and through the midsection. The readings are nearly the same. Am I reading this chart incorrectly or is the R300 the more tip stable of these two?

[mcounci2]

13 minutes ago, dmeeksDC said:

So I have a question: Why does everyone rave about the Modus 120 S when CPM testing shows the bend profile and stiffness is a lot like the Dynamic Gold R300, only the R300 is actually considerably stiffer in the tip? Is it just because players would rather say they play a stiff shaft instead of a regular? We don’t see golfwrxers fawning over the R300. 

 

The two shafts track as very similar stiffness until the tip, and the difference there will be far more noticeable to a player than the 1 or 2 differences in CPM starting at the butt and through the midsection. The readings are nearly the same. Am I reading this chart incorrectly or is the R300 the more tip stable of these two?

 

It's a 130g steel shaft.  I would think the amount of people who are looking for something that CPM's like an R300, that's as heavy as an R300, is quite low.

[Awainer1]

DG x7 is as stiff a tip as it gets 

[Stuart_G]

40 minutes ago, dmeeksDC said:

Is it just because players would rather say they play a stiff shaft instead of a regular? We don’t see golfwrxers fawning over the R300. 

 

It's more likely they just never considered trying or testing an "r-flex" shaft. 

 

But the 15 gm weight difference is pretty significant and more important for most than the profile differences.   Someone who finds themselves fitting into a 115 gm shaft wouldn't even bother trying a 130 gm shaft.

 

 

44 minutes ago, dmeeksDC said:

The two shafts track as very similar stiffness until the tip, and the difference there will be far more noticeable to a player than the 1 or 2 differences in CPM starting at the butt and through the midsection.

 

Not as different as you'd think.  Yes the 40 cpm difference at the tip would likely be noticeable - but only barely.   The relationship between cpm differences and feel changes is not linear.   The closer you get to the tip, the bigger the cpm diffence has to be to result in a noticeable change to the stiffness feel.    So when it comes to the influence on feel, a 40 cpm difference at the very tip equates to only about 5 cpm at the butt end.

 

40 minutes ago, dmeeksDC said:

Am I reading this chart incorrectly or is the R300 the more tip stable of these two?

 

It's slightly stiffer in the tip.   But don't confuse stiffness with stability.   "stability" tends to be a more subjective judgement of the feel relative to the players expectations.  It doesn't have any direct objective influence on the consistency of the physics of the shaft loading/unloading.

[dmeeksDC]

1 minute ago, Stuart_G said:

 

It's more likely they just never considered trying or testing an "r-flex" shaft. 

 

But the 15 gm weight difference is pretty significant and more important for most than the profile differences.   Someone who finds themselves fitting into a 115 gm shaft wouldn't even bother trying a 130 gm shaft.

 

 

 

Not as different as you'd think.  Yes the 40 cpm difference at the tip would likely be noticeable - but only barely.   The relationship between cpm differences and feel changes is not linear.   The closer you get to the tip, the bigger the cpm diffence has to be to result in a noticeable change to the stiffness feel.    So when it comes to the influence on feel, a 40 cpm difference at the very tip equates to only about 5 cpm at the butt end.

 

 

It's slightly stiffer in the tip.   But don't confuse stiffness with stability.   "stability" tends to be a more subjective judgement of the feel relative to the players expectations.  It doesn't have any direct objective influence on the consistency of the physics of the shaft loading/unloading.

I’m not sure I can decipher that last sentence!

 

I get that it’s all subjective but subjective is really what shafts (and golfwrx in general) is all about. The DG feels stiffer and more stable to me. But that could be the weight plus the stiffness difference. Even if the CPM difference is less of a factor due to it being at the tip, the weight is a major difference.
 

Just another lesson than S vs R labels don’t mean anything. 

[Stuart_G]

18 minutes ago, dmeeksDC said:

I’m not sure I can decipher that last sentence!

 

Many think of a shaft that's more "stable" as one that behaves better or more consistently during the swing.  That's not really the reality or true source of the improved performance.

 

18 minutes ago, dmeeksDC said:

I get that it’s all subjective but subjective is really what shafts (and golfwrx in general) is all about. 

 

I agree - but then it kind of makes it a moot point to ask anyone else if it's more stable when it's only your own judgement that matters.

 

18 minutes ago, dmeeksDC said:

 

The DG feels stiffer and more stable to me. But that could be the weight plus the stiffness difference. Even if the CPM difference is less of a factor due to it being at the tip, the weight is a major difference.

 

Not saying you need to, but if you really wanted to pin down weight vs stiffness - just test one of the Nippon's with an extra 12 gm of lead tape wrapped around the shaft and compare that to the r300.

 

That's also assuming everything else about the two clubs you used as comparison was the same.  e.g. length, grip and the most commonly overlooked spec in these types of comparisons - swing weight.

 

 

18 minutes ago, dmeeksDC said:

Just another lesson than S vs R labels don’t mean anything. 

 

Yep.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Stuart_G

[hagimihale]

I get along best with whiteboard profiles.  The 'ahina is my favorite shaft ever, and I'm currently gaming a Tensei Pro White 1K.

 

Modus 120 (which many others have mentioned) and X100 follow the same profile of soft butt and stiff tip. X100 has a stiffer mid IMO.  

 

 

 

 

[Cwebb]

Some of the most overlooked options when searching for this profile, are soft-stepped once and twice, for both the DG 'X' and 'S' flex

[rbpwrx]

No one seems to be mentioning the C-Taper. Very stiff tip and mid, with a slight softening at the handle. Essentially linear with a droopier butt. The 130X fits somewhere between an X100 and an X7. My iron shaft of choice, and I also fit into the whiteboard profile.

Edited April 2, 2022 by rbpwrx

[dmeeksDC]

31 minutes ago, rbpwrx said:

No one seems to be mentioning the C-Taper. Very stiff tip and mid, with a significant softening at the handle. Essentially linear with a droopy butt. The 130X fits somewhere between an X100 and an X7. My iron shaft of choice, and I also fit into the whiteboard profile.

Interesting. Learn something new everyday. Had no idea the CTaper is a softer handle shaft. I need to try it in a regular flex. When I briefly played it in stiff in a set of Adams CMBs (remember, it was the stock shaft), it felt stout but I have to say the ball flight was strong and accurate. I liked the performance, just thought it felt stiff. 

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, dmeeksDC said:

Had no idea the CTaper is a softer handle shaft.

 

It's really not.  Those EI charts are useless because you can't get a valid comparison against other shafts.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Stuart_G

[mizunoMP14]

Dynamic gold  fits the soft butt description and the dynamic gold 120/105  is even softer.  

[Mobert19]

On 1/15/2021 at 4:17 AM, beluga99 said:

Makes sense why I enjoyed the Tensei white when hitting the TSi3.  Love the 120s in my irons.

I love the Modus 120 in my irons too. Ironically, was just fit for the Tensei 1K a few weeks ago. It just felt right. This thread confirms that. Pretty neat 

[rbpwrx]

17 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

It's really not.  Those EI charts are useless because you can't get a valid comparison against other shafts.

Fair enough. But read your own chart. The C-Taper is softer at the handle than DG, PX (significantly), Mod3 (slightly). The only one softer at the handle of those five is the Tour, and that's softer everywhere.

Now I am not saying the C-Taper FEELS soft. It is a firm, firm shaft. BUT. The give, what little there is, at least in the 130X I play, is right at the grip end. Where I want it, and where the OP was looking for it.

FWIW, your chart very much agrees with my hands.

BTW, note that the PX and CT are virtually identical *except* for at the handle. Where the CT significantly tapers (natch) off. Perfect for me, and maybe other folks out there, who love the stability of the PX, but find the grip end just a bit too boardy.

Interesting to read that PX is actually just the original Precision Rifle (an old favorite), but tipped TWO INCHES. Anyone know if this is true? Certainly makes sense feel-wise, and also indicates that if you want something between the two, hard-step a PR or soft-step a PX...

Edited March 31, 2022 by rbpwrx

[rbpwrx]

20 hours ago, dmeeksDC said:

When I briefly played it in stiff in a set of Adams CMBs (remember, it was the stock shaft), it felt stout but I have to say the ball flight was strong and accurate. I liked the performance, just thought it felt stiff. 

When I first tried C-Taper, I thought it was CRAZY stiff. Traj was super low, and distance was way off. I rejected it out of hand.

But, months and years later, playing progressively stiffer shafts, learning how to load properly etc, I came back around to the CT and found it perfect for me.

I keep trying other sticks, periodically, but nothing feels better, or flies straighter, for me.

Only downside is sometimes getting a jumper. There is something active about the shaft that will sometimes slingshot one on you. More neutral shafts, like Nippon 1150GH or X7 will not do that as much.

But they are less fun to play. I'll trade the feel I like and feedback I need for (very) occasionally being over the green.

[Stuart_G]

24 minutes ago, rbpwrx said:

Fair enough. But read your own chart. The C-Taper is softer at the handle than DG, PX (significantly), Mod3 (slightly). The only one softer at the handle of those five is the Tour, and that's softer everywhere.

 

 

I don't think you're reading the chart correctly.  The top column is distance from the tip where the frequency is measured.  So the butt frequencies are the ones on the left of the chart.  It's flipped from the EI charts that you're used to.   That means the data shows that the only shaft stiffer in the butt end than the c-taper is the PX.

 

24 minutes ago, rbpwrx said:

BTW, note that the PX and CT are virtually identical *except* for at the handle. Where the CT significantly tapers (natch) off.

 

As I mentioned above it's the tip that's only slightly different, not the butt.   Although 30 cpm's at the 11" mark is actually quite small of a difference in feel.  Most wouldn't even notice it.   The further from the butt end (smaller the distance from the tip) the more of a cpm change you need for the difference to be noticeable.  While 4-5 cpm might be noticeable at the 36" mark.

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Stuart_G

[bmrowe]

I'm a big fan of this bend profile. Long time user of Modus 120, and now KBS $ taper.

[NRJyzr]

20 hours ago, rbpwrx said:

When I first tried C-Taper, I thought it was CRAZY stiff. Traj was super low, and distance was way off. I rejected it out of hand.

But, months and years later, playing progressively stiffer shafts, learning how to load properly etc, I came back around to the CT and found it perfect for me.

I keep trying other sticks, periodically, but nothing feels better, or flies straighter, for me.

Only downside is sometimes getting a jumper. There is something active about the shaft that will sometimes slingshot one on you. More neutral shafts, like Nippon 1150GH or X7 will not do that as much.

But they are less fun to play. I'll trade the feel I like and feedback I need for (very) occasionally being over the green.

 

There's another downside to C Taper...  tip bending.

 

[Stuart_G]

20 hours ago, rbpwrx said:

Only downside is sometimes getting a jumper. There is something active about the shaft that will sometimes slingshot one on you. More neutral shafts, like Nippon 1150GH or X7 will not do that as much.

 

There is no magic power source in the shaft.  The only thing that can come out of it is based entirely on what your swing puts into it.   If the shaft really is to blame (possible - but questionable) it's because some feedback (feel) it's giving you is causing your swing to change to produce that jumper.   So that's really a characteristic of the fit, not a characteristic of the shaft.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Stuart_G

[rbpwrx]

On 4/1/2022 at 10:49 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

There is no magic power source in the shaft.  The only thing that can come out of it is based entirely on what your swing puts into it.   If the shaft really is to blame (possible - but questionable) it's because some feedback (feel) it's giving you is causing your swing to change to produce that jumper.   So that's really a characteristic of the fit, not a characteristic of the shaft.

 

I really am grateful for posts like this, because they remind me of how other people feel when they are being "mansplained "to.

 

Of course you are right that it's a change in the swing that activates the "magic power source" that absolutely DOES exist in every shaft. (Which is called the bend point, which is where you load it. And sometimes you load it more efficiently than others.)

 

And when I accidentally really load the handle on my beloved C-Tapers, I definitely see a jumper. And that is the dark alchemy of the combination of the swing PLUS the shaft.

 

I would agree with your point if we were swinging baseball bats. But we are emphatically not. Every shaft has  ways that it can "resonate" with the swing being put on it, and amplify natural tendencies, or work to neutralize them.

 

So I agree that the "input" is the swing. But the shaft is the "transducer" of that input, that sometimes unexpectedly multiplies the energy of that swing being transmitted to the ball.

 

Eg. I normally hit my six iron about 190, but caught one 230 on Trackman the other day (NOT my C-taper) - just a combination of how my swing loaded the shaft, and the natural loading zone of that particular shaft, which happened to be a little tip soft (I believe it was a PX 6.0 that I was hitting because  I was curious about the lovely Ricky Fowler copper heads on it).

 

Talk about a jumper!  Definitely a result of the shaft flexing and unloading. My swing was not inherently 40 yards longer on that shot.

 

YMMV. Splain away!

[rbpwrx]

On 4/1/2022 at 10:41 AM, NRJyzr said:

 

There's another downside to C Taper...  tip bending.

 

THAT is true, and the only reason I am looking for a similar-feeling alternative 😞