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Is anyone NOT impressed with the Apex 21's (irons)?


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58 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The design thoughts behind higher CGs is the following (I think - just my opinion, no inside info). Most OEMs want to maximize MOI and lower loft because that will produce a longer club no matter where you hit it on the face.  They also tend to build wider soles and more bounce into the clubs because most folks in this country play on thick, lush turf where forgiveness to hitting fat is important.

 

Maxxing MOI, however, has consequences.  Moving mass to the periphery of a clubhead raises the CG.  A higher CG clubhead is harder to get decent launch on firmer turf because the clubhead CG is near or even above the mid-point of the ball.

 

So, to me, it comes down to where you play and what kind of player you are.  If you have very high swing speed, the higher CG helps to keep balls from ballooning.  If you primarily play on thick lush turf and need help, the MOI benefits could outweigh the slightly lower launch if it happens at all (hitting slightly fat with wide soles and lots of bounce would still drive the CG below the ball's mid-point).

This adds a whole new dimension to picking irons for me, wow. I play mostly on firm, sometimes even thin turf, so a lower COG should be good for me, right? what irons should I be looking at, and what should I avoid? which measurement should I be looking at on the Maltby chart?

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3 minutes ago, ShAMbotay said:

This adds a whole new dimension to picking irons for me, wow. I play mostly on firm, sometimes even thin turf, so a lower COG should be good for me, right? what irons should I be looking at, and what should I avoid? which measurement should I be looking at on the Maltby chart?

Lower CG should help you launch shots a bit higher.  If that is an area where you struggle, then lower CGs will help.  I pay attention to 4 parameters with iron design.  Three of these parameters are available in the Maltby measurements (actual VCOG, C dimension, MOI).  The fourth is bounce which you have to ask around to get (post a question on WRX in Club Tech forum or OEM community forum).

 

VCOG is vertical CG and I prefer something between 0.725" and 0.825" (0.84" is mid-point on a golf ball).  The C dimension is the distance from the hosel to the horizontal CG (this is forgiveness relative to shanks - for me anything less than 1.2" is getting too close for comfort).  MOI is moment of inertia which is forgiveness relative to off center strikes.

 

My priority is always CG then C dimension then bounce then MOI.  Others might re-arrange that order.  It is somewhat personal preference and where you need help in your game.

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11 hours ago, ShAMbotay said:

I have not, but I assume that the CG has to be low to accommodate the low lofts and still be playable.

 

 

Most folks assume this because the various OEMs use that phrasing in their marketing.  The actual physical measurements of the clubheads show it's almost 100% not true.  CGs have gotten higher, though there are exceptions.  Interestingly, those exceptions are merely the newer designs having a CG that's similar to older clubs, not actually lower.

 

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Driver: TM 300 Mini 11.5*, 43.5", Phenom NL 60X -or- Cobra SpeedZone, ProtoPype 80S, 43.5"

Fwy woods: King LTD 3/4, Rogue Black 75X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour 3w, NV105 X -or- TEE E8 Beta 12*, Rogue Silver 70X
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8 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Lower CG should help you launch shots a bit higher.  If that is an area where you struggle, then lower CGs will help.  I pay attention to 4 parameters with iron design.  Three of these parameters are available in the Maltby measurements (actual VCOG, C dimension, MOI).  The fourth is bounce which you have to ask around to get (post a question on WRX in Club Tech forum or OEM community forum).

 

VCOG is vertical CG and I prefer something between 0.725" and 0.825" (0.84" is mid-point on a golf ball).  The C dimension is the distance from the hosel to the horizontal CG (this is forgiveness relative to shanks - for me anything less than 1.2" is getting too close for comfort).  MOI is moment of inertia which is forgiveness relative to off center strikes.

 

My priority is always CG then C dimension then bounce then MOI.  Others might re-arrange that order.  It is somewhat personal preference and where you need help in your game.

So can you get a little cleared on the “C” part of this discussion?  What does the 1.2 represent? Distance from the hosel to the horizontal of gravity in inches?

 

thanks for the education.  I am a shanker so this is important to me. 

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14 minutes ago, Micrys2 said:

So can you get a little cleared on the “C” part of this discussion?  What does the 1.2 represent? Distance from the hosel to the horizontal of gravity in inches?

 

thanks for the education.  I am a shanker so this is important to me. 

C dimension is distance from the hosel to the horizontal CG.  My criteria is 1.2 inches or more, but if it is a concern then going with 1.3" or 1.4" will be more forgiving.  There is no good reason for any iron these days to have a C dimension less than 1.2".

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Kevin Na loves them.

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1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Na probably likes his irons, but loves his putter.

You are correct since he is playing Apex 16 irons.

Once he plays the 21's, he will be in love again.

 

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On 1/17/2021 at 6:42 PM, ThinkingPlus said:

C dimension is distance from the hosel to the horizontal CG.  My criteria is 1.2 inches or more, but if it is a concern then going with 1.3" or 1.4" will be more forgiving.  There is no good reason for any iron these days to have a C dimension less than 1.2".

 

Damn, I just saw where the C dimension is 1.1 on my V6's.

 

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14 minutes ago, braincramp52 said:

 

Damn, I just saw where the C dimension is 1.1 on my V6's.

Was going to reference the V6 metrics in your Classic thread.  However, thought the better of it and refrained.   With a C-Dim = 1.108, MOI = 11.85, AVCOG = .877 (center of ball = .840), an iron head design that is more demanding of consistency in ball striking to realize/recapture acceptable distance.  Compared to "others".  With the COG located close(r) to the hosel, and marginal "forgiveness" assistance when you miss.  

 

More than willing to sacrifice head compactness to minimize the potential for shanking while trying to find the sweet spot (COG).  

 

Take Maltby metrics with however many grains of salt one chooses.  Seems to have a measure of controversy surrounding it.  (Ignore the MPF score.)  But I find merit in the numbers for comparing and assessing designs that are compatible to my game.  And surprised how favorably older designs holdup against modernity.   While noting the one major factor not incorporated in the stats.  The importance of suitable shafts.  

 

FWIW.  The "new" Cally Apex Pro 21 irons look more than similar to the Maltby TS-1's.  That have been around for a couple of years now.  Coincidence?  Maybe, maybe not.  

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1 hour ago, Fellaheen51 said:

Was going to reference the V6 metrics in your Classic thread.  However, thought the better of it and refrained.   With a C-Dim = 1.108, MOI = 11.85, AVCOG = .877 (center of ball = .840), an iron head design that is more demanding of consistency in ball striking to realize/recapture acceptable distance.  Compared to "others".  With the COG located close(r) to the hosel, and marginal "forgiveness" assistance when you miss.  

 

More than willing to sacrifice head compactness to minimize the potential for shanking while trying to find the sweet spot (COG).  

 

Take Maltby metrics with however many grains of salt one chooses.  Seems to have a measure of controversy surrounding it.  (Ignore the MPF score.)  But I find merit in the numbers for comparing and assessing designs that are compatible to my game.  And surprised how favorably older designs holdup against modernity.   While noting the one major factor not incorporated in the stats.  The importance of suitable shafts.  

 

FWIW.  The "new" Cally Apex Pro 21 irons look more than similar to the Maltby TS-1's.  That have been around for a couple of years now.  Coincidence?  Maybe, maybe not.  

I'm not a numbers or stats guy at all but I feel the V6's are a very forgiving iron for a small profile. Oh well, maybe I'm just used to them.

 

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2 hours ago, braincramp52 said:

 

Damn, I just saw where the C dimension is 1.1 on my V6's.

 

One issue with using the raw C Dimension is that clubhead length is variable, and not included in the numbers.  A 1.2" C-Dim on a 3.25" long clubhead may be relatively closer to the hosel than a 1.1" C-Dim on a 2.75" long clubhead.  

 

It adds to the fun.  🙂

 

Edited by NRJyzr
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Driver: TM 300 Mini 11.5*, 43.5", Phenom NL 60X -or- Cobra SpeedZone, ProtoPype 80S, 43.5"

Fwy woods: King LTD 3/4, Rogue Black 75X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour 3w, NV105 X -or- TEE E8 Beta 12*, Rogue Silver 70X
Hybrid:  Cobra King Tec 2h, MMT 80 S -or- TEE CBX 17*, HZRDUS 85 6.0

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I think the Apex 21 and the APEX DCB21 are going to be great. The Pro's look ugly as sin. 

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11 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

One issue with using the raw C Dimension is that clubhead length is variable, and not included in the numbers.  A 1.2" C-Dim on a 3.25" long clubhead may be relatively closer to the hosel than a 1.1" C-Dim on a 2.75" long clubhead.  

 

It adds to the fun.  🙂

 

How does the length of the blade matter?  C dimension is measured from the hosel.  It is interpreted as forgiveness relative to shanking.  It isn't how centered the horizontal CG is in the clubhead.

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2 hours ago, braincramp52 said:

 

Damn, I just saw where the C dimension is 1.1 on my V6's.


I wouldn’t get hung up on this stuff. A lot of discussion being thrown around that is correct but also is one side of the picture that will not matter to better players. V6 is a great iron. A few thoughts:

 

— The higher C dimension number may mean the club has a more centered COG or it could just mean it is a larger clubhead, which creates other issues I don’t want. If I see a C dimension measurement of 1.4 or higher, I know I will not like that iron. Will often be a hockey stick in blade length. I tend to like irons with a C dimension in the 1.1 to 1.2 range because those tend to be compact. Again, just a general trend. All depends on what you like to look down at. 


— A lower C dimension to me means the COG is closer to the hosel and the club is more workable. Might be harder to hit for those who don’t like compact heads. What I like about the V6 is it is easy to fade or draw. 
 

— The plethora of lower lofts these days is because OEMs are accommodating a common swing flaw: Most amateurs flip at impact and add loft, as opposed to pros who have shaft lean at impact and reduce loft by 25 percent or more. The OEMs want players to like the clubs they buy and feel like they work well because most players never actually improve their fundamentals, they just make it work. IMO, better to work on proper release and shaft lean to get real power vs flipping and using lower lofts to gain back some of the distance those players lose. But still no comparison in power. A 34 degree 7 iron struck properly is going way longer and more penetrating than a 32 degree 7 iron with a flip swing.
 

— High bounce and wider soles are more popular because most amateurs don’t really shift much weight in the proper sequence. They play golf behind or at the ball and bottom out their swings 2 inches or more behind the pros, who play golf in front of the ball, toward the target, with the club speeding up at impact. A flip swing is a club released early and slowing down at impact. 
 

— Higher vertical COG is what I prefer in scoring irons. If you’re hitting down on the ball with a scoring iron with super low COG, can get some balloon balls. I only want low COG in irons I am sweeping, like a 4 iron. 
 

Some of the irons that have performed the best for me — and been the most precise in accuracy — have low MPF scores. Vapor Pro Combos, Hogan Ft Worth, V6, Callaway Apex MB. Depends very much on the individual. 

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4 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

How does the length of the blade matter?  C dimension is measured from the hosel.  It is interpreted as forgiveness relative to shanking.  It isn't how centered the horizontal CG is in the clubhead.

 

I was thinking in terms of "center of the clubface" when typing that, as opposed to pure distance from the hosel. 

 

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Driver: TM 300 Mini 11.5*, 43.5", Phenom NL 60X -or- Cobra SpeedZone, ProtoPype 80S, 43.5"

Fwy woods: King LTD 3/4, Rogue Black 75X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour 3w, NV105 X -or- TEE E8 Beta 12*, Rogue Silver 70X
Hybrid:  Cobra King Tec 2h, MMT 80 S -or- TEE CBX 17*, HZRDUS 85 6.0

2 iron:  Arias D-23, Modus3 120 S; Mizuno MP-20 HMB, NS Pro 950 R

Irons grab bag:  1-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 1-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R; 2-PW Golden Ram Vibration Matched, NS Pro 950WF S; testing: Arias D-23 5i w/Modus 120 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or- Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Cobra Snakebite 56* -or- Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S -or- Ram TW282 SW -or- Ram TW276 SW
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46 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I was thinking in terms of "center of the clubface" when typing that, as opposed to pure distance from the hosel. 

 

Understand.  Easy to do.  There really is very little downside to a larger C dimension.  Having the CG closer to the hosel does make it a little easier to draw the ball (harder to fade the ball).  That is a choice that I would never trade for margin relative to the hosel.

 

Small C dimensions are most often seen on blades.  Today, this is purely tradition since there are no longer constraints preventing a better positioning of the horizontal CG.  Back before the invention of high strength epoxies, hosels needed to be longer to provide sufficient surface area to prevent clubheads flying off with the weaker adhesives.  The consequence was a smaller C dimension and somewhat higher VCOG, trademarks of a player's blade, but generally bad from a playability standpoint.  Higher CGs can benefit high swing speed players, but a small C dimension really benefits no one.

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No interest. Too much offset.

 

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On 1/17/2021 at 8:02 AM, ThinkingPlus said:

Lower CG should help you launch shots a bit higher.  If that is an area where you struggle, then lower CGs will help.  I pay attention to 4 parameters with iron design.  Three of these parameters are available in the Maltby measurements (actual VCOG, C dimension, MOI).  The fourth is bounce which you have to ask around to get (post a question on WRX in Club Tech forum or OEM community forum).

 

VCOG is vertical CG and I prefer something between 0.725" and 0.825" (0.84" is mid-point on a golf ball).  The C dimension is the distance from the hosel to the horizontal CG (this is forgiveness relative to shanks - for me anything less than 1.2" is getting too close for comfort).  MOI is moment of inertia which is forgiveness relative to off center strikes.

 

My priority is always CG then C dimension then bounce then MOI.  Others might re-arrange that order.  It is somewhat personal preference and where you need help in your game.

 

@ThinkingPlus, that was one of the most interesting posts I have seen in a long time.  Thanks!

 

I also found this theory of clubs are made for lush conditions a bit interesting.  Being in CA where it never rains, I was wondering where are all these lush conditions?!  Even Olympic and SF club have lost a bit of their lushness these days.

 

I wonder though, these specs you look for in an iron head, they do not get severely impacted by the shaft?  Or do you think once you find a shaft that works for you, stick with it no matter which iron you play?

 

 

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7 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Understand.  Easy to do.  There really is very little downside to a larger C dimension.  Having the CG closer to the hosel does make it a little easier to draw the ball (harder to fade the ball).  That is a choice that I would never trade for margin relative to the hosel.

 

Small C dimensions are most often seen on blades.  Today, this is purely tradition since there are no longer constraints preventing a better positioning of the horizontal CG.  Back before the invention of high strength epoxies, hosels needed to be longer to provide sufficient surface area to prevent clubheads flying off with the weaker adhesives.  The consequence was a smaller C dimension and somewhat higher VCOG, trademarks of a player's blade, but generally bad from a playability standpoint.  Higher CGs can benefit high swing speed players, but a small C dimension really benefits no one.

Don't players with a flatter swing benefit from a smaller C dimension?

 

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From what I've read, and this may all be hype, but it sounds like the Apex standard may be a touch more forgiving and with the introduction of the DCB line, the combination of slightly more forgiving scoring irons with much more forgiving long irons is a match made in heaven.  At least for me, anyway.  The only question now is, do I go with my standard specs (been fit 3 times) or is it worth it to go to Club Champion and take advantage of the 1/2 price fitting through the end of January?

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3 hours ago, CasualLie said:

 

@ThinkingPlus, that was one of the most interesting posts I have seen in a long time.  Thanks!

 

I also found this theory of clubs are made for lush conditions a bit interesting.  Being in CA where it never rains, I was wondering where are all these lush conditions?!  Even Olympic and SF club have lost a bit of their lushness these days.

 

I wonder though, these specs you look for in an iron head, they do not get severely impacted by the shaft?  Or do you think once you find a shaft that works for you, stick with it no matter which iron you play?

 

 

You need to look at your conditions, swing, and speed to dial in launch/spin for a given head/shaft combo. More or less same as always, but knowing that high CG + hard pan is a tough combo to deal with or low CG + high swingspeed will generate ballooning shots etc. helps narrow down what heads/shafts will work best for you.

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1 hour ago, braincramp52 said:

Don't players with a flatter swing benefit from a smaller C dimension?

Why?  Easier to close the face?  That's at best a bandaid and should really be fixed with proper swing changes.  Flatter swings would seem to be more prone to shanking as well.  Given the, at best, slight help closing the clubface vs. the catastrophic results of a shank, I know what my choice would be.

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On 1/17/2021 at 8:48 AM, bladehunter said:

10000 % correct.   I found the exact same thing with apex snd ping i500 and i210.  500 being the worst in long irons.  
 

and to show your point.  The i500 and apex set I owned , I loved both in a sloppy rain.  More mud the better.  Why ?  The craved that sloppy strike high on the face.  And the mud let the wide sole get down there to it.  Hot garbage for my swing and normal hard playing conditions. 
 

I came to the same conclusion you have. These irons are designed for the person hitting it fat , on lush fairways and rough.  They’ve figured out how to make that strike be the “ flush “ contact zone.  

Triple like, didn’t like the i500, t-mb and i500 for the same reason ... firm and low on face = garbage feel and results

 

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Ping G400 LST 11* Ventus Black TR 5x

Ping G400 3w 15.1* GD AD IZ 5x

Ping G400 7w 19.5* Ventus Red 6x 

Ping G425 4h 22* Blueboard HY 80x

Ping i210 6i & s55 7i - PW Steelfiber 110s

Ping Glide Wrx 49*, 54*, 59*ES, Tour W 64* SF 125s

EvnRoll ER9
 

 

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I have really settled into my Apex 19's. I have a passing thought on ordering a 5 & 6 DCB iron to try instead of the standard 5 & 6.

 

I'm probably the only one who was sad that they didn't make a matching SW for the Apex 21's. I loved mine after I bent it to 53 degrees. I thought the 6 degree gap between the 48 degree AW & 54 degree SW would have been too much & it was....because when I had the SW checked it was 55 degrees, so I was at 7 degree difference. No wonder I kept coming up short on those shots. Bent it to 53 & all is good.

Driver: Callaway Rogue STMaxLS 10.5 Degree

5 Wood: Cobra LTDxLS @ 17.5 Degree

Hybrid: Cobra King OS 3-4 Hybrid @ 20.5 Degree

Hybrid: Cobra Aerojet @ 24 Degree

Irons: Taylormade 2021 P790's 5-AW

Wedge: Taylormade MG3 54 Degree

Wedge: Callaway Sureout 2 @ 60 degree

Putter: PXG Closer

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