Lie Angle v Face Angle

[justcallmemoses]

Wondering which has more impact on ball flight?

 

I have G410 hybrid wondering which is more effective at limiting the left side

 

flat-1

or 

-1.5 

 

are both flattening the lie?

Edited January 14, 2021 by justcallmemoses

[Hack Daddy]

This really deepnds on your angle of attack, and especially how much you turn your hands over. 

 

All things equal, flattening MIGHT help take the left side out... But it really depends on your swing. Anything flat will open the face, though. 

[ChipNRun]

Years ago, I had my first driver fitting and ended up with the Callaway HyperX Tour 10.5* with regular shaft. This was a traditional bonded head (non-adjustable). The face angle was 1 degree open.

 

Prior to the fitting, I was having trouble with too-much left on a driver with a fair abound of offset.

 

This may sound odd, but I played for a slight draw out of a slightly closed stand, and the slightly open face worked wonders.

 

Another thing to consider on "flattening" is shaft length. If your driver shaft is a bit too long with a normal lie angle, you can rock the club back on the heel sometimes and get more left than you want.

 

Best way to start out: have driver set on "Zero-Zero" for loft and take it from there. People sometimes forget, but stance and ball position can have a big impact on ball flight. That's how ball flight got tweaked prior to adjustable clubheads.

[Jwin323]

^^^^^ This does not sound weird. I've been playing an open faced draw for 25 years. The open face just looks right to me.

[greenwavegolfer]

With hybrids/fairways/drivers face angle is much more important than lie angle in dictating horizontal launch and spin-axis. 45° of dynamic loft is the point where lie angle and face angle have equal effect on horizontal launch and spin-axis and anything less than that is going to be more dictated by face angle than lie angle (more extreme the lower the loft gets) and anything higher than that is going to be more affected by lie angle than face angle (i.e. wedges). Think about it with a putter which has like 2-4° of loft. If you change the lie angle by 1° you're barely changing the way the loft is pointed left or right. If you change the face angle by 1° you're changing the way the loft points by nearly the same amount.

 

Now more to the specific quesiton at hand, the -1.5° loft setting is going to open the face angle by ~2.7° (general rule of thumb is ~1.8° face angle change per degree of loft change on most OEM sleeves I believe). The F- setting opens the face angle by 1.8° and flattens the lie angle by I think 3° but I can't really find the exact numbers for the flat settings (Ping just says it's a maximum of 3° flat and I believe that's the F- setting that's the most flat). Now to try to determine which of those "eliminates the left side" the most we're gonna have to make some assumptions. Assuming a 19° head and a completely neutral delivery in a vacuum you've got the 2.7° face angle change with the -1.5 loft setting and then roughly the equivalent of ~2.4° if my math and assumptions are correct from the F- setting. Now the biggest caveat is this changes depending on the loft of the head and your delivered loft as well as how well you control face angle and lie angle. In the end, the best thing you can do is just test a sample of both against each other and see which works better for you in real testing. But based on back-of-napkin math, I would think that the -1.5° loft edges out the -1°/Flat setting in terms of how well it points the loft right in a vacuum. But it's close enough and there's enough outside variables I'm not even sure that means much.

[RobS]

Using a 19* 410 as the example.  Standard O setting has a 58.5 lie angle and 19* of loft. Flat setting has a lie angle of 55.5 and loft of 19*.  F- has a lie angle of 56 and loft of 18.  -1.5 has a lie angle of 57 and loft of 17.5.  The minus loft settings will open the face slightly at address.  Assuming you deliver the club back to square at impact, the flattest lie angle gives you the most left protection.  With that being said, Big -, F and F- all give you  left side protection and the choice you make out of those 3 will likely come down to what gives you the best launch and spin conditions.  I play a 19* 410 in the 19* flat setting.  For me personally, the 19* flat rarely goes left.  I can hit a draw but it starts right and barely gets back to center and I can hit a fade that has almost no chance of going left. The flat setting also looks the best to me at address.

[Awainer1]

I’m personally a fan of fitting lie angle for your specs based on wrist to floor.  A flatter lie angle does not always lead to a left to right flight for me since the toe will sometimes grab and cause me to flip.

[Aviador Naval]

26 minutes ago, Awainer1 said:

I’m personally a fan of fitting lie angle for your specs based on wrist to floor.  A flatter lie angle does not always lead to a left to right flight for me since the toe will sometimes grab and cause me to flip.

Why would you fit using a configuration that in no way approximates a golf swing (i.e., erect with straight arms at your side...)?  Given the wide variability in swing dynamics and hand position at both address - and more importantly impact - I’m not even sure that ‘wrist to floor’ could be characterized as a good starting position.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Aviador Naval

[Awainer1]

 

1 hour ago, Aviador Naval said:

Why would you fit using a configuration that in no way approximates a golf swing (i.e., erect with straight arms at your side...)?  Given the wide variability in swing dynamics and hand position at both address - and more importantly impact - I’m not even sure that ‘wrist to floor’ could be characterized as a good starting position.

I think that dynamic fitting is pseudoscience made up by the fitting industry to make people think they can’t fit themselves without a lie board or someone telling them what lie angle they should be in. If your anatomically the same wrist to floor as another person there’s a good chance you will fit to the same specs. 

[Aviador Naval]

Apologize to the OP for the slight detour in the posts above and perhaps with this question...

 

I have followed the logic of the lie/loft and loft/face angle relationships when discussed in the past as it governed by single piece adjustable tips.  Believe I understand it adequately if not completely.

 

Does the reality change with a two piece tip such as those used by Titleist or is theirs merely a different way to get to the same physical position?

[Stuart_G]

11 hours ago, Aviador Naval said:

Does the reality change with a two piece tip such as those used by Titleist or is theirs merely a different way to get to the same physical position?

 

The relationship between loft changes and lie changes can be different.  The multi cog adapters allow for more independent adjustment of loft and lie angle.

 

But there is no difference in the relationship between loft and face angle.  No adapter design can change that.

 

[Aviador Naval]

^^^ Thanks Stuart.