Hogan Swing Puzzle Pieces

[powerfade66]

1 hour ago, LowAndLeft32 said:

Wow!! How did you get to see the unpublished book? 

A PDF has been floating around for years. Someone compiled many of his posts on here among other things. 

[TheDeanAbides]

31 minutes ago, powerfade66 said:

A PDF has been floating around for years. Someone compiled many of his posts on here among other things. 

The final edit and organisation of that was mine. 

[Gsea]

4 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

The final edit and organisation of that was mine. 

Nice job reads very professionally. Just curious has Slicefixer seen it.

[TheDeanAbides]

10 minutes ago, Gsea said:

Nice job reads very professionally. Just curious has Slicefixer seen it.

Yeah, I sent it over all those years back.  Geoff was impressed and grateful, but he was in the process of writing his book so asked me not to release it. 

 

I left golf for about five years through ill health and only found out it was in the public domain a couple of weeks ago. 

Edited February 5, 2021 by TheDeanAbides

[LowAndLeft32]

2 hours ago, powerfade66 said:

A PDF has been floating around for years. Someone compiled many of his posts on here among other things. 

Sorry I am little slow. So this is just a compilation of his post and not his unpublished book? 

[Gsea]

44 minutes ago, LowAndLeft32 said:

Sorry I am little slow. So this is just a compilation of his post and not his unpublished book? 

No not a book by Geoff.  But much more than a compilation, reads like and laid out like a book. You never know it wasn't if you weren't told. I thought it was a a book manuscript when I first saw it. Dean did a unbelievable job imo.  Much of had mucho hrs involved. 

[TheDeanAbides]

4 minutes ago, Gsea said:

No not a book by Geoff.  But much more than a compilation, reads like and laid out like a book. You never know it wasn't if you weren't told. I thought it was a a book manuscript when I first saw it. Dean did a unbelievable job imo.  Much of had mucho hrs involved. 

I can't take all the credit. A lot of the ground work was done by another old member (I can't recall his name), but we got chatting and I agreed to take it on and rewrite/edit it so it read better. He laid a lot of the chapters out, but English wasn't his first language, and Geoff wasn't always the easiest guy to understand in his posts. I just turned it into something that had all of Geoff's ideas and vernacular, but edited for ease of understanding. It was still a few weeks graft. 

[hoganfan924]

12 hours ago, powerfade66 said:

That video has been used in here to advance both sides several times and there’s no clear winner. When I saw the first words of your comment in notification I immediately thought of this video without seeing you had posted it. It’s a classic. Yes it separates but then reconnects through the strike. I don’t think it’s an end in itself as much as a natural byproduct of such a weak grip and no flicking in the release.
 

Watch it again thinking of the right elbow. The left just gets out of the way. Similar to Vijay you can have the right hand working the back side of the grip but not grabbing the club using the whole right hand. Which is what he demonstrated in the Coleman video and discussed in Modern Fundamentals. I have photos where in the finish the club is as far into the webbing of the right thumb and forefinger as it can go. An inch or two from where it started. Peter Thomson said he noticed the club moved around in Hogan’s right hand. 

I think it's an effect of how quickly Hogan whips the left shoulder open.  The left arm has to lag.  I think this is a very underrated/underappreciated and often overlooked aspect of his swing.

[powerfade66]

10 hours ago, hoganfan924 said:

I think it's an effect of how quickly Hogan whips the left shoulder open.  The left arm has to lag.  I think this is a very underrated/underappreciated and often overlooked aspect of his swing.

I agree. But I also think the left side can be overemphasised if you forget the right side is doing a lot to close gaps as well. The left isn’t working in a vacuum. 
 

I haven’t seen your username for years. Felt quite nostalgic to see it again. 

Edited February 6, 2021 by powerfade66

[hoganfan924]

5 hours ago, powerfade66 said:

I agree. But I also think the left side can be overemphasised if you forget the right side is doing a lot to close gaps as well. The left isn’t working in a vacuum. 
 

I haven’t seen your username for years. Felt quite nostalgic to see it again. 

For sure.  The whole right side needs to keep trucking through the downswing, with no intent to slow down, "brake" or stall.  That Hogan video shows that he still has a fully bent right elbow at impact and doesn't straighten it until after, so "3-barrel swinging" IMO per TGM, and good linking/sync of his pivot to right arm. 

 

A demonstration Slicefixer did the first time I visited him was to show how hard he could slap my hand by just tucking in his right elbow to his ribcage and rotating his torso to create speed and thrust.  What he would call a "heavy blow" or as he said in that Gotham Golf Blog webinar, "hitting it with leverage."  Much the same way a boxer might throw a body blow from a clinch. He also would have students feel lag pressure by getting them into impact fix, with a mid iron, and the clubhead restrained by a door jamb or his foot, and tell the student to try and snap the shaft in half.  It's much harder to apply that pressure, the straighter the right arm is. I suppose TGM'rs might do the same to demonstrate lag pressure. 

 

Good to see you still posting.  I don't know how long I'll stick around here, place is as toxic as ever.

[hoganfan924]

22 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I can't take all the credit. A lot of the ground work was done by another old member (I can't recall his name), but we got chatting and I agreed to take it on and rewrite/edit it so it read better. He laid a lot of the chapters out, but English wasn't his first language, and Geoff wasn't always the easiest guy to understand in his posts. I just turned it into something that had all of Geoff's ideas and vernacular, but edited for ease of understanding. It was still a few weeks graft. 

My recollection is that TEConner did the initial compilation

[TheDeanAbides]

3 minutes ago, hoganfan924 said:

My recollection is that TEConner did the initial compilation

Yes, the original, but another member then organised it more effectively and passed that to me. I believe that he was French Canadian. 

[hoganfan924]

1 minute ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Yes, the original, but another member then organised it more effectively and passed that to me. I believe that he was French Canadian. 

Probably RankOutsider, as he was the initial guy that was working with Geoff on a book.

[TheDeanAbides]

Just now, hoganfan924 said:

Probably RankOutsider, as he was the initial guy that was working with Geoff on a book.

No, that's not it. I would recognise the name if I heard it. Pretty sure it began with an 'L'.

[powerfade66]

20 hours ago, hoganfan924 said:

For sure.  The whole right side needs to keep trucking through the downswing, with no intent to slow down, "brake" or stall.  That Hogan video shows that he still has a fully bent right elbow at impact and doesn't straighten it until after, so "3-barrel swinging" IMO per TGM, and good linking/sync of his pivot to right arm. 

 

A demonstration Slicefixer did the first time I visited him was to show how hard he could slap my hand by just tucking in his right elbow to his ribcage and rotating his torso to create speed and thrust.  What he would call a "heavy blow" or as he said in that Gotham Golf Blog webinar, "hitting it with leverage."  Much the same way a boxer might throw a body blow from a clinch. He also would have students feel lag pressure by getting them into impact fix, with a mid iron, and the clubhead restrained by a door jamb or his foot, and tell the student to try and snap the shaft in half.  It's much harder to apply that pressure, the straighter the right arm is. I suppose TGM'rs might do the same to demonstrate lag pressure. 

 

Good to see you still posting.  I don't know how long I'll stick around here, place is as toxic as ever.

Yes a lot of power leveraging off that right hip. I don’t think he held that position.  I think he used the right arm very late, which gives that impression. The chin turned to the right a little as told to Barkow (and can be seen) allowed him to do that without being too steep and having to flip it earlier. The Clem Derracot footage and a few other clips I’ve got where he really goes after it shows a clear effort to really extend that right arm. Think shaft speed as much or more than clubhead speed. 
 

I also disagree with the cutting low left idea. If the club stays low with a lot of extension, and an active right knee to keep the right arm moving, it will always appear low left even if the intention is more of a hold shot somewhat down the line.

 

Because he’s the opposite of someone who drops it inside and holds it off because of their strong grip he is close to an out to out feel. Without actually doing that to any great degree of course. His backswing is so low and deep he can use his active legs to come over it a little to get onto a very low and neutral path early and then because he uses his right side levers so late he keeps it down the line an inch or two longer than those who are standing up and slinging their right arm earlier. As Trevino said, even if it’s just extending your time at ball level and a longer divot by an inch, massive difference to consistency. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by powerfade66

[tthomasgolfer605]

Ben Hogan changed the way he played the game and basically got out of his own way. I'll elaborate if anyone is interested.

[powerfade66]

1 hour ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Ben Hogan changed the way he played the game and basically got out of his own way. I'll elaborate if anyone is interested.

How do we know if we’re interested if you don’t elaborate on what may or may not be interesting? I’m interested in the possibility of being interested. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by powerfade66

[Gsea]

2 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Ben Hogan changed the way he played the game and basically got out of his own way. I'll elaborate if anyone is interested.

I would love to hear your idea in plain english please 🙂

[tthomasgolfer605]

2 hours ago, Gsea said:

I would love to hear your idea in plain english please 🙂

He aimed way right to compensate for his hook with a stronger grip with led to a severely hooded and delofted face through impact resulting in a low left miss.  All he did was reverse his approach which led to the correct loft at impact and a square slightly open face and a much higher ball flight. His hook swing, he stalled his hips because he had no choice . His controlled swing, he could rotate like hell and do what he wanted with the ball. He stated he fixed it in one day. IMHO, I don't think it's as complicated as some make it out to be.

[TheDeanAbides]

7 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

He aimed way right to compensate for his hook with a stronger grip with led to a severely hooded and delofted face through impact resulting in a low left miss.  All he did was reverse his approach which led to the correct loft at impact and a square slightly open face and a much higher ball flight. His hook swing, he stalled his hips because he had no choice . His controlled swing, he could rotate like hell and do what he wanted with the ball. He stated he fixed it in one day. IMHO, I don't think it's as complicated as some make it out to be.

I would LOVE it to be as simple as that. Hogan would be laughing and laughing and laughing at us muppets dissecting every nuance of his swing, his gear, and even his bloody shoes to find his 'secret'. 

[powerfade66]

58 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

He aimed way right to compensate for his hook with a stronger grip with led to a severely hooded and delofted face through impact resulting in a low left miss.  All he did was reverse his approach which led to the correct loft at impact and a square slightly open face and a much higher ball flight. His hook swing, he stalled his hips because he had no choice . His controlled swing, he could rotate like hell and do what he wanted with the ball. He stated he fixed it in one day. IMHO, I don't think it's as complicated as some make it out to be.

That’s it? What you’ve described is the journey of low handicap golfers at nearly every course on the planet through time. Start out with a slice, then battle a hook, then learn to hold it off but still too in to out and prone to overdraws, then move to more of a neutral path and weaker grip.

 

Every great golfer has said it is not even close as to who was the best ballstriker in history. It’s not just about fixing his hook. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

34 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I would LOVE it to be as simple as that. Hogan would be laughing and laughing and laughing at us muppets dissecting every nuance of his swing, his gear, and even his bloody shoes to find his 'secret'. 

He even said himself that he had no room to start his hook on some holes and couldn't get the ball off the ground with a 4 wood. Golf is all about the target line. Relative to the target line his club was way in to out with a shut face. Aim left, weaken the grip a bit to cut hook spin and there you go.

[tthomasgolfer605]

4 minutes ago, powerfade66 said:

That’s it? What you’ve described is the journey of low handicap golfers at nearly every course on the planet through time. Start out with a slice, then battle a hook, then learn to hold it off but still too in to out and prone to overdraws, then move to more of a neutral path and weaker grip.

 

Every great golfer has said it is not even close as to who was the best ballstriker in history. It’s not just about fixing his hook. 

It made him a much better golfer all around because a long left miss is big trouble around the green and you'll run into a lot more trouble on tee shots.  His setup fundamentals were a huge step in the right direction. The rest was between the ears and how he attacked the course. 

[TheDeanAbides]

I have long suspected that the reason his strike sounded different to others was largely down to how he setup his gear rather than his swing. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

Henry Picard giving Ben Hogan a lesson on holding the club correctly.

[tthomasgolfer605]

15 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I have long suspected that the reason his strike sounded different to others was largely down to how he setup his gear rather than his swing. 

Probably both. I believe in having gear set up for the way you want to swing rather than how you're currently swinging. 

[TheDeanAbides]

6 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Probably both. I believe in having gear set up for the way you want to swing rather than how you're currently swinging. 

Yup, absolutely agree with that. Flat lie angles teach you to shallow out properly. 

[LowAndLeft32]

On 2/5/2021 at 4:44 PM, LowAndLeft32 said:

I think the masters trip would be awesome! 

 

5 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Yup, absolutely agree with that. Flat lie angles teach you to shallow out properly. 

Yes I thought flat lie angles could be the answer to help with a rotational swing. But what about the driver and fairway woods these days?? You cant really get these anywhere near as flat as hogans clubs. Best best is the adjusters these days allow 1-3* flatter on a best case. After adjustment these driver are still upright vs 20 years ago lie angles. 

[TheDeanAbides]

5 minutes ago, LowAndLeft32 said:

 

Yes I thought flat lie angles could be the answer to help with a rotational swing. But what about the driver and fairway woods these days?? You cant really get these anywhere near as flat as hogans clubs. Best best is the adjusters these days allow 1-3* flatter on a best case. After adjustment these driver are still upright vs 20 years ago lie angles. 

That's why lots of us still play vintage gear. 

[LowAndLeft32]

2 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

That's why lots of us still play vintage gear. 

What driver and fairways do you play and what are the lie angles? Old irons are easy to find but old metal woods are hard to find and I don’t stack up to today’s equipment?