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Woke up and lost it... Can’t spot the flaws!


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I have been working really hard to keep my slice at bay. I play at around a 11 hdcp and it’s that high because of my ability to keep the ball in play off the tee. For most of the summer/fall was able to find a feel that kept my swing inside to out. But as of today, I’m completely lost as to where I need to make a change and thought I’d come here for help. I’ve attached a video from the range today. 
 

and for reference I’ve attached a video of when I was hitting the ball much higher with a straight/draw ball flight most of the time. Any advice would be really helpful as I’m super lost.

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WillyBman,        I can see that you are desperately trying to pull down inside out out , but their  are two absolutes in a golf swing  that we first have deal with a couple  that are built

The main things going on here are some of the pretty common flaws/faults that you're getting away with (not always it seems) due to being athletic and strong. There are some big reroutes/compensations

As noted  flatten shaft via forearm roll early in takeaway - leads to arms too across body, steep pull down, wipe across ball, etc    Need to keep club head outside hands in takeaway and the

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WillyBman,

 

     I can see that you are desperately trying to pull down inside out out , but their  are two absolutes in a golf swing  that we first have deal with a couple  that are built into our Human structure ( genetics ) . 
   1 - our HANDS * CONTROL * the golf swing , but they have NO power to propel the ball and they MUST drop straight from the top at  the very start of the DS  . Otherwise - they are going to perform as they are Genetically Designed and ROTATE CCW out toward the target line / outside / over the top / causin the head to enter the BACK or OUTSIDE QUADRANT of the ball - as yours obviously did / does ! 
2 - that powerful SCAPULA BONE in your right SHOULDER is performing in the same manner  and what chance do the HANDS and ARMS have BC they  have NO OPTION but to 
go along with their stronger counterparts.  AND we wonder why this golf game is so difficult and WHY 25,000.000 players are suffering from the the exact same problem ! 
    So - to conclude —- at address your RIGHT SHOULDER is ALREADY sticking out toward the target line so how do I solve this issue ? 
Simple answer - I must learn to drop my HANDS / ARMS / SHAFT ( entire lever system ) down back behind my torso from the top and keep my RIGHT SHOULDER *** BACK *** BC - I NOW UNDERSTAND WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF I DONT TRAIN MY *** DOMINANT HANDS to perform this task that is —- TOTALLY FOREIGN AND OPPOSITE MY GENETIC STRUCTURE) . It is a learned conscious task ! You can’t change them . You can ONLY serve them . Knowledge Is the key !
 

 

    

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The main things going on here are some of the pretty common flaws/faults that you're getting away with (not always it seems) due to being athletic and strong. There are some big reroutes/compensations going on that will leave you subject to getting "lost" at times. Fixing those compensations is the key to keeping things on the rails more consistently. 

1850864985_ScreenShot2021-01-15at12_03_16PM.png.0e1325a3e40aa5d0d3536ab214dc8481.png

Everything is pretty solid at at address, but then the first issue comes in Panel 2 with how flat and inside you take the club going back. Compare this position to someone more neutral like Rory...

105822602_ScreenShot2021-01-15at12_35_05PM.png.5fd377be6b0d248b0a08cff6885cd9eb.png

...and you can see that you've gotten pretty far away from a neutral position only 1/4 of the way back. From there in Panel 3 you have continued up very flat, lost most of your shoulder tilt, and are basically in a somewhat stuck position here with your hands really deep. Given how you got to this position, it is virtually impossible to get to the inside of the ball. You also have a very shut clubface which will require a lot of lower body clearing to keep from pull hooking the ball, which you do pretty well, but this flat, stuck position results in your hands coming straight out towards the ball in transition instead of dropping down (red dot shows where your hands go, green dot shows where they would need to go to stay on plane. This is the classic over the top, steep transition move that puts you on the path to be out to in hitting pull cuts and slices. It will also cause a breakdown in your posture and weight transition as you attempt to make room for what is more of a baseball type of swing. This big reroute costs your power and consistency. 

To fix this you really have to go to the source and neutralize your takeaway to get you into a better position at the top, one that you don't have to reroute on the way down. This will likely feel like you're going back very steep, so just keep in mind that what you are used to now is extremely flat/shallow. Since you have access to video, work on getting yourself into that more neutral position 1/4 of the way back like Rory, and keep an eye on maintaining your shoulder tilt in the backswing. It should feel more like your left shoulder is working down under your chin as opposed to up and across it. Those two things should naturally get you into a more neutral position at the top, and from there you may need to visit your grip and face angles. If you choose to stay strong and shut then you may want to consider taking the DJ/Morikawa/Hovland path and favoring a hold off fade. You have the lower body rotation and hip action to make that work, you just need to set it up properly by neutralizing some of these more extreme moves. Good luck, and feel free to follow up!

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As noted  flatten shaft via forearm roll early in takeaway - leads to arms too across body, steep pull down, wipe across ball, etc

 

 Need to keep club head outside hands in takeaway and then stand the club up via completing wrist set.    Arms work up, pivot provides around.

D162471A-C135-4E5D-BCDF-897B7EB031F7.jpeg.af7e5fa943671a2efa53b569f35a09d6.jpeg29D3C02C-94CD-4783-82B7-7F3D13105329.jpeg.99fc0b8182fa70edf6a80fe0b758f4d3.jpeg

 

Somethings to consider

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CArLoP8llFa/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CIqOn9ilTZD/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CIRY1WoliAE/
 

 

 

Edited by glk
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Enjoy every sandwich

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Well — what are the FACTS as to why you have to take the shaft straight back when your goal is to place it back there behind your torso where you intended it to go ? What difference does it make how it gets  there ? 
    If the arms work up wouldn’t that be retard the PIVOT around of the torso ? That never made much sense to my thinking !  Ben Hogan didn’t take his HANDS straight back and neither does Tiger . I would like to hear the FACTS as to why keep the clubhead outside the HANDS going back ? 
    Just asking .

 

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7 hours ago, laneholt said:

Well — what are the FACTS as to why you have to take the shaft straight back when your goal is to place it back there behind your torso where you intended it to go ? What difference does it make how it gets  there ? 
    If the arms work up wouldn’t that be retard the PIVOT around of the torso ? That never made much sense to my thinking !  Ben Hogan didn’t take his HANDS straight back and neither does Tiger . I would like to hear the FACTS as to why keep the clubhead outside the HANDS going back ? 
    Just asking .

 


You don't necessarily *have* to do anything, it all depends on the context. If @WillyBman was able to get to a solid impact position with his hands and body from his very flat and deep position then I would not suggest he change that. But the fact that he is struggling with a slice then it is pretty clear that this position at the top is what is likely causing the problem, and that position is being caused by a very shallow and "inside the hands" takeaway. The inside takeaway isn't a problem in a vacuum, but rather what it leads to. Take JB Holmes for example:

1420754424_ScreenShot2021-01-21at5_42_57PM.png.d06ea42a504ca412ea68fcc731372293.png"

He takes the club back pretty well inside, and would end up in the deep/flat position that Willy is in if he continued on that path, but instead...

1165127846_ScreenShot2021-01-21at5_43_14PM.png.b2ff4449e85166c732158f357cf2ac49.png

...he steepens to a pretty upright position that allows him to easily flatten and shallow again. His sequence then is flat -> steeper -> flat which is a little unorthodox and "Furyk-ish" but it gets him to a great impact position, so changing any one of the components would logically cause some issues. @WillyBman however is not getting to a good impact position, and his sequence is very flat -> very flat -> steeper, the steepening causing the over the top move and subsequent slice issues and inability to work from the inside of the ball. We could easily suggest that Willy try what JB Holmes is doing e.g. heavily steepening in the second half of the backswing, but that seems like a move more specific to people like JB and unless it comes very natural to you would be considered more of a bandaid than an actual fix, which IMO is neutralizing the initial takeaway to then hopefully result in a more neutral position at the top. 

Edited by Valtiel

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22 minutes ago, Valtiel said:


You don't necessarily *have* to do anything, it all depends on the context. If @WillyBman was able to get to a solid impact position with his hands and body from his very flat and deep position then I would not suggest he change that. But the fact that he is struggling with a slice then it is pretty clear that this position at the top is what is likely causing the problem, and that position is being caused by a very shallow and "inside the hands" takeaway. The inside takeaway isn't a problem in a vacuum, but rather what it leads to. Take JB Holmes for example:

1420754424_ScreenShot2021-01-21at5_42_57PM.png.d06ea42a504ca412ea68fcc731372293.png"

He takes the club back pretty well inside, and would end up in the deep/flat position that Willy is in if he continued on that path, but instead...

1165127846_ScreenShot2021-01-21at5_43_14PM.png.b2ff4449e85166c732158f357cf2ac49.png

...he steepens to a pretty upright position that allows him to easily flatten and shallow again. His sequence then is flat -> steeper -> flat which is a little unorthodox and "Furyk-ish" but it gets him to a great impact position, so changing any one of the components would logically cause some issues. @WillyBman however is not getting to a good impact position, and his sequence is very flat -> very flat -> steeper, the steepening causing the over the top move and subsequent slice issues and inability to work from the inside of the ball. We could easily suggest that Willy try what JB Holmes is doing e.g. heavily steepening in the second half of the backswing, but that seems like a move more specific to people like JB and unless it comes very natural to you would be considered more of a bandaid than an actual fix, which IMO is neutralizing the initial takeaway to then hopefully result in a more neutral position at the top. 

As a former baseball player that is definitely why I feel comfortable taking it back so late. And I guess the first flaw I tried to fix was avoiding a chicken wing and an extended lead wrist instead of flat or bowed. So for a temporary fix I ended up working really hard to pin that right elbow in and down and pre-set my wrists on the take away. And luckily I have enough speed to make that work. But of course if I’m not absolutely perfect I break down a ton. So I appreciate all the advice I am definitely going to work on these different feels to become more consistent. 

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44 minutes ago, WillyBman said:

@laneholt @Valtiel @glk I’ll definitely work on this take away and my position at the top. I’ll keep you all posted. I really appreciate the feedback and the help narrowing the flaws down. 

Some others for your consideration

https://www.instagram.com/p/B9uS-bflJJD/
 

 

can also do these as partial swings once you have the general motion.   Imagine you have difficulty hitting partial swings with your current backswing.   Ray Floyd is the all time flatten the shaft player who raises the arms vertical and rotates them to the left (think jb Holmes on steroids) to get to a great top but his pitching motion was pretty conventional.    As noted if you can make it work then why change it but what those two do is far from the norm.   The idea is to make it easy on ourselves and not fight the club.

Enjoy every sandwich

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1 minute ago, glk said:

Some others for your consideration

https://www.instagram.com/p/B9uS-bflJJD/
 

 

can also do these as partial swings once you have the general motion.   Imagine you have difficulty hitting partial swings with your current backswing.   Ray Floyd is the all time flatten the shaft player who raises the arms vertical and rotates them to the left (think jb Holmes on steroids) to get to a great top but his pitching motion was pretty conventional.    As noted if you can make it work then why change it but what those two do is far from the norm.   The idea is to make it easy on ourselves and not fight the club.

Yeah I can definitely have some trouble on partial shots. But I’m a little more confident in being steeper with irons and wedges because of how one would hit down on the ball. It’s the long irons/woods that give me the largest problems. 

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Go- I have probably seen this * back to the wall * drill illustration 40- 50 times over the years and my thoughts have been the same since I first saw it - terrible / awful / ridiculous/ and detrimental  to learning the swing ! Do I need to make my opinion clearer ? 
   Here are some FACTS , not my OPINION or THEORY ——— if wE are looking for a 90 degree shoulder turn — is it the upper torso that allows us to ROTATE 90 degrees ? NO - The average human vertebrae/ spine will ONLY turn / twist 25-30 degrees ! If we use 30 degrees we still need 60 degrees more . Well - we can get a few degrees from our flexible shoulder / upper arms - 20 degrees from them would be a stretch! OK - now we are to approx. 50 degrees ! Where does the other45-50 degrees come from ? 
    If you can back up your butt to a door jam or a wall with and turn your vertebrae / spine more than about 30 degrees without moving your BUTT away from that surface I would pay money to see it ! 
    All you can do is make a feeble attempt to raise your hands and arms upward without much rotation / turn ! Our HIPS must turn and they can’t if back up against a wall !

 

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