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Tiger vs. Jack


csh19792001

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55 minutes ago, csh19792001 said:

So what? 

 

By the mid to late 60's they all played. And that's when Jack's put up the greatest run of anyone at any Major, ever, occurred...and at the British Open, forced to play the style least suited to his natural skill set, and with different equipment (golf balls) than he had to use everywhere else. 

 

1966-1980 he finished out of the top 5 exactly ONCE there, and had 10 top 3 finishes.

 

Woods could never imagine consistency or dominance like that at a Grand Slam. 

 


 

Jack won the 1966 Open

 

90% of the players were from the UK. And 4 amateurs finished in the top-30

 

 

Tigers first Open win was in 2000

 

The field reflected a far higher percentage of US players as well as international participation.
No amateurs even made the cut. 

 

 

 

 

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On 1/18/2021 at 5:03 PM, bscinstnct said:

 

 

Put it this way.

 

After 2000, besides TW with 15 here are the major leaders

 

Phil-5

Ernie-4

Rory-4

BK-4


That pretty much sums it up. Tigers the best to ever tee it up.

 

Plus, he has an HBO special 

 

Two parts!

 

I don’t see Jack with nothing like that.

 

😂

 

 

 

I’m watching Jack’s 3 part special on GC right now, narrated by Magnum P.I.  He just hit that incredible 1 iron to the 17th at Pebble - I was nervous!

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Goat topics are always fun, but eventually , you learn to respect all the greats for their contributions to the game and within the eras that they played .  Records are meant to be achieved, and surpassed. Jack set the bar ,  and Tiger has surpassed many, not all. He still has time, but the clock is ticking. 5th surgery is in the books. At the end of the day, you have to respect what both men have achieved, in their time, playing competitive golf



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Well Tiger did win 3 Jr US Amateurs in a row then followed that up with 3 US Ams, didnt he win 4 majors in a row dubbed the Tiger Slam? and didn't he have a 7 in a row winning streak, closed out 14/14 majors after third round lead? Other than that I think Jacks got him.  

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10 minutes ago, mosesgolf said:

Well Tiger did win 3 Jr US Amateurs in a row then followed that up with 3 US Ams, didnt he win 4 majors in a row dubbed the Tiger Slam? and didn't he have a 7 in a row winning streak, closed out 14/14 majors after third round lead? Other than that I think Jacks got him.  

I’ve spoken my piece on this topic often enough, so I’ll keep it short.  Did anyone ever throw up a 64 or 65 against Tiger in the final round?  Remembering 77 at Turnberry. I readily admit the fields are deeper now, but  shallower fields also allow players to develop into good closers who don’t fold under final round pressure. Let’s face it, not too many players stepped up to the challenge of facing Tiger in a final round. 
 

But overall, I’m just glad I got to watch both of them play. 

Edited by deadsolid...shank
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7 minutes ago, deadsolid...shank said:

I’ve spoken my piece on this topic often enough, so I’ll keep it short.  Did anyone ever throw up a 64 or 65 against Tiger in the final round?  Remembering 77 at Turnberry. I readily admit the fields are deeper now, but  shallower fields also allow players to develop into good closers who don’t fold under final round pressure. Let’s face it, not too many players stepped up to the challenge of facing Tiger in a final round. 


 

Bob May threw everything and the kitchen sink at TW.

 

He went 66-66-66, sunk that 15 footer to force the playoff. 
 

 

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On 1/18/2021 at 4:24 PM, csh19792001 said:

Hi Everyone! 

Brand new here; I hope this is the correct place for this Thread.  If not, could a Moderator please move it? Thank you!

 

So...who was a greater golfer? Why?

 

Below is my personal (initial) take. I'm hoping to learn as much as possible from the Resident Experts and Veterans here!

 

Here are some reasons why I (currently) rank Jack Nicklaus GOAT ahead of Tiger Woods. Despite Tiger being a hero of mine, starting all the way back when I was a kid:

Most Top 3 Finishes, Majors:
Nicklaus: 48
Woods: 26
Mickelson: 23
Snead: 22

Most Top 10 Finishes, Majors
Nicklaus: 73
Snead: 46
Watson: 46
Player: 44
Hogan: 39
Woods: 39

Nicklaus finished runner up in Majors 19 times. Tiger only 7 times.

Top Tier HOF players Jack had to face, mostly through their primes, also:
Watson
Palmer
Player
Casper
Trevino
Floyd
Miller
Ballesteros

Jack lost 7 Major Championships to Tom Watson and Lee Trevino alone.

Top Tier HOF Players Tiger had to face a ton:
Mickelson
Singh
Els
McIlroy (possibly)
 

I have much more to say about this, but I figured that's a start.

 

Thanks again, everyone.

 

-Chris

 

Here's an idea Chris.

 

Search the site with "Jack" and "Tiger" being the key words.

 

I'm betting you can find all the comparisons you'd care to,,,,,,, and then some,,,,,, 🙃

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What about their amateur careers?

Jack won the US Amateur in 59 and 61

Tiger won the juniors in 91,92,93 then the US Amateur 94,95,96 six years consecutive he won the biggest Tournaments

 

Tigers AM career to me is the second greatest amateur career after Jones. Tiger should be in the HOF for just his amateur career

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15 hours ago, csh19792001 said:

So what? 

 

By the mid to late 60's they all played. And that's when Jack's put up the greatest run of anyone at any Major, ever, occurred...and at the British Open, forced to play the style least suited to his natural skill set, and with different equipment (golf balls) than he had to use everywhere else. 

 

1966-1980 he finished out of the top 5 exactly ONCE there, and had 10 top 3 finishes.

 

Woods could never imagine consistency or dominance like that at a Grand Slam. 

 

No they did not “all play” . The 1978 Open Championship just came on the GC. There were 23 Americans in the field. Hardly a representation of who’s who in golf at the time. 

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16 hours ago, m d g said:

That doesn't sound very Tiger-like but I don't know for sure.

 

Tiger doesn't seem like a man who is interested in having almost as many majors as Jack.

 

Kind of what makes him Tiger : )

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/tiger-woods-explains-jack-nicklaus-majors-poster-2015-12%3famp
 

Here’s one article, took about two seconds to find. I’m sure I can find others. 

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1 hour ago, Naptime said:

If the played head to head in their primes, I think Tiger wins 3 and 2.  Since there is no meaningful playing history between them, I don't think the comparisons matter.


 

If we look at matching Jack and TW head to head, one thing people say is,

 

Jack was long and accurate

TW was long but “sprayed his drives”

 

However, when TW first got on tour and was using the small steel head driver and 43’” steel shaft, he was hitting 70%+ fairways and still stupid long. It wasn’t until the equipment change and his “poor” adaptation that he got down into the 55%-60% fairways hit range.

 

So, Jack would be facing a guy just as long, just as accurate, as skilled with long irons, and as clutch a putter.

 

But, who also had a short game like Trevino ; )

Edited by bscinstnct
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4 hours ago, bscinstnct said:


 

If we look at matching Jack and TW head to head, one thing people say is,

 

Jack was long and accurate

TW was long but “sprayed his drives”

 

However, when TW first got on tour and was using the small steel head driver and 43’” steel shaft, he was hitting 70%+ fairways and still stupid long. It wasn’t until the equipment change and his “poor” adaptation that he got down into the 55%-60% fairways hit range.

 

So, Jack would be facing a guy just as long, just as accurate, as skilled with long irons, and as clutch a putter.

 

But, who also had a short game like Trevino ; )

Except Tiger DID always spray his drives.

 

Compared to Jack, he was a lousy driver.

 

Driving Accuracy Rank, by Year. And this doesn't include any of his partial years, or years when he was hurt. The best he EVER managed in driving accuracy was 54th. 

 

Age Year Accuracy Rank
20 1997 68.62 97th
21 1998 67.88 116th
22 1999 71.31 65th
23 2000 71.22 54th
24 2001 65.48 145th
25 2002 67.52 107th
26 2003 62.71 142nd
27 2004 56.13 182nd
28 2005 54.58 191th
29 2006 60.71 139th
30 2007 59.83 152nd
32 2009 64.29 86nd
35 2012 63.93 55nd
36 2013 62.5 69th
42 2018 59.35 127th


And Nicklaus, well past his prime, in his 40s, without personal trainers, nutritionists, kinesiologists, swing coaches, etc, etc. to make him much better, for much longer, like Tiger. And while focusing on family, primarily, unlike Tiger.

 

Age Year Accuracy Rank Total Driving  
40 1980 72.11 10th 1  
41 1981 70.72 12th 1  
42 1982 69.37 22nd 1  
43 1983 67.68 40th 3  
44 1984 64.79 69th 14  

 

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14 minutes ago, csh19792001 said:

Except Tiger DID always spray his drives.

 

Compared to Jack, he was a lousy driver.

 

Driving Accuracy Rank, by Year. And this doesn't include any of his partial years, or years when he was hurt. The best he EVER managed in driving accuracy was 54th. 

 

 

Age Year Accuracy Rank
20 1997 68.62 97th
21 1998 67.88 116th
22 1999 71.31 65th
23 2000 71.22 54th
24 2001 65.48 145th
25 2002 67.52 107th
26 2003 62.71 142nd
27 2004 56.13 182nd
28 2005 54.58 191th
29 2006 60.71 139th
30 2007 59.83 152nd
32 2009 64.29 86nd
35 2012 63.93 55nd
36 2013 62.5 69th
42 2018 59.35 127th

 


And Nicklaus, well past his prime, in his 40s, without personal trainers, nutritionists, kinesiologists, swing coaches, etc, etc. to make him much better, for much longer, like Tiger. And while focusing on family, primarily, unlike Tiger.

 

 

Age Year Accuracy Rank Total Driving  
40 1980 72.11 10th 1  
41 1981 70.72 12th 1  
42 1982 69.37 22nd 1  
43 1983 67.68 40th 3  
44 1984 64.79 69th 14  

 


csh, I’m a patient man

 

31FAA837-99A7-45B5-9016-352C7A8E924D.jpeg
 

 

😂

 

Actually, I’m not.

 

Did you look at the actual percentage numbers?

 

What does it matter if TW was 54th?

 

He was hitting 71% fairways in 99 and 00. And at the top in distance. 
 

Jack was 12th in 81 and hit 71% fairways as well. 
 

Now look at my post again as it puts this all in context ; )

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12 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:


csh, I’m a patient man

 

31FAA837-99A7-45B5-9016-352C7A8E924D.jpeg
 

 

😂

 

Actually, I’m not.

 

Did you look at the actual percentage numbers?

 

What does it matter if TW was 54th?

 

He was hitting 71% fairways in 99 and 00. And at the top in distance. 
 

Jack was 12th in 81 and hit 71% fairways as well. 
 

Now look at my post again as it puts this all in context ; )

Raw numbers are meaningless. 

 

Context is what matters. Hence each's relative Tour Ranking. 

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26 minutes ago, csh19792001 said:

Raw numbers are meaningless. 

 

Context is what matters. Hence each's relative Tour Ranking. 


 

The fact that TW hit 70% fairways is “meaningless”?  Hitting 70% fairways is “spraying drives”? 
He won 4 majors in a row because he had zero weaknesses in his game.

 

Here is a quote from Tom Watson about TW,

 

“Let me put it this way,” said Watson, an eight-time major winner, “he’s the best player in golf who ever came down the pike. Even Jack Nicklaus would agree with that now.”

 

And here is a quote from Lord Byron Nelson to Tom Watson,


“I've seen Ben Hogan, Jack Nicklaus and you. I've seen them all. Tom, this young fellow has no weaknesses."

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, bscinstnct said:


 

The fact that TW hit 70% fairways is “meaningless”?  Hitting 70% fairways is “spraying drives”? 
He won 4 majors in a row because he had zero weaknesses in his game.

 

Here is a quote from Tom Watson about TW,

 

“Let me put it this way,” said Watson, an eight-time major winner, “he’s the best player in golf who ever came down the pike. Even Jack Nicklaus would agree with that now.”

 

And here is a quote from Lord Byron Nelson to Tom Watson,


“I've seen Ben Hogan, Jack Nicklaus and you. I've seen them all. Tom, this young fellow has no weaknesses."

 

 

 

 

Where are your citations for those quotes? I'd love to read the articles! 

 

In any case, Tiger switched to the Nike Tour Accuracy (forerunner to the Pro V!) from a wound ball in May 2000. Like most pros, he had been using a Titleist Tour Balata (wound ball with liquid core). Here's what they/he said about it:

 

At the 2000 Masters, one month before Woods officially put the Nike Tour Accuracy into tournament play in Germany, 59 of the 95 players had used a wound ball. In the ensuing year, Woods won nine events. When he capped off the Tiger Slam in 2001 at Augusta National, all but four players in the field used a solid-core ball.

 

The effect that the development of the Nike Tour Accuracy and Woods’s use of it had on other players and golf history wasn’t lost on Woods. Years later, in 2014, he said, “The biggest transition I ever made was in 2000.  I won four straight majors with that ball. Everyone switched later. Being a part of that wave of innovation was exciting for me.”

 

The second week of October, Titleist reps showed up at the Tour event in Las Vegas packing 400 dozen prototype Pro V1s. Forty-seven Tour players immediately put Pro V1 in play, making it the largest pluralistic shift of equipment at one event in golf history. Billy Andrade played the ball and won the tournament. Due to the incredible momentum Pro V1 experienced in its first few months on Tour , Titleist accelerated the market launch of Pro V1 forward from March 2001 to December 2000. The damage to the Nike Tour Accuracy’s future was done, because in the old ball game, what PGA Tour players play is what sells to the masses.

 

Devlin remembers thinking, “F—, we missed the window.”

 

Citation (hell of an article!!!). Enjoy it!! 🙂

https://golf.com/gear/golf-balls/tiger-woods-golf-ball-nike/

 

The switch to a drastically better golf ball than everyone else was using, in 2000, was a huge part of him putting up the greatest back to back seasons of all time. And it's another reason why he did so incredibly well relative to the field in 2000; as we all know the Pro V1 construction three-piece ball flew drastically further and straighter than the balata balls.

 

Back directly on topic.....here are some contemporaneous quotes from greats about Nicklaus being the greatest ever, from Jack's peers, during Tiger's Prime:

 

"You saw the greatest player who has ever played the game come up the 18th hole of the Old Course, his favorite course in golf. I think the emotions and pictures spoke for themselves." -Tom Watson

 

-Miami Herald, 7/16/05

 

"Nicklaus was the greatest to ever hold a golf club." -Lee Trevino
 

-Philadelphia Daily News, 6/4/13

 

"Trevino has always called Nicklaus the greatest player he has known. 'Don't think for a second that Tiger could outdrive Jack in his best days. He hit the ball 280 to 300 yards with persimmon drivers. If he had modern equipment, he might drive it 400.'" -Lee Trevino

 

-Palm Spring Desert Sun, 1/23/04

 

"You have to admire everything." Woods said. "No one played the Majors as well. No one was as consistent for as long. Jack is the greatest that ever lived in our sport." -Tiger Woods

 

-Miami Herald, 1/16/2005

 

Much more to come. For now- and... I'm sure everyone hates him here 🙂, but as a coda to this post:

 

“Once you start looking at Hogan, Hogan then comes into the argument in a much, much bigger way,” Chamblee continues. “The idea that only majors defines who the greatest players are is a ridiculous argument. Hogan only won nine majors. He only played in 58. Jack played in 164. Tiger played in 84. Who’s going to win more majors? The guy who plays in the most. But Hogan was handicapped obviously because of the injury, and because, let’s just say, WWII interrupted things.”

 

-Brandel Chamblee, Golf Channel, 1/12/20

 

 

Edited by csh19792001
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11 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

Did you look at the actual percentage numbers?

 

What does it matter if TW was 54th?

 

He was hitting 71% fairways in 99 and 00. And at the top in distance. 
 

Jack was 12th in 81 and hit 71% fairways as well. 
 

Now look at my post again as it puts this all in context ; )

It matters a lot if TW's BEST in 25 years in driving accuracy was 54th, and Nicklaus was around 10th, old age, 1980-1984, with balata balls and persimmon drivers, while being perennially in the top 10 in driving distance, also. 

 

Why does it matter? Because it was a hell of a lot harder to hit the old ball straight, with those tiny, unforgiving, crappy persimmon drivers. 

 

That's why Tour Ranking in driving accuracy matters. Because context matters. Tremendously.

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On 1/19/2021 at 12:45 PM, Shilgy said:

But the the point was he was satisfied. Not that he wasn’t. He did not work as hard as he could have....how is that any kind of proof of greatness?

Jack was a great champion....but the older he gets the more he trots out that bit saying he could have worked harder. As if it’s a badge of honor that he accomplished what he did without working hard.

I'm sure most people's response to that would be, 'Aw, come on Jack.' In my opinion, he worked hard enough. Now if some other players not as accomplished said it, I'd believe it. 

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14 hours ago, csh19792001 said:

Except Tiger DID always spray his drives.

 

Compared to Jack, he was a lousy driver.

 

Driving Accuracy Rank, by Year. And this doesn't include any of his partial years, or years when he was hurt. The best he EVER managed in driving accuracy was 54th. 

 

 

Age Year Accuracy Rank
20 1997 68.62 97th
21 1998 67.88 116th
22 1999 71.31 65th
23 2000 71.22 54th
24 2001 65.48 145th
25 2002 67.52 107th
26 2003 62.71 142nd
27 2004 56.13 182nd
28 2005 54.58 191th
29 2006 60.71 139th
30 2007 59.83 152nd
32 2009 64.29 86nd
35 2012 63.93 55nd
36 2013 62.5 69th
42 2018 59.35 127th

 


And Nicklaus, well past his prime, in his 40s, without personal trainers, nutritionists, kinesiologists, swing coaches, etc, etc. to make him much better, for much longer, like Tiger. And while focusing on family, primarily, unlike Tiger.

 

 

Age Year Accuracy Rank Total Driving  
40 1980 72.11 10th 1  
41 1981 70.72 12th 1  
42 1982 69.37 22nd 1  
43 1983 67.68 40th 3  
44 1984 64.79 69th 14  

 

Lol, new to the forum and mixing and matching to suit your taste. You are comparing Tiger’s driving ACCURACY to Jack’s TOTAL DRIVING.  Total driving sort of matters. Accuracy? Not so much as the field is quite bunched and length matters more. 
This is like saying putting is the #1 benchmark for success. Guess what? It is not.

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Tiger is the greatest golfer of all time. Jack is the greatest major winner of all time.

 

Tiger's 99, 00, 01 run was the single greatest stretch in golf history. Nothing will come close. His four in a row is the single best year and we'll never see anything come close to that again. Spieth's run was as close as we'll get. Two wins and two runner ups in four majors. I know the British Open is T4 that year, but 1-3 were in a playoff and it's really a T2.

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5 hours ago, csh19792001 said:

 

Where are your citations for those quotes? I'd love to read the articles! 

 

In any case, Tiger switched to the Nike Tour Accuracy (forerunner to the Pro V!) from a wound ball in May 2000. Like most pros, he had been using a Titleist Tour Balata (wound ball with liquid core). Here's what they/he said about it:

 

At the 2000 Masters, one month before Woods officially put the Nike Tour Accuracy into tournament play in Germany, 59 of the 95 players had used a wound ball. In the ensuing year, Woods won nine events. When he capped off the Tiger Slam in 2001 at Augusta National, all but four players in the field used a solid-core ball.

 

The effect that the development of the Nike Tour Accuracy and Woods’s use of it had on other players and golf history wasn’t lost on Woods. Years later, in 2014, he said, “The biggest transition I ever made was in 2000.  I won four straight majors with that ball. Everyone switched later. Being a part of that wave of innovation was exciting for me.”

 

The second week of October, Titleist reps showed up at the Tour event in Las Vegas packing 400 dozen prototype Pro V1s. Forty-seven Tour players immediately put Pro V1 in play, making it the largest pluralistic shift of equipment at one event in golf history. Billy Andrade played the ball and won the tournament. Due to the incredible momentum Pro V1 experienced in its first few months on Tour , Titleist accelerated the market launch of Pro V1 forward from March 2001 to December 2000. The damage to the Nike Tour Accuracy’s future was done, because in the old ball game, what PGA Tour players play is what sells to the masses.

 

Devlin remembers thinking, “F—, we missed the window.”

 

Citation (hell of an article!!!). Enjoy it!! 🙂

https://golf.com/gear/golf-balls/tiger-woods-golf-ball-nike/

 

The switch to a drastically better golf ball than everyone else was using, in 2000, was a huge part of him putting up the greatest back to back seasons of all time. And it's another reason why he did so incredibly well relative to the field in 2000; as we all know the Pro V1 construction three-piece ball flew drastically further and straighter than the balata balls.

 

Back directly on topic.....here are some contemporaneous quotes from greats about Nicklaus being the greatest ever, from Jack's peers, during Tiger's Prime:

 

"You saw the greatest player who has ever played the game come up the 18th hole of the Old Course, his favorite course in golf. I think the emotions and pictures spoke for themselves." -Tom Watson

 

-Miami Herald, 7/16/05

 

"Nicklaus was the greatest to ever hold a golf club." -Lee Trevino
 

-Philadelphia Daily News, 6/4/13

 

"Trevino has always called Nicklaus the greatest player he has known. 'Don't think for a second that Tiger could outdrive Jack in his best days. He hit the ball 280 to 300 yards with persimmon drivers. If he had modern equipment, he might drive it 400.'" -Lee Trevino

 

-Palm Spring Desert Sun, 1/23/04

 

"You have to admire everything." Woods said. "No one played the Majors as well. No one was as consistent for as long. Jack is the greatest that ever lived in our sport." -Tiger Woods

 

-Miami Herald, 1/16/2005

 

Much more to come. For now- and... I'm sure everyone hates him here 🙂, but as a coda to this post:

 

“Once you start looking at Hogan, Hogan then comes into the argument in a much, much bigger way,” Chamblee continues. “The idea that only majors defines who the greatest players are is a ridiculous argument. Hogan only won nine majors. He only played in 58. Jack played in 164. Tiger played in 84. Who’s going to win more majors? The guy who plays in the most. But Hogan was handicapped obviously because of the injury, and because, let’s just say, WWII interrupted things.”

 

-Brandel Chamblee, Golf Channel, 1/12/20

 

 


 

Trevino made that comment in 1971 before TW was born ; ) 

 

“you've gotta be lucky to beat Jack Nicklaus because he's the greatest golfer who ever held a club."

 

 

https://www.inquirer.com/philly/sports/golf/2013-us-open-merion/20130604_Snake_charmer.html

 

 

 

 

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Shame on me for wanting to take a swing at this thoroughly beaten horse but here goes...

 

you can argue about who had the greatest career and I could understand deciding it was Jack.  But I don’t see how you can argue who the most dominant to ever swing a club.  To say it was Jack is a great insult to Tiger, and golf in general.  Sports evolve and to pretend that they don’t is silly.  Imagine what mike trout would have done in Babe Ruth’s era.  Imagine Max Sherzer pitching in 1930.  Imagine tiger competing in 1965.  All of those greats, and great they were, including Jack, would be in big trouble. 
 

so are we talking about who had the greatest career or who was the best to ever do it?  Because it is two different things.

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2019 Masters.  Bobby Jones once said of Jack that he plays a game that he is not familiar and Jack said the same about Tiger. 

 

Mike drop lol

Edited by mosesgolf

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Ping Senita 38 Putter

 

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4 hours ago, Shilgy said:

You are comparing Tiger’s driving ACCURACY to Jack’s TOTAL DRIVING. 

 

The claim I was replying directly to this claim (see below).  And, I not only cited driving accuracy for every year, I cited Tour Ranking in driving accuracy for every year (for which we have data). 

 

If we look at matching Jack and TW head to head, one thing people say is,

 

Jack was long and accurate

TW was long but “sprayed his drives”

 

However, when TW first got on tour and was using the small steel head driver and 43’” steel shaft, he was hitting 70%+ fairways and still stupid long. It wasn’t until the equipment change and his “poor” adaptation that he got down into the 55%-60% fairways hit range.

 

So, Jack would be facing a guy just as long, just as accurate, as skilled with long irons, and as clutch a putter.

 

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