Tiger vs. Jack

[csh19792001]

3 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

We just gave you a few examples of the top players not playing. I will add a player not traveling in the opposite direction,Peter Thompson only played in 5 US Opens....8 Masters and zero PGA championships.

That's one example. Which is anecdotal,  especially compared to what I've posted in this Thread. 

 

Where is all the evidence that Nicklaus: "Did not face as many top players as the fields  do in the last 25 years or so." ?

[Hawkeye77]

9 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

We just gave you a few examples of the top players not playing. I will add a player not traveling in the opposite direction,Peter Thompson only played in 5 US Opens....8 Masters and zero PGA championships.......on a related note did you know the Montreal Canadiens did not finish worse than 6th in the NHL from 1927-1967? 

Bill Russell and the Celtics!

[BNGL]

56 minutes ago, csh19792001 said:

You're basing this on what, exactly, and specifically? 

 

Where is your research on the subject? I'm sure you've studied this exhaustively. I'd be thrilled to see all your work. 

 

Thanks, man. 

Dork.

 

BNGL. GolfWRX. Tour Talk: Tiger vs. Jack. 22 Jan 2021. 

[csh19792001]

7 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Bill Russell and the Celtics!

The Bulls had the same winning percentage during the entire 90's as the Celtics had during the 60's.

[Hawkeye77]

10 minutes ago, csh19792001 said:

The Bulls had the same winning percentage during the entire 90's as the Celtics had during the 60's.

 

LOL. Who cares. Championships, championships.

[Hawkeye77]

17 minutes ago, BNGL said:

Dork.

 

BNGL. GolfWRX. Tour Talk: Tiger vs. Jack. 22 Jan 2021. 

 

Remember on the Brady Bunch when Jan joined the debate team? "Pick a side, debate me!"

 

Enjoying senior golf from Hawaii so may as well feed him a little, lol!

[csh19792001]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

LOL. Who cares. Championships, championships.

Oh please. Was Bill Russell better than Wilt Chamberlain? You really want to go down this road? 

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, csh19792001 said:

Oh please. Was Bill Russell better than Wilt Chamberlain? You really want to go down this road? 

Damn right he was! Your great grandpa would tell you if he could.

[csh19792001]

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

LOL. Who cares. Championships, championships.

Robert Horry was also better than Wilt Chamberlain. Way better. 

 

"Championships, championships."

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, csh19792001 said:

Robert Horry was also better than Wilt Chamberlain. Way better. 

 

"Championships, championships."

Non sequitur.

[csh19792001]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Damn right he was! Your great grandpa would tell you if he could.

 

You'd mean "Dad". How old are you, anyway?  

[Hawkeye77]

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Remember on the Brady Bunch when Jan joined the debate team? "Pick a side, debate me!"

 

Enjoying senior golf from Hawaii so may as well feed him a little, lol!

LOL, not really all that much fun after all.  Out of this one!  Happy late birthday to Jack, hope Tiger is feeling better!

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, csh19792001 said:

You're basing this on what, exactly, and specifically? 

 

Where is your research on the subject? I'm sure you've studied this exhaustively. I'd be thrilled to see all your work. 

 

Thanks, man. 

 

Keep in mind that many of the knowledgeable members that are sharing their opinions with you

 

Saw Jack play in his day. Another one...Frankenstein! He saw Jack play, wish he posted more.

 

Im really the only TW fanbois, President of the Tiger fan club that is chiming in. But my opinions on sports are tempered by a few decades of seeing some of the greatest of the greats across many sports since the mid 70s when, as a kid, I breathed sports.

 

We aren’t saying that Jack shouldn’t be considered as having the greatest career. 18 Majors says it all.

 

But some of us are saying, just as Jacks own best competition and even Byron Nelson who saw “them all” say,

 

“Tiger’s better”  ; )

Edited January 23, 2021 by bscinstnct

[csh19792001]

9 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

Im really the only TW fanbois, President of the Tiger fan club that is chiming in.

 

“Tiger’s better”  ; )

 

He very well might have been. He might have been much better than Jack. The average player has probably gotten substantially to drastically better (just during Tiger's career, look at Bryson and DJ for example). I think the level of the average player 2010-2020 is MUCH higher than 2000-2009, though. Look at the standard deviation of winning percentage of the top 30 on Tour, for each decade. 

 

In any case....Tiger has been my favorite golf superstar since the mid 2000's. I thought he was a total "you know what" when he came up in the 90's, but once his mind, body, and lifestyle caught up with him, I began to see him as an extremely flawed and fallible human being, like us all, unlike the icy terminator with zero personality or ingratiation/magnanimity... (like he portrayed to the public, back then). 

 

When he won the US Open with a broken leg, I think he largely won over the hearts of even those golf fans who disliked him or were ambivalent, prior. During and in the aftermath of the Infidelity/Sex Scandal, I think everyone saw him as just like anyone else; prone to act on our worst impulses. When he became addicted to drugs, and got the DUI, it made him even MORE human. 

 

And, when he won the 2019 Masters, he finally became a Hero to the *entire* sporting world, and even to people who didn't even like golf....or, even, sports.

[csh19792001]

9 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

“Tiger’s better”  ; )

 

You'll love this. In case you haven't seen it, wanted to share it with all the Tiger fans here:

 

Absolutely STAGGERING:

 

https://www.15thclub.com/2019/12/26/tiger-turns-44-woods-44-greatest-statistics/

 

 

 

[Man_O_War]

i thought this was an old topic...like why bring it up again...yet, there are new ideas and commentary...seems this horse is sore from being whupped up again and again...pain is good. I don't think most Majors should be the only measurement of greatness. We aren't talking about the winningmost...Simply the greatest golfer ever. Tough call.

[Guy In Lyon]

15 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

The Kings own daughter said he shared TWs penchant for pancakes

 

 

How about the drugs and car crashes?

I don't think I've ever heard that about Arnie.

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, csh19792001 said:

 

And, when he won the 2019 Masters, he finally became a Hero to the *entire* sporting world, and even to people who didn't even like golf....or, even, sports.

“Finally”?

 

The trolling is one thing, not really understanding Nicklaus is another, but to claim you have followed Tiger and golf and come up with that one? LOL, he was on the transcendent trajectory starting in 1997 - your observation is 20+ years late. Tiger plays blades, maybe start one about that. 

[csh19792001]

Just now, Hawkeye77 said:

“Finally”?

 

The trolling is one thing, not really understanding Nicklaus is another, but to claim you have followed Tiger and golf and come up with that one? LOL, he was on the transcendent trajectory starting in 1997 - your observation is 20+ years late. Tiger plays blades, maybe start one about that. 

How am I trolling? What specifically was said?

 

What am I not understanding about Jack Nicklaus? What specifically am I missing? 

 

Tiger wasn't even liked at all by his Tour Pro peers until fairly recently. Much less the general public, who don't even follow sports, much less golf (which almost nobody cares about). However, The Comebacks from both massive injury, then drug addiction, then his Masters win in 2019 sealed that deal. 

 

Incidentally...because you sound confused here....I'm not talking about respect for his game. I'm talking about universal adoration for him as a human being, independent of what happens between the ropes. 

[Hawkeye77]

2 minutes ago, csh19792001 said:

How am I trolling? What specifically was said?

 

What am I not understanding about Jack Nicklaus? What specifically am I missing? 

 

Tiger wasn't even liked at all by his Tour Pro peers until fairly recently. Much less the general public, who don't even follow sports, much less golf (which almost nobody cares about). However, The Comebacks from both massive injury, then drug addiction, then his Masters win in 2019 sealed that deal. 

 

Incidentally...because you sound confused here....I'm not talking about respect for his game. I'm talking about universal adoration for him as a human being, independent of what happens between the ropes. 

1997-2008 is calling - you missed it all. 

[csh19792001]

Just now, Hawkeye77 said:

1997-2008 is calling - you missed it all. 

You're being hostile and dismissive for no reason. That's "Trolling". 

 

Post something substantive or at least respond directly to what I said.

[Hawkeye77]

Like George C. Scott in Anatomy Of A Murder, I keep getting “gigged like the frog”, lol. Hopping across the pond for Euro finish. 

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, Guy In Lyon said:

How about the drugs and car crashes?

I don't think I've ever heard that about Arnie.

 

You heard nothing about any athletes/celebrity hijinks back in those days.

 

Mickey Mantle was partying like a rockstar at the Copa, lots of ladies, and you heard nothing.

 

I mean, look at JFK 😂

 

The media back then did not report the things they do now.

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by bscinstnct

[tw_focus]

2 hours ago, csh19792001 said:

Tiger wasn't even liked at all by his Tour Pro peers until fairly recently. Much less the general public, who don't even follow sports, much less golf (which almost nobody cares about).

 

TW wasn't liked by his peers because he beat them round after round. They couldn't compete with the GOAT, they viewed him as an obstacle to their success. Ask Charles Barkley or Karl Malone how they feel about MJ. It's lonely being the GOAT.

 

As for the general public, they love and have always loved TW. Ask yourself why golf boomed in the early 00s. It was only the news media that hated TW, because TW never rubbed noses with them. TW was interested in winning, not making paychecks for washed up news anchors.

[bscinstnct]

3 hours ago, csh19792001 said:

How am I trolling? What specifically was said?

 

What am I not understanding about Jack Nicklaus? What specifically am I missing? 

 

Tiger wasn't even liked at all by his Tour Pro peers until fairly recently. Much less the general public, who don't even follow sports, much less golf (which almost nobody cares about). However, The Comebacks from both massive injury, then drug addiction, then his Masters win in 2019 sealed that deal. 

 

Incidentally...because you sound confused here....I'm not talking about respect for his game. I'm talking about universal adoration for him as a human being, independent of what happens between the ropes. 

 

Whacha mean?

 

Nobody cares about anybody as a “human being”. Lol, people dislike even most people is their own families. 😂

 

 

TW, and his greatest show on Earth, gave them a respite from the meager drudgery of their lives!

 

And they loved him for that. Regardless of his personal life.

 

This win set it in motion and made TW a household name around the world 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by bscinstnct

[CT007]

WRT to strength of field and competition , I think they both played who they played.  

 

Tiger’s 18 WGC wins “could” be discounted due to limited field, made for TV like events.   Just as could be said of Jack’s Sahara Invitational, or the 4 Ball, etc.

 

I just don’t buy the agreement one played better fields than the other.

 

TW’s 10 year run was like nothing else.  

 

Jack’s career was like nothing else.

[csh19792001]

1 minute ago, CT007 said:

WRT to strength of field and competition , I think they both played who they played.  

 

Tiger’s 18 WGC wins “could” be discounted due to limited field, made for TV like events.   Just as could be said of Jack’s Sahara Invitational, or the 4 Ball, etc.

 

I just don’t buy the agreement one played better fields than the other.

 

TW’s 10 year run was like nothing else.  

 

Jack’s career was like nothing else.

This is the most intelligent and fair post I've read in quite awhile on this Thread.

 

If anyone has evidence that Jack's fields were a lot weaker, though, I'm all ears...

 

Nobody, among everyone here, has said anything comprehensive or convincing on the subject. 
 

I, on the other hand, showed unequivocally that 1. Jack faced much better top 5 competition and 2. That Jack beat (and was beaten) by much better golfers in the Majors than Tiger, overall.

Edited January 23, 2021 by csh19792001

[BNGL]

3 hours ago, Guy In Lyon said:

How about the drugs and car crashes?

I don't think I've ever heard that about Arnie.

Alcohol was just as prevalent as was the adultering (didn’t know that wasn’t a word). It was just less reported on because journalism was different in the past. Nowadays any yahoo with internet access can publish stories immediately after they happen and reach literally anywhere in the world. 
 

But drug usage, car wrecks, adultering, and other vices of the like have no bearing on whether someone was a better player than another.

[Hawkeye77]

53 minutes ago, csh19792001 said:

 

 

Nobody, among everyone here, has said anything comprehensive or convincing on the subject. 
 

I, on the other hand, showed unequivocally that 1. Jack faced much better top 5 competition and 2. That Jack beat (and was beaten) by much better golfers in the Majors than Tiger, overall.

But not trolling .................... 🤥
 

Geometric logic, of course. 
 

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[bscinstnct]

50 minutes ago, csh19792001 said:

This is the most intelligent and fair post I've read in quite awhile on this Thread.

 

If anyone has evidence that Jack's fields were a lot weaker, though, I'm all ears...

 

Nobody, among everyone here, has said anything comprehensive or convincing on the subject. 
 

I, on the other hand, showed unequivocally that 1. Jack faced much better top 5 competition and 2. That Jack beat (and was beaten) by much better golfers in the Majors than Tiger, overall.

 

“If anyone has evidence that Jack's fields were a lot weaker, though, I'm all ears..”

 

 

In 1966, there were 95 players from the UK in the Open.

 

In 2018, there were 30.

 

The depth of field in 1966 is a joke compared to modern times.