Forgiveness question

[eugkim]

Got my son a fitting with a top 100 club fitter. He had some great insight. The boy is an 18, took golf up 2 years ago. Has a decent swing speed (driver 102, 7 iron 84), but erratic contact. Tends to hit thin. Using i20s that seem to work, but they need shaft repairs, so I figured I'd pay for a fit to see if it's worth repairing with shafts that don't work. 

 

The fitter pushed low bounce irons to improve ground strike, so he concentrated on Mizuno. He seemed to strike the MMCs the best. I figured that the Hot Metals would come out on top, but he never got comfortable with them. When I questioned the pro about the MMCs not being forgiving enough, he poo-pooed forgiveness, saying that his good strikes were among the best with the MMCs, and he seemed comfortable with them. He felt that, with improvement, the forgiveness wouldn't be an issue.

 

So, should reviews go out the window? I seriously considered the MMCs, but worried about consistency. For now, I'll have him use my some of my old clubs. He actually fits into a stiff 120g shaft which is what I use, so he can play around with one of the many sets I have lying around. Before finding a used set of MMCs, I was hoping to get some other opinions.

 

Thanks.

 

[Feelingofgreatness]

My view is go as forgiving as your eyes can handle. Just be careful of too much of offsetting you are a drawer. 

[Go Horns!]

TXG did a video on this. They fit a mid-cap into blades (MP-20s) because the thin sole gave the most help with turf interaction. 

 

Did the fitter show you the dispersion patterns? Sure his best strikes might be with the MMCs, but are they too few and far between? 

[greenwavegolfer]

Here's the thing, forgiveness is relative. Manufacturers generally only compare based on MOI and that's certainly the easiest way to calculate with real numbers and compare, but it doesn't make an iron most forgiving for every single player. If your son tends to miss low on the face then making toe and heel strikes more forgiving doesn't do much for him. Instead finding something that allows him to move strike up the face, or maybe moves CG lower so there's less vertical gear effect on those low strikes probably offers more improvement. Finding a low bounce iron that in general might move the strike up a little bit seems like a logical step for a good fitter to take. Seems like he took your son's specific miss and tendencies into consideration instead of just throwing an iron that's "designed for a specific handicap". This is why good fittings are great, when they go beyond just the cliched ideas of what might work for some generic "type" of golfer and figure out what actually works for the specific golfer and their specific needs.

[golfing_penguin]

I'd agree with the posts about turf interaction. Superbly anecdotal I know, but I've had players hit two different type of iron (Titleist 716mb and AP2) and the GC showed contact was as identical as they could get with angle of attack, location etc. But the player swore blind that the AP2 was chunked. That's what we all interpret as forgiving, or not

[COL_B]

I'm suspect of turf interaction and forgiveness judgments when hitting off of mats.

 

I hit blades really well off flat lies and mats, or firm fairways.

 

When it gets more dicey is off downhill, sidehill lies -- which is basically every iron shot I hit on an actual course.

[Stuart_G]

17 hours ago, eugkim said:

So, should reviews go out the window? I seriously considered the MMCs, but worried about consistency. For now, I'll have him use my some of my old clubs. He actually fits into a stiff 120g shaft which is what I use, so he can play around with one of the many sets I have lying around. Before finding a used set of MMCs, I was hoping to get some other opinions.

 

 

Everyone is different as to what they might need to get the best consistency in the results.   Reviews are (over) generalizations.  Fittings get results that are tailored to the individual - although highly dependent on the expertise of the fitter so still potentially questionable.

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Ri_Redneck]

I the fitter didn't experiment with weighting when your son was hitting the clubs, then you have nothing to go on. Erratic contact is often caused by a club that is not balanced to suit the golfer. Could be too light/heavy and everything goes to crap. Bring the weighting to the right point and he starts pureing everything. Fittings an art and there's a serious shortage of artists out there.

 

BT

[eugkim]

Thanks for the responses.

 

I agree that the fitter was correct in pushing him towards low bounce clubs; in fairness, he went through the JPX 921 Forged/Hot Metal Pro, HMBs, P770s, P790s, i500. He couldn't seem to get any consistent strikes except with the MMCs and i500. I have a set of i500s, so I'll let him try them. 

 

In terms of weighting, he went through various shaft weights. He concluded that the heavier shafts helped to promote better contact. He didn't change head weight if that is the concern.

 

I'm hoping that he likes either my i20s or i500s, as it will save me some scratch. In the meantime, I'll keep my eyes open for a good deal on MP18 or MP20 MMCs.

[Feelingofgreatness]

10 hours ago, COL_B said:

I'm suspect of turf interaction and forgiveness judgments when hitting off of mats.

 

I hit blades really well off flat lies and mats, or firm fairways.

 

When it gets more dicey is off downhill, sidehill lies -- which is basically every iron shot I hit on an actual course.

such a valid point

[nsxguy]

12 hours ago, COL_B said:

I'm suspect of turf interaction and forgiveness judgments when hitting off of mats.

 

You are a very intelligent fellow !

[Tree Levino]

On 1/18/2021 at 9:25 PM, Go Horns! said:

TXG did a video on this. They fit a mid-cap into blades (MP-20s) because the thin sole gave the most help with turf interaction. 

 

Did the fitter show you the dispersion patterns? Sure his best strikes might be with the MMCs, but are they too few and far between? 

They did but i thought that one was a bit silly... the guy hit the MMC waaaaay straighter. They should’ve just bent them weak to add bounce. 

[ChipNRun]

22 hours ago, greenwavegolfer said:

Manufacturers generally only compare based on MOI and that's certainly the easiest way to calculate with real numbers and compare, but it doesn't make an iron most forgiving for every single player.

 

Yes, MOI is only a starting point. Sometimes forgiveness features can be "too much of a good thing."

 

* Excess offset leading ball leftward for some...

 

* SGI: High launch heads + high launch shafts = short iron shots that all balloon...

 

* 40-gram shaft that gives you more distance forward, or hard left, or banana right...