Another rules question

[limegreengent]

1 hour ago, naval2006 said:

But once you've dropped the ball is the ball in play even if you have to redrop because the ball got closer to the hole after bouncing, or back to the penalty area, etc. 

 

Naval 

Sometimes it is a better learning curve  by answering the questions yourself.

So rather than telling you the answer read 14.5b(1),(2) and (3) and tell us the correct answer

Have a Go🤔🤔

[Halebopp]

2 hours ago, Imp said:

I think it's a bit disingenuous to always lean on the 95% here, ignoring the 1st half of the rule:

"There is conclusive evidence that the event in question happened to the player’s ball, such as when the player or other witnesses saw it happen, or

Although there is a very small degree of doubt, all reasonably available information shows that it is at least 95% likely that the event in question happened."

 

The player needs to have Knowledge or Virtual Certainty. The first half covers the knowledge part. Someone finds the ball in the Penalty Area or sees the ball go into the Penalty Area and knows, or saw, it didn't come out. But seeing it didn't come out is different from not seeing it come out and that's why we need to resort to Virtual Certainty quite often.

 

[Sawgrass]

2 hours ago, naval2006 said:

But once you've dropped the ball is the ball in play even if you have to redrop because the ball got closer to the hole after bouncing, or back to the penalty area, etc.  The ball the OP labels provisional is not so.  

I won't go into an incorrect label of a provisional, but to the first half of your question, yes, a ball is "in play" if it is dropped and bounces away from the proper relief area.  (That's how you get penalized for playing from the wrong place.)

 

From the beginning of the definition of "in play:"

 

In Play

The status of a player’s ball when it lies on the course and is being used in the play of a hole:

 

 

 

[Sawgrass]

2 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

The player needs to have Knowledge or Virtual Certainty. The first half covers the knowledge part. Someone finds the ball in the Penalty Area or sees the ball go into the Penalty Area and knows, or saw, it didn't come out. But seeing it didn't come out is different from not seeing it come out and that's why we need to resort to Virtual Certainty quite often.

 

And, in the subject instance, it's clear the player didn't "know" it stayed in the water -- after all, it didn't.

[Mr. Bean]

12 hours ago, antip said:

Precisely, ball is in play when replaced, dropped or placed with intent to be in play (14.4).

 

This is actually an intriguing feature in the Rules. It is possible to have two balls in play at the same time. Sounds bizarre...

[Mr. Bean]

33 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

The player needs to have Knowledge or Virtual Certainty. The first half covers the knowledge part. Someone finds the ball in the Penalty Area or sees the ball go into the Penalty Area and knows, or saw, it didn't come out. But seeing it didn't come out is different from not seeing it come out and that's why we need to resort to Virtual Certainty quite often.

 

 

Exactly.

 

Also one could ask what are those 'conclusive evidences' and how are they verified as such.

[Sawgrass]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

This is actually an intriguing feature in the Rules. It is possible to have two balls in play at the same time. Sounds bizarre...

Kind of, but the Definition says no:

 

The player cannot have more than one ball in play at any time. (See Rule 6.3d for the limited cases when a player may play more than one ball at the same time on a hole.)

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Sawgrass said:

Kind of, but the Definition says no:

 

The player cannot have more than one ball in play at any time. (See Rule 6.3d for the limited cases when a player may play more than one ball at the same time on a hole.)

 

 

 

And now we come to the intriguing part:

 

If there is already a ball in play how can another ball dropped be also in play? The explanation cannot be that the ball dropped renders the other ball not to be in play as that ball may also be in play but the location is not clear.

 

Or is it so that once a ball is dropped that ball is in play and the other ball is not in play, but once the dropped ball is lifted as it was dropped incorrectly the other ball again becomes the ball in play? Sounds complicated...

 

At this point you should already be aware that I am just pulling your leg, Sawgrass... 😄

 

[antip]

28 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

And now we come to the intriguing part:

 

If there is already a ball in play how can another ball dropped be also in play? The explanation cannot be that the ball dropped renders the other ball not to be in play as that ball may also be in play but the location is not clear.

 

Or is it so that once a ball is dropped that ball is in play and the other ball is not in play, but once the dropped ball is lifted as it was dropped incorrectly the other ball again becomes the ball in play? Sounds complicated...

 

At this point you should already be aware that I am just pulling your leg, Sawgrass... 😄

 

Or is it so that once a ball is dropped that ball is in play and the other ball is not in play, but once the dropped ball is lifted as it was dropped incorrectly the other ball again becomes the ball in play?

 

This is correct. If you have substituted a ball into play, the original ball is automatically no longer in play and is now a wrong ball (definition of in play). If 14.5 is correctly applied to remove the substituted ball from play the original ball reverts to being in play again. 

 

The explanation IS that the ball dropped renders the original ball to be not in play, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily out of the hole permanently.

[2bGood]

On 1/19/2021 at 9:01 AM, naval2006 said:

A dropped ball is always the ball in play. 

This could be the most clever statement ever or (maybe not). Either way, you are making my mind do back flips with it.

 

According the the ROG  definitions, when I extend my arm to knee height and let go of a provisional I have not dropped the ball. As a ball can only be dropped if it is intended to be in play, and provisionals are not intended to be in play when you 'let go of the ball' and only become in play in circumstance described in rule 18.3c. 

 

Drop

To hold the ball and let go of it so that it falls through the air, with the intent for the ball to be in play.

If the player lets go of a ball without intending it to be in play, the ball has not been dropped and is not in play (see Rule 14.4).

 

Provisional Ball

Another ball played in case the ball just played by the player may be:

• Out of bounds, or

• Lost outside a penalty area.

A provisional ball is not the player’s ball in play, unless it becomes the ball in play under Rule 18.3c.

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by 2bGood

[antip]

13 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

This could be the most clever statement ever or (maybe not). Either way, you are making my mind do back flips with it.

 

According the the ROG  definitions, when I extend my arm to knee height and let go of a provisional I have not dropped the ball. As a ball can only be dropped if it is intended to be in play, and provisionals are not intended to be in play when you 'let go of the ball' and only become in play in circumstance described in rule 18.3c. 

 

Drop

To hold the ball and let go of it so that it falls through the air, with the intent for the ball to be in play.

If the player lets go of a ball without intending it to be in play, the ball has not been dropped and is not in play (see Rule 14.4).

 

Provisional Ball

Another ball played in case the ball just played by the player may be:

• Out of bounds, or

• Lost outside a penalty area.

A provisional ball is not the player’s ball in play, unless it becomes the ball in play under Rule 18.3c.

 

 

 

Two points. First, you are on the money, the original Naval statement does not hold unless intent is present. Second, that definition of provisional is not incorrect, but it is not complete. That provisional ball is in play as a provisional ball even before it is struck (ie when correctly announced and dropped), and there are rulings that affirm that. Edit - to add - there is a difference between being a ball in play as a provisional and being "THE" ball in play - the subject of the last sentence in the definition.

Edited January 21, 2021 by antip

[Sawgrass]

58 minutes ago, antip said:

Two points. First, you are on the money, the original Naval statement does not hold unless intent is present. Second, that definition of provisional is not incorrect, but it is not complete. That provisional ball is in play as a provisional ball even before it is struck (ie when correctly announced and dropped), and there are rulings that affirm that. Edit - to add - there is a difference between being a ball in play as a provisional and being "THE" ball in play - the subject of the last sentence in the definition.

I like the phrase used by you earlier, “ball potentially in play.”

 

At least I think you said it, and said it that way — I’m not sure, there’s been a lot of cool Rules discussions around here lately!

[antip]

3 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

I like the phrase used by you earlier, “ball potentially in play.”

 

At least I think you said it, and said it that way — I’m not sure, there’s been a lot of cool Rules discussions around here lately!

I did. Another phrase I used earlier was "ball in play provisionally", something I recall being used under the old rules and which strikes me as intuitively very helpful. This is equivalent to "ball potentially in play" but that leaves more unsaid.