The biggest reasons ams don’t get better. Butch Harmon...

[TheDeanAbides]

9 hours ago, dlow206 said:

For me personally, I segregate between "feels weird" and "feels different". When a good instructor who knows what they are doing (such as Monte), tells me to do something i've never thought anything "feels weird" but it did feel different and that is good, its different than whatever bad things I have  been doing. Whatever Monte tells me to do in my lesson, i do it and trust it.

 

But I have had bad instructors tell me things like "swing to right field" without identifying and fixing and real root cause issues and that just felt weird. It felt weird because I started making weird movements in the backswing to try to swing right in the downswing. And this wasn't just a drill or temporary prescription from the bad instructor... So I think sometimes when something feels weird and its coming from a bad instructor, it can truly be bad. 

Yes. "Feels weird" is the path to "I don't like this. I look stupid. It'll never work", but "feels different" is a path of interest and curiosity - "I need to feel different to change". 

[gentles]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ3Y1u-Fd0m/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Edited January 21, 2021 by gentles

[gentles]

Double post 

Edited January 21, 2021 by gentles

[bortass]

10 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The changes get smaller.  You pick the low hanging fruit first.  Things that are leading to other issues.  I’m not a swing rebuilder to a model, nor am I am quick fix tip guy.  There is a huge window of success in between those extremes and that’s where I live.  Let’s make your swing the best it can be.

 

A guy shows up and says he hits a lot of fat shots and a lot of snap hooks with driver.  What’s the main reason?  He shifts excessively to the right, brings the center of mass out early and dumps the right shoulder to shallow out, which makes him EE, gets his path too right and face excessively open.

 

Step one, get the pelvis in a better position at the top by understanding better rotation and it being a pressure shift versus a massive mass shift....go.....

 

6 weeks later, shaft isn’t so vertical, staying in left tilt longer, less EE, path less right, face matches path better....but all issues still there....to a lesser degree.

 

What’s the worst issue?......from excessive right shift, shaft still getting too vertical and had left wrist too extended in transition.  
 

Let’s get a little flex in his wrist intent going.

 

6 weeks later....right shift is less excessive and shaft is less vertical, right shoulder not dumping as badly (longer left tilt) and face is less open. 
 

Some residual EE is still there, even though it’s no longer necessary.  What works better, right hip staying in more left hip working away from the target more????????

 

Ideally, this is how the process works, IMO.  Maybe after 6 weeks the previous issue is still the #1 issue....let’s make this better, it’s still needs some work.

 

 

The process you outlined here is exactly how the pro I used to work with and I did things. It took a few years but he got my instaslice turned into a draw predominately. All the while I was seeing slow incremental improvement. There's no magic bullet, just time and effort. I'm currently working on NTC and while I have seem positive changes in my swing at times, I have a long way to go. My scores will bounce around and I know this. I am looking at my ball flight on course as my indicator of progress, not the score card per se.

[golfsticks]

Creativity never hurts either toward unlocking a brain freeze one may have about something so simple as  swinging at a ball on the ground,  and what's actually possible if we get out of our own way mentally so the body can react.    

 

I learned, without cheating address for striking the main ball as intended, one can hit multiple tangents, as we react to a task.    An old Ben Doyle fun routine.

 

[bonvivantva]

10 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

My observation is most golfers won’t sustain much of a change in 2 weeks unless  it’s an elite player with dozens of hours of practice.  
 

2 weeks later you’re paying me to watch you hit balls and say the same thing.

 

4-6 weeks is enough time to see some change, right or wrong.

 

Now a supervised practice session or a Playing lesson is a different story.

 

 

 

Maybe the disconnect for me is just from my personal experience.  Does 4-6 weeks hold true even for a new student making a big change?  Take a look at the photo below.  This was me at the top of the backswing at the start of the lesson and then after making the initial change with the instructor.

Recall that I asked for this photo; it was my idea.  Without it, all I had from my lesson was the crazy strange new feeling like I was totally standing up at the top of the backswing.  After the lesson I couldn't practice this at the range very well because I had no mirror, so I really had to video myself to see if I was doing what I felt like I was doing.  Mostly I just used ball flight/contact as a metric.  When I got to the top well, I generally hit a pretty effortless shot that went much higher than my ball used to.  I held on to these new feels for about a week and a half before I lost it.  In retrospect, I think that noodle was also keeping me from swaying back, and that on my own I started swaying back, which compromised contact (but I could be wrong).  I had total confidence in this change and I worked my as$ off to try to get it back, but I never did.  Should I have waited 6 weeks, or asked for help? 

 

In retrospect, I would have gladly paid to be retold the same thing and save myself the frustration of being lost.  Sincerely, just to know I was on the right track or not seems valuable.  I'm not sure every student is looking for a new change each lesson.  I watched the Butch video and heard that swing changes can take 6 months.  I'm not suggesting that I've either fixed the swing in 2 weeks or haven/t.  I am saying that in two weeks I may feel like either I'm on the right track, or I'm totally lost, and if I'm totally lost, waiting another month seems less than ideal...  Just guided practice and maybe course correction if I'm on the wrong track seems worth the money when you're really trying to improve and minimize wasted time and frustration.

Edited January 21, 2021 by bonvivantva

[golfsticks]

9 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

2 weeks later you’re paying me to watch you hit balls and say the same thing.

 

While drinking a glass of lemonade. 

[tm3]

2 hours ago, bonvivantva said:

 

Maybe the disconnect for me is just from my personal experience.  Does 4-6 weeks hold true even for a new student making a big change?  Take a look at the photo below.  This was me at the top of the backswing at the start of the lesson and then after making the initial change with the instructor.

Recall that I asked for this photo; it was my idea.  Without it, all I had from my lesson was the crazy strange new feeling like I was totally standing up at the top of the backswing.  After the lesson I couldn't practice this at the range very well because I had no mirror, so I really had to video myself to see if I was doing what I felt like I was doing.  Mostly I just used ball flight/contact as a metric.  When I got to the top well, I generally hit a pretty effortless shot that went much higher than my ball used to.  I held on to these new feels for about a week and a half before I lost it.  In retrospect, I think that noodle was also keeping me from swaying back, and that on my own I started swaying back, which compromised contact (but I could be wrong).  I had total confidence in this change and I worked my as$ off to try to get it back, but I never did.  Should I have waited 6 weeks, or asked for help? 

 

In retrospect, I would have gladly paid to be retold the same thing and save myself the frustration of being lost.  Sincerely, just to know I was on the right track or not seems valuable.  I'm not sure every student is looking for a new change each lesson.  I watched the Butch video and heard that swing changes can take 6 months.  I'm not suggesting that I've either fixed the swing in 2 weeks or haven/t.  I am saying that in two weeks I may feel like either I'm on the right track, or I'm totally lost, and if I'm totally lost, waiting another month seems less than ideal...  Just guided practice and maybe course correction if I'm on the wrong track seems worth the money when you're really trying to improve and minimize wasted time and frustration.

 

I got a chuckle from your photos as your "before" position and "after" position are pretty much reversals of what the last instructor that I saw advocated in his series of lessons -- I was more like your "after" going in and he worked on getting me to swing flatter, pin my elbow back against my side and "swing out to right field."  That season, and much of the next, was a disaster.  Which I think is an important corollary to the Butch H comment -- first find an instructor that knows what he is talking about.

[BogeyBrian]

17 hours ago, Krt22 said:

Good ones don't. And some folks have a long term relationship with an instructor, so it might just be a quite look/tune make sure things are moving in the right direction. 

Ha. Funny you say that. My first video lesson with Monte was a few years ago. 

 

He had me working on how my hips turn...i sent him another video the next day "is this better???"

 

He said no ...haha didnt charge me and told me it takes longer than a day...work on it and send another video with this one being credited....

 

Bringing in realistic expectations to change is the only way i have gotten better at golf. went 10 years being a double digit handicap with no improvement even though i put in the "work" last 3 years im around a 3-5 hc working on uncomfortable long changes. 

 

Now if i can only bring this attitude to losing weight as i am quite portly hehee

[bonvivantva]

14 minutes ago, tm3 said:

 

I got a chuckle from your photos as your "before" position and "after" position are pretty much reversals of what the last instructor that I saw advocated in his series of lessons -- I was more like your "after" going in and he worked on getting me to swing flatter, pin my elbow back against my side and "swing out to right field."  That season, and much of the next, was a disaster.  Which I think is an important corollary to the Butch H comment -- first find an instructor that knows what he is talking about.

The guy I saw is a golf digest top 50 in my state instructor.  I've only seen him twice (mostly because of covid), but I have confidence in his abilities.  I don't have a video, but I was losing a lot of height in the backswing, and sucking the club way inside.  The after picture may not be an ideal position, I wouldn't know, but I do believe it was an improvement on where I started.  Any any event, I think this instructor is better than most, and I don't want to hijack the thread.

 

4 minutes ago, BogeyBrian said:

He had me working on how my hips turn...i sent him another video the next day "is this better???"

 

He said no ...haha didnt charge me and told me it takes longer than a day...work on it and send another video with this one being credited....

 

I can understand instructors being frustrated that people expect immediate results.  I think the point I'm trying to make is that from a student perspective, improving at golf takes a lot of time and money.  We just want to be more efficient at improving, and knowing we're on the right track helps us not to be as frustrated or demoralized.  I think it's easy to say students are impatient and lazy with unreasonable expectations, but really I think at least for me, it's more about confidence and knowing you're headed in a good direction, not wasting your time.  The whole reason I started lessons was that I was spending a ton of time and energy practicing, but I was not seeing any improvement.  I'm willing to put in the work, I just want to make sure there will be some, even if marginal benefit eventually.

[Krt22]

2 hours ago, bonvivantva said:

 

Maybe the disconnect for me is just from my personal experience.  Does 4-6 weeks hold true even for a new student making a big change?  Take a look at the photo below.  This was me at the top of the backswing at the start of the lesson and then after making the initial change with the instructor.

Recall that I asked for this photo; it was my idea.  Without it, all I had from my lesson was the crazy strange new feeling like I was totally standing up at the top of the backswing.  After the lesson I couldn't practice this at the range very well because I had no mirror, so I really had to video myself to see if I was doing what I felt like I was doing.  Mostly I just used ball flight/contact as a metric.  When I got to the top well, I generally hit a pretty effortless shot that went much higher than my ball used to.  I held on to these new feels for about a week and a half before I lost it.  In retrospect, I think that noodle was also keeping me from swaying back, and that on my own I started swaying back, which compromised contact (but I could be wrong).  I had total confidence in this change and I worked my as$ off to try to get it back, but I never did.  Should I have waited 6 weeks, or asked for help? 

 

In retrospect, I would have gladly paid to be retold the same thing and save myself the frustration of being lost.  Sincerely, just to know I was on the right track or not seems valuable.  I'm not sure every student is looking for a new change each lesson.  I watched the Butch video and heard that swing changes can take 6 months.  I'm not suggesting that I've either fixed the swing in 2 weeks or haven/t.  I am saying that in two weeks I may feel like either I'm on the right track, or I'm totally lost, and if I'm totally lost, waiting another month seems less than ideal...  Just guided practice and maybe course correction if I'm on the wrong track seems worth the money when you're really trying to improve and minimize wasted time and frustration.

Where you taking video the whole time? If not, you more than likely simply relapsed and were back to your old position. It's more than just the noodle, it's just that your subconscious is very strong and rewiring a motor pattern very difficult. When you think you have it, you really don't, feel alone is extremely deceiving. For some reason this becomes even easier when you aren't being supervised by an instructor. I have similar backswing issues and can literally relapse in a matter of a view swings if I am not concentrating on exaggerating the feel or being diligent with video. The whole "play more golf" adage that you here on here sometimes is actually terrible for me personally

[Krt22]

8 hours ago, DaveMc82 said:

Big difference between someone worth seeing and someone not is having clear direction on what/how to work on until the next lesson.
 

There’s a really annoying trait amongst some instructors where they’re not honest with you as a client. Those of us who want to raise their baseline incrementally over time don’t want their faults fixed by the introduction of compensating faults.
 

Short term ‘fixes’ that create different issues instead of narrowing your window are the next biggest money spinner in amateur golf after driver sales. 

I'm sure there are bad instructors who do this, but I would say there are more likely the byproduct of countless more students looking for that lighting in a bottle that is going to solve all of their faults with one lesson and a bucket of balls. Too many golfers blame instructors for their short comings as bad students. You see them in here all the time, post a swing, ask for advice, then promptly ignore or down right argue with top tier instructors. There are quite a few disillusioned golfers (plenty who are on here) who think you can make dramatic improvements to your game without dramatically changing your swing, most are likely in the "you don't hit the ball in the backswing" crowd.

[Krt22]

8 hours ago, DaveMc82 said:

Big difference between someone worth seeing and someone not is having clear direction on what/how to work on until the next lesson.
 

There’s a really annoying trait amongst some instructors where they’re not honest with you as a client. Those of us who want to raise their baseline incrementally over time don’t want their faults fixed by the introduction of compensating faults.
 

Short term ‘fixes’ that create different issues instead of narrowing your window are the next biggest money spinner in amateur golf after driver sales. 

Double post

Edited January 21, 2021 by Krt22

[MK7Golf21]

Agree with what others have said but something has to be said about the mental side from taking a lesson as well. Technique aside, for example when you set up a plane ticket, fly to a lesson and pay couple hundred to work on your swing there is definitely more focus and will to play good when you play again because of the effort you put into improving. Gives you sort of a confidence that you should be playing better and you do until it wears off in two weeks. Just something I have noticed on the mental side of things.

[bonvivantva]

20 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Where you taking video the whole time? If not, you more than likely simply relapsed and were back to your old position. It's more than just the noodle, it's just that your subconscious is very strong and rewiring a motor pattern very difficult. When you think you have it, you really don't, feel alone is extremely deceiving. For some reason this becomes even easier when you aren't being supervised by an instructor. I have similar backswing issues and can literally relapse in a matter of a view swings if I am not concentrating on exaggerating the feel or being diligent with video. The whole "play more golf" adage that you here on here sometimes is actually terrible for me personally

I hate taking video and as a result, I don't do it often.  You're definitely right about the relapse.  Like I said, I managed to keep the better backswing for about a week and a half and then just lost it.  I even bought a box that holds alignment rods (for hitting off mats) so I could try to recreate that aid, but even that didn't work.  Every once in a while I'd start to find it again and it was like magic, but I could never get it to last.  Video is definitely how I know I'd relapse though.  When I would struggle, I might not video my swing, but there were days when I'd hit 200 balls and not hit a single decent shot.  That's when I'll look to video for anything obvious, and usually I'd see that even if I wasn't dipping down as much, the top of my backswing definitely looked more like the before than the after.  

 

I would say that they have likely been weeks, maybe 20 hours of practice in a row, in which I've relapsed without realizing it, which means no matter what I tried, I just couldn't get solid contact.  Even when I do review video, it's not always obvious that I've relapsed.  Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes its as bad as the picture I posted.  That's really why I was surprised to hear 4-6 weeks is ideal between lessons.  Do students generally come back in 4-6 weeks having incorporated the swing changes you worked on in the previous lesson, at which point you move on to new problems?  In my mind, more often than not, it would take a lesson or three for a student to learn even one new concept.  Golf is hard and failure is part of progress.  You'd think you'd send student off on their own and more often than not, they'd need more guidance before they enjoy any success.

[MonteScheinblum]

3 hours ago, bonvivantva said:

 

Maybe the disconnect for me is just from my personal experience.  Does 4-6 weeks hold true even for a new student making a big change?  Take a look at the photo below.  This was me at the top of the backswing at the start of the lesson and then after making the initial change with the instructor.

Recall that I asked for this photo; it was my idea.  Without it, all I had from my lesson was the crazy strange new feeling like I was totally standing up at the top of the backswing.  After the lesson I couldn't practice this at the range very well because I had no mirror, so I really had to video myself to see if I was doing what I felt like I was doing.  Mostly I just used ball flight/contact as a metric.  When I got to the top well, I generally hit a pretty effortless shot that went much higher than my ball used to.  I held on to these new feels for about a week and a half before I lost it.  In retrospect, I think that noodle was also keeping me from swaying back, and that on my own I started swaying back, which compromised contact (but I could be wrong).  I had total confidence in this change and I worked my as$ off to try to get it back, but I never did.  Should I have waited 6 weeks, or asked for help? 

 

In retrospect, I would have gladly paid to be retold the same thing and save myself the frustration of being lost.  Sincerely, just to know I was on the right track or not seems valuable.  I'm not sure every student is looking for a new change each lesson.  I watched the Butch video and heard that swing changes can take 6 months.  I'm not suggesting that I've either fixed the swing in 2 weeks or haven/t.  I am saying that in two weeks I may feel like either I'm on the right track, or I'm totally lost, and if I'm totally lost, waiting another month seems less than ideal...  Just guided practice and maybe course correction if I'm on the wrong track seems worth the money when you're really trying to improve and minimize wasted time and frustration.

You mean like this?😜

 

That lesson was on October 20th or 21st.  He just came back last week after spending 3 months ingraining that backswing change.  It was great and we moved on to the next step.
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGp2sqnFAkF/?igshid=1eg4g5x9jqn4c

[Krt22]

15 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

I hate taking video and as a result, I don't do it often.  You're definitely right about the relapse.  Like I said, I managed to keep the better backswing for about a week and a half and then just lost it.  I even bought a box that holds alignment rods (for hitting off mats) so I could try to recreate that aid, but even that didn't work.  Every once in a while I'd start to find it again and it was like magic, but I could never get it to last.  Video is definitely how I know I'd relapse though.  When I would struggle, I might not video my swing, but there were days when I'd hit 200 balls and not hit a single decent shot.  That's when I'll look to video for anything obvious, and usually I'd see that even if I wasn't dipping down as much, the top of my backswing definitely looked more like the before than the after.  

 

I would say that they have likely been weeks, maybe 20 hours of practice in a row, in which I've relapsed without realizing it, which means no matter what I tried, I just couldn't get solid contact.  Even when I do review video, it's not always obvious that I've relapsed.  Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes its as bad as the picture I posted.  That's really why I was surprised to hear 4-6 weeks is ideal between lessons.  Do students generally come back in 4-6 weeks having incorporated the swing changes you worked on in the previous lesson, at which point you move on to new problems?  In my mind, more often than not, it would take a lesson or three for a student to learn even one new concept.  Golf is hard and failure is part of progress.  You'd think you'd send student off on their own and more often than not, they'd need more guidance before they enjoy any success.

Hitting 200 balls without feedback is a big problem, all you are doing in that time is grooving compensations. I am not an instructor so can't comment lesson spacing, but I am myself a bad student and have big relapses because I start going too much on ball flight. If you are practice enough, you can learn to hit good shots from bad positions, you just wont be able to do it consistently. Realistically our swings don't change much without really focused effort, the only thing that changes day to day is how well you compensate. With that being said I have been battling the same core flaw for 2+ years now and don't expect to not worry about it anytime soon.

[bonvivantva]

39 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

You mean like this?😜

 

That lesson was on October 20th or 21st.  He just came back last week after spending 3 months ingraining that backswing change.  It was great and we moved on to the next step.
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGp2sqnFAkF/?igshid=1eg4g5x9jqn4c

Lol, yes.  Even the swing speed numbers look familiar...  I'm glad he got it figured out.  I'm not so sure I have.

 

34 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Hitting 200 balls without feedback is a big problem, all you are doing in that time is grooving compensations. I am not an instructor so can't comment lesson spacing, but I am myself a bad student and have big relapses because I start going too much on ball flight. If you are practice enough, you can learn to hit good shots from bad positions, you just wont be able to do it consistently. Realistically our swings don't change much without really focused effort, the only thing that changes day to day is how well you compensate. With that being said I have been battling the same core flaw for 2+ years now and don't expect to not worry about it anytime soon.

I certainly agree with you, which is why I finally broke down and got lessons.  We'll, that's half of it.  I shot a person best twice over the summer/fall.  That was with that crazy looking inside path and dip down move.  87, then an 82.  I had a lot of my typical scores in that same time period, mid-high 90s.  I never thought my swing was better than usual, just like you said, I was playing more and I was just getting better at compensating.  Not a long term strategy, nor a path to consistency.  I decided to get lessons because with covid, I finally have the time to practice and play enough to justify lessons.  The change I was shown felt weird, but also great.  The swing felt easy or smooth instead of crazy and violent.  As someone that has definitely put in the time and effort, and totally bought in to what I was instructed to do, I just still find it hard to believe that it's best to wait 6 weeks to check in again with the instructor.  I think the ability to have some more guidance and ask some more questions would have saved me a lot of time and effort.  In the spring, the instructor I saw will be able to start outdoor lessons again, which should allow him a lot more availability.  I'm hoping to start lessons again.  I'll ask him for this opinion about time between lessons, but if I'm being honest, I'm still going to have trouble accepting an answer thats more than say 3 weeks apart.  I'm just so tired of having no idea if I'm on the right track or not.

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by bonvivantva

[virtuoso]

For an amateur, the mental commitment it takes to make a change fundamental to their swing is underestimated by 10x. By that I mean a change that takes place while hitting a golf ball on the course when the golfer cares where it goes. It is a breathtaking mental challenge.

[MonteScheinblum]

There’s a balance here that’s very important.  The instructor is there to guide you, but he won’t be there on the first tee holding your hand.

 

The instructor sets the guidelines and your job is to figure it out how it works for you.  Most learning happens between lessons, not during them.  You still have to dig it out of the dirt, but good lessons reduce wasted time and effort you don’t have.

 

Think of it this way.  You’re lost in the middle of nowhere.  The instructor doesn’t take you by the hand and lead you back to town.  He gives you a compass and a map and you find your way back.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 minute ago, virtuoso said:

For an amateur, the mental commitment it takes to make a change fundamental to their swing is underestimated by 10x. By that I mean a change that takes place while hitting a golf ball on the course when the golfer cares where it goes. It is a breathtaking mental challenge.

100%

[virtuoso]

1 minute ago, MonteScheinblum said:

There’s a balance here that’s very important.  The instructor is there to guide you, but he won’t be there on the first tee holding your hand.

 

The instructor sets the guidelines and your job is to figure it out how it works for you.  Most learning happens between lessons, not during them.  You still have to dig it out of the dirt, but good lessons reduce wasted time and effort you don’t have.

 

Think of it this way.  You’re lost in the middle of nowhere.  The instructor doesn’t take you by the hand and lead you back to town.  He gives you a compass and a map and you find your way back.

With the caveat that you give him a compass and he is heading east, and you want him to head north. And he says, turn left? And you say yes. And then you say:

more left

more left

more left

now, really turn left

and more left

[wagolfer7]

3 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

There’s a balance here that’s very important.  The instructor is there to guide you, but he won’t be there on the first tee holding your hand.

 

The instructor sets the guidelines and your job is to figure it out how it works for you.  Most learning happens between lessons, not during them.  You still have to dig it out of the dirt, but good lessons reduce wasted time and effort you don’t have.

 

Think of it this way.  You’re lost in the middle of nowhere.  The instructor doesn’t take you by the hand and lead you back to town.  He gives you a compass and a map and you find your way back.

 

Yah and all we do then is use "YouTube" on how to read a map and use a compass 🙂 

[SwingBlues]

2 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

Yah and all we do then is use "YouTube" on how to read a map and use a compass 🙂 

 

Do you blame them? Considering the education system is so bad... what's a "map", what's a "compass"?!?!? Better google that one...

[Krt22]

16 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

Lol, yes.  Even the swing speed numbers look familiar...  I'm glad he got it figured out.  I'm not so sure I have.

 

I certainly agree with you, which is why I finally broke down and got lessons.  We'll, that's half of it.  I shot a person best twice over the summer/fall.  That was with that crazy looking inside path and dip down move.  87, then an 82.  I had a lot of my typical scores in that same time period, mid-high 90s.  I never thought my swing was better than usual, just like you said, I was playing more and I was just getting better at compensating.  Not a long term strategy, nor a path to consistency.  I decided to get lessons because with covid, I finally have the time to practice and play enough to justify lessons.  The change I was shown felt weird, but also great.  The swing felt easy or smooth instead of crazy and violent.  As someone that has definitely put in the time and effort, and totally bought in to what I was instructed to do, I just still find it hard to believe that it's best to wait 6 weeks to check in again with the instructor.  I think the ability to have some more guidance and ask some more questions would have saved me a lot of time and effort.  In the spring, the instructor I saw will be able to start outdoor lessons again, which should allow him a lot more availability.  I'm hoping to start lessons again.  I'll ask him for this opinion about time between lessons, but if I'm being honest, I'm still going to have trouble accepting an answer thats more than say 3 weeks apart.  I'm just so tired of having no idea if I'm on the right track or not.

 

I would highly suggest setting up a relationship with an instructor where you can send check up videos in between lessons. It's essentially what Monte's game improvement plan is (which is fantastic), but many other instructors are fine with this if you are committing to a multi-lesson pack and have clear goals established. 

[MonteScheinblum]

10 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

With the caveat that you give him a compass and he is heading east, and you want him to head north. And he says, turn left? And you say yes. And then you say:

more left

more left

more left

now, really turn left

and more left

LMAO....so true.

[bonvivantva]

1 minute ago, virtuoso said:

With the caveat that you give him a compass and he is heading east, and you want him to head north. And he says, turn left? And you say yes. And then you say:

more left

more left

more left

now, really turn left

and more left

 

Given the analogy, realistically, what happens is one of three things.  The person just stands around (not practicing or playing enough), the person walks in a direction that gets them closer to the destination, or the person walks in a direction that puts them farther away from the destination.  

 

Even if I can't have learned or fully incorporated what I've been taught in two or three weeks, y'all have to see the desire to just know that the direction you're walking to towards and not away from the destination.

 

Now I know someone is going to say what I should be doing in walking in each direction until I can see if the destination is on the horizon.  That's just how improvement works.  You have to exhaust failed options to find success.  But if the whole point of an instructor is to improve more efficiently, maybe there is something to having that person double check that you're not constantly going down the same wrong path, holding the map upside down, etc.  There are 360 degrees you can go, and an infinite number inbetween.  So that's a lot of possible wrong directions.  Then consider that there is no guarantee you won't make the same mistake twice...

 

2 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

I would highly suggest setting up a relationship with an instructor where you can send check up videos in between lessons. It's essentially what Monte's game improvement plan is (which is fantastic), but many other instructors are fine with this if you are committing to a multi-lesson pack and have clear goals established. 

This is essentially what I'm getting at.  I'm not saying I have the answers, or that a lesson once a week is ideal.  I'm just saying that no contact for 6 weeks is a hard pill to swallow.

[Hawkeye77]

18 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

There’s a balance here that’s very important.  The instructor is there to guide you, but he won’t be there on the first tee holding your hand.

 

The instructor sets the guidelines and your job is to figure it out how it works for you.  Most learning happens between lessons, not during them.  You still have to dig it out of the dirt, but good lessons reduce wasted time and effort you don’t have.

 

Think of it this way.  You’re lost in the middle of nowhere.  The instructor doesn’t take you by the hand and lead you back to town.  He gives you a compass and a map and you find your way back.

I expect a ride in a very nice convertible!

Edited January 21, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[CasualLie]

FWIW, my recent personal experience to echo theories here.

 

Monte's NCT came out in August?  So we are nearly six months in.  Keep in mind, when I go to the range, it is grass only and 50 balls.  It's a horrible deal for me given 150 balls is only a few $ more!  Sometimes I will go to 100 balls when I know I am going to hit 50 of them with a wedge about 50 yards just trying to work on that.

 

Month 1: watched the video, light bulb went off, ah...so that's the cast. The original NCT youtube was not detailed enough for me, and the zipper away drill was a mess for me.  This get to 7, get to 8, bump, cast stuff made a lot of sense.  I went to the range, 50 balls, grass only, and at maybe 1/2 - 2/3 speed worked on the sequence.   It was 3 practice swings in slo motion away from the ball, hit 3-4 balls at half speed focusing on sequence and trying to make reasonable contact, then 2-3 balls at 2/3 speed, then 1-2 balls just stepping away lining up a target and hitting a shot without much conscious effort.  Then start all over.  So out of 50 balls, at most 10 were normal speed shots.  Range at most 2x/week.

 

At home worked on this 5 minutes here and there almost every day slowly in a mirror.  I am also using the rotator aid at home to help get a good stretch.

 

When I played a round, more conscious effort on the sequencing than I knew I should, but I was focusing on getting those hands to 8 but keeping some width on left arm as I know my tendency is to suck hands inside, left arm on chest, and getting to 8 with a really flat swing.

 

Month 2: pretty much the same as month 1.  Range 2x/week, 50 balls only, lots of rehearsals, even more slow mo mirror work at home.  A little less conscious effort while playing.  Additional range 2x/week for chipping only to help keep the scores down.

 

Month 3: watching more AMG videos, really fixated on this idea of pelvic shift going back 1-2 inches, etc...tried to incorporate this at the range.  At first disaster, too much to think about.  So I switched to same routine, of 3 practice swings, 3-4 half speed balls, 2-3 with more speed, and 2 regular shots, but this time only working on weight shifts and that cast at 8.  No more thinking about getting to 7, bump, 2nd cast, etc...

 

Same slo mo mirror work at home.  This was a rough month.  Focusing on one thing and forgetting the other sometimes resulted in embarrassing steep swings.  Scores went up.

 

Month 4: pretty much the same as month 2, but towards the end of the month, started to let go of hyper focus on the AMG stuff and more on the NCT with a very particular effort on the bump before cast 1.  Only this time, I am exaggerating (so I think) that downhill surf feeling before casting.  Same practice routines.

 

Month 5: now the blend is coming together.  I am starting to get that shift back to target a little earlier.  Trying to over cast to 8, can't do it, but that is the feeling.  At the range, it is slowly working on get to 7 as I recenter, get that surf down going while getting to 8, cast...

 

Same routines.  On the course, really starting to show up.  Hitting a lot more fairways, a lot more greens.  Scores coming down significantly.

 

Month 6: just started, keep on working on same stuff as month 5.  Tournament season starting soon, time to grind on putting drills and fingers crossed my mental game does not ruin 6 months of work!

 

I know I still have a long way to go, but feel I have arrived at a routine of what to work on and just keep chipping away at tiny improvements.  The mirror work at home is key.

 

Now if I can just get those 40-60 yard shots dialed in for good looks at birdie....

[MonteScheinblum]

The other analogy I always use is weight loss.

 

If I went to a trainer and nutritionist and said, “I did what they said all week and I didn’t lose a weight......or I only went from 240 to 238 and I want to be 200......” without exception everyone would think I had lost my mind, but those are exactly the ways people react to their swing and game improving.  Golfers will be upset with themselves when a 30 yard slice goes down to 10 as they say, “It’s still slicing and I want to hit a draw.”  This is after 3 swings of trying a new movement.

 

 

 

I don’t take it as an insult, I react knowing there will be no improvement with that mindset.