The biggest reasons ams don’t get better. Butch Harmon...

[Sean2]

11 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Golfer really cares, but has zero coordination...zero....and I can only really help him so much. Heartbreaking....and I can't really tell him the truth without discouraging him.

This has to be particularly painful. In pretty much any other activity, if you put in the work, you will see improvement. This isn't always the case with golf, which simply adds to one's frustration. 

 

On a side note, anyone can develop a good short game. It requires neither youth, nor athleticism. And, a good short game can be a real stroke saver. 

[GoTime]

Most golfers dont get better because when they take lessons and try to implement changes their swing goes to s*** and their mediocre game (at best) goes off planet - they can't stomach or tolerate that drop off when they only play twice a month and it's supposed to be fun and go from shooting 80s to not being able to find the club face. They aren't going to spend 6+ months miserable when playing, and mot don't have the time to grind in the changes. Pretty simple IMO.

[agolfman]

On 1/20/2021 at 3:39 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

What struck me from the instagram post was Monte's point:

 

 

I'm trying to work on opening the hips at impact. I've tried a bunch of things, and nothing is really getting there. Worse, some of the things I'm trying not only feel weird, but feel bad. Which tells me I'm completely doing it wrong.

 

What struck me from watching an AMG drill was that I don't know how to turn my hips properly. By which I don't mean that I don't know how to turn hips, or have physical limitations turning my hips. It's that I've so ingrained my bad swing which uses my height and strength to develop clubhead speed but ends up in a stall/flip to square the clubhead that my brain has never actually learned to do it right.

 

And here I am trying to learn how to square the clubface using hip rotation with full swings. I'm liable to injure myself more than anything.

 

I don't have the "feels" in my brain of how to turn the hips, so any attempt I make at it will naturally feel weird. Especially if I'm trying to do it with a swing built for a half-dozen compensations, in a full swing, at full speed or even 3/4 speed. 

 

My next attempt will be this drill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDHNc4T4lb0

 

I think that's to try to teach the conditions around impact. Once I actually have the "feels" of what it should feel like, and it's not so weird, then I can start figuring out what else I need to do in the downswing to actually get there. 

 

Super thread and well said by both Monte and Butch.  Just wanted to add this for @betarhoalphadelta.  

 

This video points out that "incorporating" change is hard, and it mostly is.  But "executing" changes is a spectrum...some are easier to apply to a given swing than others.  "Incorporating" the change into your playing mechanics is where it's always pretty hard.  These are two different things.

 

Had the same hip issue last year and I remembered @MonteScheinblumsaying (many times) that you have to get to the root cause of where you do something wrong and this is soooo true.  That's where a coach can really help, if the right one comes along, that is.

 

Compare two changes and see if "incorporating" the change is harder than "executing" the change:

 

Change #1.  I want to strengthen my left hand grip.  Ok,. the "execution" of that change is easy, you just grip the club with a strong left hand.  Done.  Nothing gets in the way of that, except remembering to actually do it.  Let's now "incorporate" that into your game.  Well, you might have a month of low hooks waiting for you until you finally get your swing and timing to a place where you find out a pattern to share the club face properly again.  That's the "incorporation" part of the journey, it's always going to be the tough part, no doubt.  Sometimes, there's a "light bulb" moment, but their few and far between.

 

Change#2.  I want to open my hips at impact.  Totally different animal.  "Executing" this is going to be tough because it has other dependencies.  Probably quite a few dependencies.  "Incorporating" this change is tough, but constant in it's degree of difficulty as #1.

 

For me (and I suspect for many), I didn't have any awareness of a dependency.  Specifically, that there was a lateral slide occurring earlier in my downswing.  So you can be stuck wondering why "executing" this  one change is hard, after all, it's only one "feel" that you are trying to accomplish.  Forget "incorporating" the change, it'll never happen because it can't.  Physically cannot happen once you slide.  Because, once we slide, we're stuck with no way to actively open our hips until post impact.  Unless you have freaky athleticism...

 

In my case, once I committed to keeping my head position" behind the ball, I #StoppedtheSlide!  once the sliding stopped, I could get to the execution part of the change.  Weeks late, I figured out the "incorporation" part.

 

See if that's your problem on video and if there's anything else that is in the chain that precedes your desired impact position.  Or get a competent coach to see it.

 

So, this thread has me seeing that the closer to impact, the harder it is to execute and incorporate changes.  And at 100mph or greater, those things are amplified.  Not all changes are equal.  Hope you get it figured out!

[naval2006]

There are multiple factors for ams not to improve.  One of the key reasons is lack of time for good practice.  But all things considered, suppose you find a good coach you get along with (very very hard to happen, indeed). Now comes in play the students attitude to learn or not.  You notice children learn the game and teens improve with great Golf Federation instructors in a world foreign to adults.  The kids are athletic and all that; but they also listen and execute without questioning or discussing theory in detail.  

 

I was a language teacher for twenty years and I specialized in adults because they have a more intelectual approach to learning language, their learning curve is slower but they usually show a lot of determination a will.

 

Adults would show the same qualities when learning golf.  And this is usually a drawback more than helpful.  Trusting your teacher without questioning them is one of the keys to successful golf learning.  When you start discussing theory with your coach it will do more harm than good.  And there's a point in which the student is the dog and the coach, the obedience trainer.  If you as a student can't get into this context, learning to play well is probably not for you.  If you have a good coach and the relationship is healthy you'll take the coach as a guide.  Usually we adults have several mental barriers to reach this stage.

 

Finally, practice is the other key to improve.  I don't know if the practice-class ratio is 6 weeks/1 class, but what happens between class and class will determine the students fate.  A lot of commitment and mental and physical strength are at stake, and all the temptations to walk astray are only one click away on your mobile phone.  These days you can se adverts of gaining 30 yards with a 30 ball bucket or swing easy and hit it 280 or stuff like this.  Golf teaching is the biggest industry in golf so there's a lot of people trying to make a living offering the good, the bad and the evil to hordes of students in need.      

Edited January 22, 2021 by naval2006

[bonvivantva]

4 hours ago, Sean2 said:

This has to be particularly painful. In pretty much any other activity, if you put in the work, you will see improvement. This isn't always the case with golf, which simply adds to one's frustration. 

 

On a side note, anyone can develop a good short game. It requires neither youth, nor athleticism. And, a good short game can be a real stroke saver. 

I hope I'm not quite in that boat.  If I had to guess, I'd reckon I'm middle of the road in terms of athleticism, but wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong.  I think you're right on here, and it really highlights my point about 6 weeks.  If you are willing to put in the work, the last thing you want is to be wasting your time, or worse, getting worse.  Just some reassurance that you're on the right track can go a long way.  

 

3 hours ago, GoTime said:

Most golfers dont get better because when they take lessons and try to implement changes their swing goes to s*** and their mediocre game (at best) goes off planet - they can't stomach or tolerate that drop off when they only play twice a month and it's supposed to be fun and go from shooting 80s to not being able to find the club face. They aren't going to spend 6+ months miserable when playing, and mot don't have the time to grind in the changes. Pretty simple IMO.

I think far more people would gut it out if they at least knew the sacrifices they were making *could* pay off.  I know there are no guarantees, but when you've spent 10 years (or more in my case) failing to improve on your own, you lose confidence in your ability to figure things out on your own.  This is why I've been trying to highlight how more regular guidance, even if it does not involve new or further instruction, could really benefit most students.  I think this is especially true for mid-high handicappers, that is, the vast majority of am golfers.

2 hours ago, naval2006 said:

...Trusting your teacher without questioning them is one of the keys to successful golf learning.  When you start discussing theory with your coach it will do more harm than good.  And there's a point in which the student is the dog and the coach, the obedience trainer.  If you as a student can't get into this context, learning to play well is probably not for you.  If you have a good coach and the relationship is healthy you'll take the coach as a guide.  Usually we adults have several mental barriers to reach this stage.

I definitely agree with your sentiments here, but I'd add that trust is a two way street.  I don't think a student can just submit to an instructor, nor do I think would be a great idea even if possible.  I've had some instructors that I just didn't trust.  They weren't necessarily bad at their jobs (but some probably are), but even if they were good, they were a bad fit for me.  Right now, I think I've finally found a good instructor and I think it's a good fit.  I have bought in to his advice, and I'm doing my best to do what he has told me.  But even if you have full faith in your instructor, you won't have full faith in yourself.  If you thought you could do it on your own, you would.  So again, all I'm trying to say is that I think a lot of instructors could benefit from understanding that students need more than good instruction.  In order to stick with it when it's difficult or things aren't going well or even when they're just not sure they're doing what they were told to do, they also need reassurance.  I don't have an opinion about the ideal amount of time it takes a student to learn a lesson's worth of information, or incorporate a new skill.  I do have a strong opinion about the ability of a student to go 6 weeks on their own and maintain confidence, morale, and trust in the process and instructor.  Again, during this period I don't think I'd need new instruction or further instruction.  More of a checkup and maybe just a redirection, or if no correction is required, assurance to stick with it.  Maybe that can be generalized across most students, maybe not.  

 

Maybe if I can't keep the faith for 4-6 weeks, I'm a bad/impatient student, or I don't have what it takes.  But if the goal of instruction is to help as many as much as possible, you'd think we'd be trying to find a way to mitigate the doubt that can seep in during extended periods of solo practice.  

Edited January 22, 2021 by bonvivantva

[Therty]

1 hour ago, bonvivantva said:

 

Maybe if I can't keep the faith for 4-6 weeks, I'm a bad/impatient student, or I don't have what it takes.  But if the goal of instruction is to help as many as much as possible, you'd think we'd be trying to find a way to mitigate the doubt that can seep in during extended periods of solo practice.  

I think you’re over emphasising the 4-6 week target. 
 

think of it like this - you get a lesson, and take away 1 thought. Work that with some feedback (send a video) for 2 or 3 sessions, if it’s going well continue to improve upon it. If you're stuck or lost, book another lesson. 
 

i for one have about 2-3 practice sessions of “flounder” in me before i need a new look or more guidance. If I’m making progress sometimes it’s longer. Sometimes 3 practice sessions is 1 week, sometimes it’s 4. 
 

the coach who tells you that 4-6 weeks is a good time frame is right, as a general guideline, but you can always follow up and get a lesson sooner. I’d be more likely to trust that guy than the coach who says you need 2 lessons/week.

 

 

[ferrispgm]

I think some people are getting a little caught up on time frames and what it means to improve.  To me....true improvement is making your bad rounds better, having a potential for lower rounds, and your big misses tighter.  It's going from a bad round being 90 to being 88 or 85.  It's turning a 40 yard slice into a 20 yard fade. It's having the potential to shoot 65 when your previous best round was 70.

 

I've posted this numerous times but my bad rounds used to be in the mid 80s as a 3 handicap...no matter what it was there.  Now after 5 years my cap is a +2 and bad rounds are high 70s on some long tough courses...granted they feel like I'm shooting 90 but they are much lower.  Monte is right...you have to look at the big picture.  I still struggle every weekend on the range working on a change.  Depending on what i'm working on i'll hit a bunch fat or thin...or heel/toe.  It's hard but you have to ignore how you hit it on the range.  It's how you hit it on the course and to a much lesser extent, warming up before a round, that matters.  My lowest rounds have always come after a really bad round or a weekend of awful range work where I only hit a handful solid. 

[MonteScheinblum]

@ferrispgm

 

There are two issues at work here that everyone needs to understand.

 

1.  ”You need to get worse before you get better.”

That’s BS and the mantra of bad teaching pros.  If you get worse, the info was either bad or misunderstood and it’s the job of the pro to rectify it.

 

2.  The golfer needs to understand there is an adjustment period where it’s uncomfortable, strange and improvement is incremental and not linear.  There are ups and downs but the trend should be up.

 

If both of those issues are covered, the chance of long term improvement is 100%.

As far as the time frames that are overwhelming people, that’s not how long it takes to improve, it’s how long it takes for it to become the dominant pattern and feel.

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by MonteScheinblum

[Therty]

19 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

 

 

1.  ”You need to get worse before you get better.”

That’s BS and the mantra of bad teaching pros.  If you get worse, the info was either bad or misunderstood and it’s the job of the pro to rectify it.

 

 

Quoted for emphasis.

 

[Ty_Webb]

18 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

@ferrispgm

 

There are two issues at work here that everyone needs to understand.

 

1.  ”You need to get worse before you get better.”

That’s BS and the mantra of bad teaching pros.  If you get worse, the info was either bad or misunderstood and it’s the job of the pro to rectify it.

 

2.  The golfer needs to understand there is an adjustment period where it’s uncomfortable, strange and improvement is incremental and not linear.  There are ups and downs but the trend should be up.

 

If both of those issues are covered, the chance of long term improvement is 100%.

As far as the time frames that are overwhelming people, that’s not how long it takes to improve, it’s how long it takes for it to become the dominant pattern and feel.

 

So my thoughts on this are:

 

I have a tendency to suck it inside on the way back. My coach tells me that I should aim to have it going back straight. Then he puts the club where he wants it to be.

 

To me it feels like he's pulled it out at a 45 degree angle and I'm pointing it at about 1:30. Then he takes a picture and it's honestly shocking.

 

So I work at it for a bit and he tells me that's not enough, further out and so on and so on. Then my lesson is over and I've got something to work on.

 

The thing is, if I do it right, the feeling of "right" changes over time. Not perceptibly each swing, but eventually (hopefully), back square will feel like where I should be going and the club will look like it's pointing at 3:00. It's really hard to get any real time feedback without the coach there though. 

 

This is then where the coach says "I told him to take an aspirin and he took the whole bottle".  Now you're taking it back outside the line and have gone too far. 

 

I never know how long it needs to be uncomfortable and strange. 

[PracticeSwinger]

... and do instructors find it 'weird' that the vast majority of golfers (not WRXers obvisouly - as people hanging around here usually want to know as much as possible on the swing and game) couldn't care less about the causes of these instructions?... just tell me what I should do with my trail elbow - rather than getting to know a bit of the biomechanics behind it all as to why you want to be doing these moves...

 

Seems that when you start to talk about club focus (CoM, other), body motion (supination, else) and course management : 95% of the golfers don't even want to go there with preset replies of 'nah, just feel it swinging around - do you think Bobby Jones cared about angle of attack?!' ... and they continue to try and get better by just thinking about that trail elbow - without having a clue as to why their coach told them to work on this - and get frustrated when they don't see quick results

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

So my thoughts on this are:

 

I have a tendency to suck it inside on the way back. My coach tells me that I should aim to have it going back straight. Then he puts the club where he wants it to be.

 

To me it feels like he's pulled it out at a 45 degree angle and I'm pointing it at about 1:30. Then he takes a picture and it's honestly shocking.

 

So I work at it for a bit and he tells me that's not enough, further out and so on and so on. Then my lesson is over and I've got something to work on.

 

The thing is, if I do it right, the feeling of "right" changes over time. Not perceptibly each swing, but eventually (hopefully), back square will feel like where I should be going and the club will look like it's pointing at 3:00. It's really hard to get any real time feedback without the coach there though. 

 

This is then where the coach says "I told him to take an aspirin and he took the whole bottle".  Now you're taking it back outside the line and have gone too far. 

 

I never know how long it needs to be uncomfortable and strange. 

You have to monitor yourself with video.

[bonvivantva]

27 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

@ferrispgm

 

There are two issues at work here that everyone needs to understand.

 

1.  ”You need to get worse before you get better.”

That’s BS and the mantra of bad teaching pros.  If you get worse, the info was either bad or misunderstood and it’s the job of the pro to rectify it.

 

2.  The golfer needs to understand there is an adjustment period where it’s uncomfortable, strange and improvement is incremental and not linear.  There are ups and downs but the trend should be up.

 

If both of those issues are covered, the chance of long term improvement is 100%.

As far as the time frames that are overwhelming people, that’s not how long it takes to improve, it’s how long it takes for it to become the dominant pattern and feel.

 

While I've been working on this backswing change, my scores haven't changed much if at all, and I couldn't really say if I've gotten worse or better.  Fact is, I don't know if I've even made the change at all.  It feels like I've got a more upright backswing at the top, and pictures/video seem to confirm this, but I can't really tell with certainty.  If I have managed to modify my swing at all, I'm not sure it was as I was supposed to, but maybe I haven't significantly changed.  After a lesson you can do your best, but as people have pointed out, you aren't really qualified to self diagnose the degree to which you're adhering to the instruction you received.  4-6 weeks is a long time to waste, or even worse, ingrain something worse than you started with.  I guess students just need to be more proactive about reaching out when they aren't confident they're on a good track?

 

 

[Therty]

38 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

While I've been working on this backswing change, my scores haven't changed much if at all, and I couldn't really say if I've gotten worse or better.  Fact is, I don't know if I've even made the change at all.  It feels like I've got a more upright backswing at the top, and pictures/video seem to confirm this, but I can't really tell with certainty.  If I have managed to modify my swing at all, I'm not sure it was as I was supposed to, but maybe I haven't significantly changed.  After a lesson you can do your best, but as people have pointed out, you aren't really qualified to self diagnose the degree to which you're adhering to the instruction you received.  4-6 weeks is a long time to waste, or even worse, ingrain something worse than you started with.  I guess students just need to be more proactive about reaching out when they aren't confident they're on a good track?

 

 

You posted  great before and after image from your lesson. 

 

Does the backswing you see on video look like the "old" or the "new" at the top?

 

If it looks mostly like the new, and you can reproduce it effectively, then it's probably time for lesson #2. If it doesn't - why doesn't it? Are you stuck because you don't understand how to get into the position in the 2nd picture repeatedly?

 

If you can't answer the WHY in the 2nd question, then it's probably time for a 2nd lesson. 

 

The 4-6 weeks milestone doesn't matter in this instance, again it's just a rule of thumb. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Therty

[GLF4EVR]

37 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

@ferrispgm

 

There are two issues at work here that everyone needs to understand.

 

1.  ”You need to get worse before you get better.”

That’s BS and the mantra of bad teaching pros.  If you get worse, the info was either bad or misunderstood and it’s the job of the pro to rectify it.

 

2.  The golfer needs to understand there is an adjustment period where it’s uncomfortable, strange and improvement is incremental and not linear.  There are ups and downs but the trend should be up.

 

If both of those issues are covered, the chance of long term improvement is 100%.

As far as the time frames that are overwhelming people, that’s not how long it takes to improve, it’s how long it takes for it to become the dominant pattern and feel.

 

For me, Monte sums it all up right here.  Have enjoyed reading this tread.  I look at my swing as a continual work in progress.  I live in a small rural area.  I am old, so I am stubborn.  I like to learn for myself.  Due to work & where I live my golfing time is limited.  Last season was the first one in quite awhile where I could actually play complete rounds on the weekends.  Main thing I worked on last season was just trying to keep my body square at impact.  I was not shooting lower scores than I previously had, but was not having the big score rounds anymore.  My misses were not as far off as I had been.  I was giving myself more & better opportunities at birdie or recovering well to save par.

 

The only opportunity I have with where I live for lessons would be thru video.  I may eventually do that, but what has always helped me in the past is WRX.  I find the little things in articles like this for things to work on.  Best example is where I am at now.  I feel like I have been getting the upper body where I want it, but my consistency is still not what I want.  Not long ago I came across the posting of the motion diagrams of an am & a pro.  First time I watched it, I knew what I needed to work on.  I was not getting my hips in the right position at the start of the downswing.  So this is the one thing I will be working on next season.  I take the approach that Monte talks about......incremental changes.  Each season I try to just work on one or two things at the most.  As I go thru each season I have the ups & downs of what I am working on.  Just keep working on it and later in the season the work does start to show by the improvement in the ball strikes.  Again back to Monte.....the dominate pattern & feel.

 

Now could I have "learned" all of this much quicker from having lessons?  Yes I probably could have.  But having all the changes thrown at me at once would have been much harder for me to work on.  To me, incremental changes are the way to go.  Hope this doe not throw this thread off the track.  After Monte's post, had to toss my pennies in.......

[rondo01]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

You have to monitor yourself with video.

this, but my god you’ve still got to know what you’re looking for. I’m convinced subscription based approaches are the future. I believe I heard Dana Dahlquist talk about this on a recent WRX podcast - it’s just too easy to snap a video, shoot it to a coach and the coach give you the thumbs up or down, or a quick note about what should be happening. I realize this might be frustrating for coaches as their entire day could be spent answering these types of calls, but believe this paired with frequent online coaching, alongside infrequent in-person work is a way forward for many. I know I’ve gotten a ton more out of online lessons because they’ve been heavy in building concepts - not just giving a prescription for the Flaw of the Day.

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by rondo01

[MonteScheinblum]

22 minutes ago, rondo01 said:

this, but my god you’ve still got to know what you’re looking for. I’m convinced subscription based approaches are the future. I believe I heard Dana Dahlquist talk about this on a recent WRX podcast - it’s just too easy to snap a video, shoot it to a coach and the coach give you the thumbs up or down, or a quick note about what should be happening. I realize this might be frustrating for coaches as their entire day could be spent answering these types of calls, but believe this paired with frequent online coaching, alongside infrequent in-person work is a way forward for many. I know I’ve gotten a ton more out of online lessons because they’ve been heavy in building concepts - not just giving a prescription for the Flaw of the Day.

 

I have that.  Unlimited video checkins between lessons.

[rondo01]

1 minute ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I have that.  Unlimited video checkins between lessons.

sorry monte, that wasn’t directed toward your offerings 🙂

[leekgolf]

On 1/20/2021 at 1:22 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

It’s not lack of flexibility, athleticism or skill in the vast majority of cases.  

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKRsk8jlMyP/?igshid=lkobtkda2y7e

I also think we get lost. You give us one thing to do, but we aren't sure how do much else either. You may have given us one thing to do, but we can end up adding other things to and eventually forget what you asked us to do.

 

 

[MK7Golf21]

3 hours ago, ferrispgm said:

I think some people are getting a little caught up on time frames and what it means to improve.  To me....true improvement is making your bad rounds better, having a potential for lower rounds, and your big misses tighter.  It's going from a bad round being 90 to being 88 or 85.  It's turning a 40 yard slice into a 20 yard fade. It's having the potential to shoot 65 when your previous best round was 70.

 

I've posted this numerous times but my bad rounds used to be in the mid 80s as a 3 handicap...no matter what it was there.  Now after 5 years my cap is a +2 and bad rounds are high 70s on some long tough courses...granted they feel like I'm shooting 90 but they are much lower.  Monte is right...you have to look at the big picture.  I still struggle every weekend on the range working on a change.  Depending on what i'm working on i'll hit a bunch fat or thin...or heel/toe.  It's hard but you have to ignore how you hit it on the range.  It's how you hit it on the course and to a much lesser extent, warming up before a round, that matters.  My lowest rounds have always come after a really bad round or a weekend of awful range work where I only hit a handful solid. 

 

I too have had some of my lowest rounds after having trouble and I think it's because I resort to making my swing very simple for control, shove my hands forward, pick the club up and drop it on the ball is what it feels like but I know where its going every time. I have shot under par doing this and it's pretty much confirmed to me how to actually play to shoot a low score. 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, rondo01 said:

sorry monte, that wasn’t directed toward your offerings 🙂

I knew it wasn’t.  I was supporting your statement. 

[bonvivantva]

2 hours ago, Therty said:

You posted  great before and after image from your lesson. 

 

Does the backswing you see on video look like the "old" or the "new" at the top?

 

If it looks mostly like the new, and you can reproduce it effectively, then it's probably time for lesson #2. If it doesn't - why doesn't it? Are you stuck because you don't understand how to get into the position in the 2nd picture repeatedly?

 

If you can't answer the WHY in the 2nd question, then it's probably time for a 2nd lesson. 

 

The 4-6 weeks milestone doesn't matter in this instance, again it's just a rule of thumb. 

It's been about three months since my lesson, which is just due to weather and covid, not preference or anything.  When I video my swing, it does look like the after photo now, but it didn't for a while.  After the 1.5 week mark, I just kind of lost it.  I think (but definitely do not know) that I was getting too far inside/deep.  My backswing didn't look flat anymore on video, but I think without the alignment stick as a guide, I started sucking the club inside again.  So even though I wasn't losing height/dipping, I introduced new problems and still was struggling with ott/low pull hooks.  After seeing that the look at the top was close, at least to my untrained eye, I figured I either had a new problem or I wasn't quite doing what I'd be taught correctly.  I just kind of blindly did trial and error until some things started to work, but that's essentially what people that don't take lessons do.

 

So I agree with y'all that something online that involves check ins is ideal right now, especially given weather and covid for me.  And I also get that if you're getting things, you probably want to give yourself 4-6 weeks to ingrain/incorporate the changes.  But for someone like me trying to make a significant change in person, I think a little more frequency is not a bad thing, at least to start with.  It's easy to say just reschedule when you know you're lost, but it's not always easy to know if you're lost or just working through things.  Maybe better safe than sorry if you can afford the extra lessons?  And if you prefer or require online lessons, pick someone like Monte that does check ins.  Makes sense.

[ThinkingPlus]

One interesting aspect of this discussion surrounds the definition of progress.  Ultimately since golf is a score based game, the definition of progress must be lower scores.  However that is too simplistic really.

 

There are many ways to shoot score X.  You could slice/hook the ball all over the course, get up down from the cart barn/trash dumpster all day, and shoot score X.  Or you can have double digit GIRs, hit every fairway, and make nothing to shoot the same score X.  If you have struggled with ball striking, got a lesson, worked hard on improvements, and had the latter occur, you have made progress.

 

Easy, low stress score X with the potential for it to be a few strokes less is far better than a grinding, stressful score X that should have been far more.  Gotta keep perspective.

[Hawkeye77]

24 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

One interesting aspect of this discussion surrounds the definition of progress.  Ultimately since golf is a score based game, the definition of progress must be lower scores.  However that is too simplistic really.

 

There are many ways to shoot score X.  You could slice/hook the ball all over the course, get up down from the cart barn/trash dumpster all day, and shoot score X.  Or you can have double digit GIRs, hit every fairway, and make nothing to shoot the same score X.  If you have struggled with ball striking, got a lesson, worked hard on improvements, and had the latter occur, you have made progress.

 

Easy, low stress score X with the potential for it to be a few strokes less is far better than a grinding, stressful score X that should have been far more.  Gotta keep perspective.

Pretty much agree, but if I ever shoot 69 or below I won't care if it's low stress or wearing me to a frazzle!

[milesgiles]

On 1/21/2021 at 2:21 PM, bonvivantva said:

 

Maybe the disconnect for me is just from my personal experience.  Does 4-6 weeks hold true even for a new student making a big change?  Take a look at the photo below.  This was me at the top of the backswing at the start of the lesson and then after making the initial change with the instructor.

Recall that I asked for this photo; it was my idea.  Without it, all I had from my lesson was the crazy strange new feeling like I was totally standing up at the top of the backswing.  After the lesson I couldn't practice this at the range very well because I had no mirror, so I really had to video myself to see if I was doing what I felt like I was doing.  Mostly I just used ball flight/contact as a metric.  When I got to the top well, I generally hit a pretty effortless shot that went much higher than my ball used to.  I held on to these new feels for about a week and a half before I lost it.  In retrospect, I think that noodle was also keeping me from swaying back, and that on my own I started swaying back, which compromised contact (but I could be wrong).  I had total confidence in this change and I worked my as$ off to try to get it back, but I never did.  Should I have waited 6 weeks, or asked for help? 

 

In retrospect, I would have gladly paid to be retold the same thing and save myself the frustration of being lost.  Sincerely, just to know I was on the right track or not seems valuable.  I'm not sure every student is looking for a new change each lesson.  I watched the Butch video and heard that swing changes can take 6 months.  I'm not suggesting that I've either fixed the swing in 2 weeks or haven/t.  I am saying that in two weeks I may feel like either I'm on the right track, or I'm totally lost, and if I'm totally lost, waiting another month seems less than ideal...  Just guided practice and maybe course correction if I'm on the wrong track seems worth the money when you're really trying to improve and minimize wasted time and frustration.

 

 

Ive seen a lot of good golf played from the before swing.

 

none at all from the after swing..

[nitram]

If you're lost a few days after a lesson, by all means go back for another bite. If another few days go by and you're lost again on the exact same subject you have to evaluate your situation. Either the instructor is not explaining the lesson to your comprehension level or you have an issue with the change. As mentioned before, take notes, use your phone, and by all means get answers to any question you have while in the presence of the instructor. If you don't trust what the instructor is showing/telling you, then it's not gonna work and you will almost always revert back to what you were. I've said this before and still believe you have to have patience, trust, and get out of your comfort zone to make a definitive change. If you can't do that you are wasting your time and money.

[bonvivantva]

1 hour ago, milesgiles said:

 

 

Ive seen a lot of good golf played from the before swing.

 

none at all from the after swing..

I sure hope you're wrong about that.  Over the three months since that lesson, I've definitely been lost a lot, there is no question about that, but on occasion I can manage to get decent contact and good swing speed, and the results when I'm not lost are pretty encouraging.  Prior to that lesson, I doubt I ever carried a 6i much more than 160, and that's talking best case.  My swing speed on the 6i went from low 70s at best to mid 80s at best, and when I'm swinging well, it's not unusual to carry 175-180.  Now I'd certainly trade some speed for consistency, but my point is that no matter how hard I swung with that old swing, I could never carry more than 160.  If I carry 160 now, I assume I'm hitting it fat, early extending instead of rotating, etc.  

 

When I look at the left picture now, all I think about is doing everything in my power to keep the club from getting outside, and then at the last second standing up and throwing my hands, praying for luck.  

[golfsticks]

Another reason, and it may be one of the bigger reasons, is thinking a swing is a creature from another planet with habits never encountered before.    It's not, the real world reveals many secrets and applications to an open eye.

Using alignment sticks and pool noodles is one example.   They may make life more difficult for many,  in my opinion.  Many pros, mostly from an earlier era though, played offline finding inline.   Trying to stay online any error goes immediately offline, it has no choice, whereas playing  offline finding inline is relatively easy.

Watch a painter cut a ceiling.   They don't start at the ceilings edge and play online with the paint,  too risky, they start below the cut line and circle in toward that line from offline, stay on the line, then circle off it. 

 
Circling in toward toward a line is the variable, planes not allowed.   

 

[glk]

36 minutes ago, bonvivantva said:

I sure hope you're wrong about that.  Over the three months since that lesson, I've definitely been lost a lot, there is no question about that, but on occasion I can manage to get decent contact and good swing speed, and the results when I'm not lost are pretty encouraging.  Prior to that lesson, I doubt I ever carried a 6i much more than 160, and that's talking best case.  My swing speed on the 6i went from low 70s at best to mid 80s at best, and when I'm swinging well, it's not unusual to carry 175-180.  Now I'd certainly trade some speed for consistency, but my point is that no matter how hard I swung with that old swing, I could never carry more than 160.  If I carry 160 now, I assume I'm hitting it fat, early extending instead of rotating, etc.  

 

When I look at the left picture now, all I think about is doing everything in my power to keep the club from getting outside, and then at the last second standing up and throwing my hands, praying for luck.  

Which backswing swing looks more like this?
 

[bilbry57]

Monte,

This discussion really hits home considering the struggles I have experienced past 4 years.We live in an age where information is available at the push of a button. With golf there are millions of you tube videos on every aspect of the golf swing.  Once you look at a few google recognizes your a golfer and it starts suggesting other videos. Its the same for anything you search fitness, automobiles, etc etc.  It’s fascinating how they are able to control the content you see and ultimately your purchases.  My example is I had a lesson with you I was flexing my right knee in the BS You gave me 3-4 different feels to get more hip turn and load on my right side. If I remember correctly  you  stood down the line from me and had me turn my chest towards you and within 2 swings my motion  was better.  However instead of building on this I remember looking at another video on lack of hip turn then another and pretty soon my brain is cluttered with a whole bunch of swing thoughts and I get back to struggling with contact.  Some can look at different videos and incorporate information from multiple instructors but for me I think it’s a recipe for disease 

 

Just curious your experiences and any feedback. Below is Instagram you posted 
https://www.instagram.com/p/B1Rm1yVlnDp/?igshid=1ut97oy2aw5s1