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Last time out, on hole 13 (not that it matters...) I hit a suboptimal drive that ended up in a lower wet part of the fairway. My second shot I hit the top of the ball and drove it about 2” into the ground. I played it as free relief (not sure if that’s the right term) and dropped hitting 3.  Did I do the right thing?

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Yes, I was recommending that players think about their embedded balls in a way that includes the possibility of temporary water underneath.  That perception seems reasonable to me, and useful!  

This does not qualify for free relief as an embedded ball, because the ball was never airborne, so the answer depends on whether there is interference from temporary water and that is what needs to be

My point was the benefit of timing - being at or near the place when it happened makes the ruling easier.  I can't say how a referee would have ruled later when the "evidence" had disappeared, and als

This does not qualify for free relief as an embedded ball, because the ball was never airborne, so the answer depends on whether there is interference from temporary water and that is what needs to be assessed. The definition is: 

 

Any temporary accumulation of water on the surface of the ground (such as puddles from rain or irrigation or an overflow from a body of water) that:

  • Is not in a penalty area, and

  • Can be seen before or after the player takes a stance (without pressing down excessively with his or her feet).

It is not enough for the ground to be merely wet, muddy or soft or for the water to be momentarily visible as the player steps on the ground; an accumulation of water must remain present either before or after the stance is taken.

 

Rule 16.1a explains when relief is allowed, but in brief if stuff meeting that definition interferes with the lie, stance or area of intended swing, free relief is available, otherwise it is play as lies or take unplayable penalty relief.

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47 minutes ago, antip said:

This does not qualify for free relief as an embedded ball, because the ball was never airborne, so the answer depends on whether there is interference from temporary water and that is what needs to be assessed. The definition is: 

 

Any temporary accumulation of water on the surface of the ground (such as puddles from rain or irrigation or an overflow from a body of water) that:

  • Is not in a penalty area, and

  • Can be seen before or after the player takes a stance (without pressing down excessively with his or her feet).

It is not enough for the ground to be merely wet, muddy or soft or for the water to be momentarily visible as the player steps on the ground; an accumulation of water must remain present either before or after the stance is taken.

 

Rule 16.1a explains when relief is allowed, but in brief if stuff meeting that definition interferes with the lie, stance or area of intended swing, free relief is available, otherwise it is play as lies or take unplayable penalty relief.

If the player digs the ball out of the ground and there is water in the hole, was the ball in temporary water?

Edited by rogolf
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1 minute ago, Sawgrass said:

I’m sayin’, “Yes!”

And I would agree.  But be wary, "temporary water" may be short-lived.  I once had a player play two balls because he thought he was in temporary water on the 7th hole.  He approached me (referee) at the end of the hole to ask about it.  We immediately drove back to the scene so he could show me, and I agreed that it was.  Imo, timing was important - if he'd waited until the scoring area to have it resolved, the temporary water may have disappeared before a referee returned to the area.

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11 minutes ago, rogolf said:

If the player digs the ball out of the ground and there is water in the hole, was the ball in temporary water?

It's a really interesting question with no explicit guidance that I can identify. I see old softie Sawgrass has declared no penalty. I note that there was no relief available prior to the digging and, having dug it out, the ball is not touching or in an abnormal course condition so fails the test in 16.1a(1) first bullet, so I'd be referring this one upstairs to the folks paid the big bucks!

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15 minutes ago, antip said:

It's a really interesting question with no explicit guidance that I can identify. I see old softie Sawgrass has declared no penalty. I note that there was no relief available prior to the digging and, having dug it out, the ball is not touching or in an abnormal course condition so fails the test in 16.1a(1) first bullet, so I'd be referring this one upstairs to the folks paid the big bucks!

Obviously after picking the ball up or digging it out, it's not "touching or in an abnormal course condition", but it may have been before it was picked up or dug out. 😉  I'll suggest that this question has already been answered as yes by the RB, but can't immediately point to the answer in the 2019 Rules!

Update - see old Decision 25/3 and mapping summary - no change to the answer - definition of temporary water and Rule 16.4.

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27 minutes ago, rogolf said:

And I would agree.  But be wary, "temporary water" may be short-lived.  I once had a player play two balls because he thought he was in temporary water on the 7th hole.  He approached me (referee) at the end of the hole to ask about it.  We immediately drove back to the scene so he could show me, and I agreed that it was.  Imo, timing was important - if he'd waited until the scoring area to have it resolved, the temporary water may have disappeared before a referee returned to the area.

 

That's very interesting.

 

So if the referee arrived and the condition was no longer "temporary water", if it even was at the time, when you got back there and found it "dry" would you automatically rule that he wasn't in temporary water ?

 

Or would you query the player as to the conditions that were present at the time and take his word for it ?

 

I mean if a player wasn't sure his ball moved and called you for a ruling, wouldn't you ask him "Did your ball leave its spot and stop in another place or did it merely oscillate ?" and take his word about it ?

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32 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Obviously after picking the ball up or digging it out, it's not "touching or in an abnormal course condition", but it may have been before it was picked up or dug out. 😉  I'll suggest that this question has already been answered as yes by the RB, but can't immediately point to the answer in the 2019 Rules!

Update - see old Decision 25/3 and mapping summary - no change to the answer - definition of temporary water and Rule 16.4.

But the 25/3 scenario is notably different, water was immediately visible in the plug mark so I see no issues there, casual water (old language) relief was always available. So if your hypothetical extension to the question was with water visible before digging the ball out - like 25/3 - then I'm 100 per cent on board the free relief train.

 

But the OP, as subsequently fleshed out, says no water visible before the ball was dug out. And I (for one) certainly read your extension question as being about water becoming visible only after digging. So it is this temporal feature that, for me, makes this an unanswered question and an unclear answer. When the player moved their ball, if no water was visible anywhere before digging, IMO, there is no rule that permits that ball to be moved by the player. 

 

Compare this with another 'temporal' scenario that was recently dealt with by the USGA on their Facebook rules discussion page. Scenario: player's ball is in bad lie and player marks and lifts ball to take lateral unplayable relief; before dropping ball there is a suspension in play for rain; when play resumes the entire area is under temporary water. USGA ruling: the penalty counts.

 

I'm not suggesting that ruling is necessarily relevant to the current discussion, although it does have some interesting common ground. But I'm sticking with my intent to refer the question upstairs.

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18 minutes ago, antip said:

But the 25/3 scenario is notably different, water was immediately visible in the plug mark so I see no issues there, casual water (old language) relief was always available. So if your hypothetical extension to the question was with water visible before digging the ball out - like 25/3 - then I'm 100 per cent on board the free relief train.

 

But the OP, as subsequently fleshed out, says no water visible before the ball was dug out. And I (for one) certainly read your extension question as being about water becoming visible only after digging. So it is this temporal feature that, for me, makes this an unanswered question and an unclear answer. When the player moved their ball, if no water was visible anywhere before digging, IMO, there is no rule that permits that ball to be moved by the player. 

 

Compare this with another 'temporal' scenario that was recently dealt with by the USGA on their Facebook rules discussion page. Scenario: player's ball is in bad lie and player marks and lifts ball to take lateral unplayable relief; before dropping ball there is a suspension in play for rain; when play resumes the entire area is under temporary water. USGA ruling: the penalty counts.

 

I'm not suggesting that ruling is necessarily relevant to the current discussion, although it does have some interesting common ground. But I'm sticking with my intent to refer the question upstairs.

I agree with the USGA ruling, at the point in time the player lifted the ball there was no temporary water and no authority to lift except unplayable.  He could replace the ball with one penalty stroke under 9.4 and then claim temporary water, but he doesn't escape the one stroke penalty.

Returning to the plugged ball - if there was water visible in the hole when the player dug out the ball, I would provide free relief.

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1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

That's very interesting.

 

So if the referee arrived and the condition was no longer "temporary water", if it even was at the time, when you got back there and found it "dry" would you automatically rule that he wasn't in temporary water ?

 

Or would you query the player as to the conditions that were present at the time and take his word for it ?

 

I mean if a player wasn't sure his ball moved and called you for a ruling, wouldn't you ask him "Did your ball leave its spot and stop in another place or did it merely oscillate ?" and take his word about it ?

My point was the benefit of timing - being at or near the place when it happened makes the ruling easier.  I can't say how a referee would have ruled later when the "evidence" had disappeared, and also can't say if I, or another referee, would automatically take the word of the player - we need to make a decision based on all reasonably available information, which could/should include information from other players.  All the competitors have a responsibility to protect the field, and the referees, players and sponsors want the competition played within the Rules.  There is no automatic answer.

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If your plugged ball is in a soggy area (usually is) I’d say you have reason to believe it might be sitting in water.  And 16.4says:

 

If a player reasonably believes that his or her ball lies in a condition where free relief is allowed under Rule 15.2, 16.1 or 16.3, but cannot decide that without lifting the ball:

  • The player may lift the ball to see if relief is allowed

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

If your plugged ball is in a soggy area (usually is) I’d say you have reason to believe it might be sitting in water.  And 16.4says:

 

If a player reasonably believes that his or her ball lies in a condition where free relief is allowed under Rule 15.2, 16.1 or 16.3, but cannot decide that without lifting the ball:

  • The player may lift the ball to see if relief is allowed

 

 

You make a good point in referring to 16.4, if that is the action the player takes - it could be relevant. 

 

But we are outside the OP situation and discussing RO's interesting hypothetical. I think the circumstances that could permit relief are: water is visible in the hole the embedded ball makes before the player digs the ball out; or player thinks the ball may be in water but is unsure and follows the correct 16.4 procedure to test, by marking and lifting, and discovers water there. But if the player has simply lifted the ball without marking (as in the OP), if the player was using 16.4 then there is a 1 stroke penalty even if the player discovers the embedded ball has struck an underground spring. However, if the player has simply lifted that ball when there was no water visible and was not consciously and correctly following the 16.4 procedure........ 

 

Recapping: player is in soft, damp ground, not temporary water. Stroke on the head drives the ball straight down. If there is still no temporary water visible - ie no authority to lift - and player is not proceeding correctly under 16.4 (alternate authority to lift but with strings) then I still think the subsequent new information of some water starting to appear in the plug mark after ball removal raises a requirement to refer it upstairs. If upstairs is happy, I am too.

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10 hours ago, antip said:

You make a good point in referring to 16.4, if that is the action the player takes - it could be relevant. 

 

But we are outside the OP situation and discussing RO's interesting hypothetical. I think the circumstances that could permit relief are: water is visible in the hole the embedded ball makes before the player digs the ball out; or player thinks the ball may be in water but is unsure and follows the correct 16.4 procedure to test, by marking and lifting, and discovers water there. But if the player has simply lifted the ball without marking (as in the OP), if the player was using 16.4 then there is a 1 stroke penalty even if the player discovers the embedded ball has struck an underground spring. However, if the player has simply lifted that ball when there was no water visible and was not consciously and correctly following the 16.4 procedure........ 

 

Recapping: player is in soft, damp ground, not temporary water. Stroke on the head drives the ball straight down. If there is still no temporary water visible - ie no authority to lift - and player is not proceeding correctly under 16.4 (alternate authority to lift but with strings) then I still think the subsequent new information of some water starting to appear in the plug mark after ball removal raises a requirement to refer it upstairs. If upstairs is happy, I am too.

Yes, I was recommending that players think about their embedded balls in a way that includes the possibility of temporary water underneath.  That perception seems reasonable to me, and useful!

 

But irrespective of that, I recommend that those "upstairs" consider this when they get back to you:

 

19.2/4 – Player May Take Relief Without Penalty if He or She Lifts Ball to Take Unplayable Ball Relief and Discovers Ball Was in Ground Under Repair Before Dropping

If a player lifts his or her ball to take unplayable ball relief and then discovers it was in ground under repair or another abnormal course condition, the player may still take free relief under Rule 16.1 so long as he or she has not yet put a ball in play under Rule 19 to take unplayable ball relief.

 

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18 hours ago, dugue4 said:

Last time out, on hole 13 (not that it matters...) I hit a suboptimal drive that ended up in a lower wet part of the fairway. My second shot I hit the top of the ball and drove it about 2” into the ground. I played it as free relief (not sure if that’s the right term) and dropped hitting 3.  Did I do the right thing?

 

 

16 hours ago, dugue4 said:

There was no temporary water on the surface.  I don’t remember if there was visible water in the hole after I dug out my ball

 

Okay Dugue - 

 A lot more information is needed to make a complete ruling

(i.e how far still to green,

  details of next stroke ,etc , subsequent lie)

 

But Based on the information that you have supplied and based on no temp water.( My caveats)

 

Facts

1.IF There was no temp water then you were not entitled to free relief for temp water.

2. You were also NOT entitled to embedded ball relief.

 

By playing the ball from a different spot than the original embedded spot you have played from a wrong place.

The only rule that the

Committee can apply to your actions is 9.4 and penalize you 2 strokes under rule 14.7 for playing from the wrong place.

The right place is the embedded lie so where you played from is 'almost certainly" a  serious breach which if not corrected would mean disqualification.😱

 

(Subject to no other pertinent facts)

 

Edited by limegreengent
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So would I be required to play it from the embedded lie, or could I take it as an unplayable ball and a drop with a 1 shot penalty? (If I ever do it again)

 

also, hypothetically what if I were to do the same thing but off the tee? Would the distance from the tee into the ground count as a ball in flight?

Edited by dugue4
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6 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

Yes, I was recommending that players think about their embedded balls in a way that includes the possibility of temporary water underneath.  That perception seems reasonable to me, and useful!

 

But irrespective of that, I recommend that those "upstairs" consider this when they get back to you:

 

19.2/4 – Player May Take Relief Without Penalty if He or She Lifts Ball to Take Unplayable Ball Relief and Discovers Ball Was in Ground Under Repair Before Dropping

If a player lifts his or her ball to take unplayable ball relief and then discovers it was in ground under repair or another abnormal course condition, the player may still take free relief under Rule 16.1 so long as he or she has not yet put a ball in play under Rule 19 to take unplayable ball relief.

 

Agree, 19.2/4 is an important interpretation, but again, has no relevance to the facts presented so far. There is no mention of player taking unplayable relief and the player needed to have intent to use unplayable before lifting ball for this interpretation to apply.

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3 hours ago, dugue4 said:

So would I be required to play it from the embedded lie, or could I take it as an unplayable ball and a drop with a 1 shot penalty? (If I ever do it again)

 

also, hypothetically what if I were to do the same thing but off the tee? Would the distance from the tee into the ground count as a ball in flight?

You may take an unplayable ball penalty if there is no free relief.

 

Yes, embedded from a tee is sufficiently in the air.

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6 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

You may take an unplayable ball penalty if there is no free relief.

 

Yes, embedded from a tee is sufficiently in the air.

In addition, a ball anywhere in the teeing area, even after a stroke from that teeing area, may be lifted, played from anywhere in that teeing area including being re-teed, without penalty. In that case, you would not be depending on embedded ball relief. 

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23 hours ago, antip said:

This does not qualify for free relief as an embedded ball, because the ball was never airborne, so the answer depends on whether there is interference from temporary water and that is what needs to be assessed. The definition is: 

 

Any temporary accumulation of water on the surface of the ground (such as puddles from rain or irrigation or an overflow from a body of water) that:

  • Is not in a penalty area, and

  • Can be seen before or after the player takes a stance (without pressing down excessively with his or her feet).

It is not enough for the ground to be merely wet, muddy or soft or for the water to be momentarily visible as the player steps on the ground; an accumulation of water must remain present either before or after the stance is taken.

 

Rule 16.1a explains when relief is allowed, but in brief if stuff meeting that definition interferes with the lie, stance or area of intended swing, free relief is available, otherwise it is play as lies or take unplayable penalty relief.

 

Any idea why this isn't free relief ?

 

Explaining the new rule, the USGA wrote "This is an appropriate exception to the principle of playing the ball as it lies because having to play a ball that is stuck in soft or wet ground (whether in the fairway or the rough) should not be considered part of the normal challenge of playing a course."

 

Now I saw where it said the ball wasn't airborne (so not an embedded ball) but any idea why that would be ?

 

Surely a guy isn't going to take a stroke to purposely embed his ball so he can then get free relief. Not hardly free relief. help sos.gif

 

So our hero would lie 2 and now embedded; from which he now has to gouge it out of its pitch mark and no doubt play a really muddy ball for at least another couple of shots before he's on the green and can clean the ball.

 

Hardly seems like a "normal challenge of playing a course". shrug.gif

 

 

 

 

Edited by nsxguy

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5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Any idea why this isn't free relief ?

 

Explaining the new rule, the USGA wrote "This is an appropriate exception to the principle of playing the ball as it lies because having to play a ball that is stuck in soft or wet ground (whether in the fairway or the rough) should not be considered part of the normal challenge of playing a course."

 

Now I saw where it said the ball wasn't airborne (so not an embedded ball) but any idea why that would be ?

 

Surely a guy isn't going to take a stroke to purposely embed his ball so he can then get free relief. Not hardly free relief. help sos.gif

 

So our hero would lie 2 and now embedded; from which he now has to gouge it out of its pitch mark and no doubt play a really muddy ball for at least another couple of shots before he's on the green and can clean the ball.

 

Hardly seems like a "normal challenge of playing a course". shrug.gif

 

 

 

 

I can only say it was ever thus. 2019 liberalised access to embedded ball relief (big change was to extend relief to general area) but retained the requirement that the ball must be embedded in it's pitch mark (which can extend to a rebound or bounce) - that is, it must have travelled through the air.

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On 1/21/2021 at 6:17 AM, rogolf said:

My point was the benefit of timing - being at or near the place when it happened makes the ruling easier.  I can't say how a referee would have ruled later when the "evidence" had disappeared, and also can't say if I, or another referee, would automatically take the word of the player - we need to make a decision based on all reasonably available information, which could/should include information from other players.  All the competitors have a responsibility to protect the field, and the referees, players and sponsors want the competition played within the Rules.  There is no automatic answer.

 

As a referee I would take the player's word for it IF there was no reason for me to doubt it. Also the testimony of the other players of the group would have a bearing, and I do believe the player in question would have wanted them to be witnesses on the case.

 

FWIW, maybe the situation could be rebuilt. Push a ball into the ground and see if there is water coming out.

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19 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Any idea why this isn't free relief ?

 

 

Yes, here's the idea. A ball sent towards the ground equals a crappy shot and there is no relief granted for a crappy shot. Embedded ball is a different concept; a decent shot carrying xxx meters landing on soft ground embedding into it.

 

A huge difference between those two shots, don't you think?

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1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Yes, here's the idea. A ball sent towards the ground equals a crappy shot and there is no relief granted for a crappy shot. Embedded ball is a different concept; a decent shot carrying xxx meters landing on soft ground embedding into it.

 

A huge difference between those two shots, don't you think?

 

Yes, huge difference. I couldn't agree more.

 

But then I didn't write the blurb below, the Ruling Bodies did. And I agree with the below as well. coffee.gif

 

19 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Explaining the new rule, the USGA wrote "This is an appropriate exception to the principle of playing the ball as it lies because having to play a ball that is stuck in soft or wet ground (whether in the fairway or the rough) should not be considered part of the normal challenge of playing a course."

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Yes, here's the idea. A ball sent towards the ground equals a crappy shot and there is no relief granted for a crappy shot. Embedded ball is a different concept; a decent shot carrying xxx meters landing on soft ground embedding into it.

 

A huge difference between those two shots, don't you think?

Ye Gods! No free rules relief for a crappy shot? 'Embed' that one in the Rules and I'm discontinuing any rules officiating.

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18 hours ago, antip said:

Ye Gods! No free rules relief for a crappy shot? 'Embed' that one in the Rules and I'm discontinuing any rules officiating.

 

I appreciate the humorous approach but in this particular case such a crappy shot is crappy beyond normal failures and at least in the past there was no relief. I do believe this is still the case.

 

FWIW, I would gladly see that change embedded in the Rules. Unfortunately defining a crappy shot could be an obstacle...

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On 2/3/2021 at 12:56 AM, antip said:

Post Script: Official confirmation is now in. In the OP's ball driven straight down into soft, mushy ground scenario, even if there is no temporary water anywhere before the ball is lifted, if it appears after the lift then temporary water relief (16.1) is available.

 

Isn't that only half an answer ?

 

The OP didn't say anything about temporary water.

 

So if temporary water doesn't appear after the lift it's tough luck ?

 

Put it back into the original, embedded indentation and try to hit it ? Or take an unplayable ?

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6 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Isn't that only half an answer ?

 

The OP didn't say anything about temporary water.

 

So if temporary water doesn't appear after the lift it's tough luck ?

 

Put it back into the original, embedded indentation and try to hit it ? Or take an unplayable ?

It was a ps to discussion in the thread, not to the OP. If there is no temporary water after driving the ball straight down into the mushy earth, assuming the player has marked and lifted under 16.4, then no free relief is available. Player's options are to return ball to where lifted or take unplayable relief.

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    • 2021 FARMERS WITB & Equipment Photos- Links and comments
      We are back on the ground at the 2021 Farmers PGA Tour event. Please add you comments in this thread. Here are links to all the galleries:
       
      Special galleries:
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #1
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #2
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #3
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #4
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #5
       
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #6
       
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #7
       
      Cameron putters - Farmers 2021
       
      Odyssey 2-ball Ten - Farmers 2021
       
      Project X Even Flow RipTide MX & LX proto shafts - Framers 2021
       
      TaylorMade putter cover for Torrey Pines - Farmers 2021
       
      Sling Shot training aid - Farmers 2021
       
       
      • 47 replies
    • 2021 American Express WITB & Equipment Photos- Links and comments
      We are back on the ground at the American Express PGA event.
       
      Here are links to all the galleries:
       
      Cameron putters - 2021 American Express
      PXG Gen 4 prototype drivers - new putters
      UST Maymiya LinQ shafts - American Express 2021
      Mitsubishi Kaili & MMT shafts - American Express 2021
      Titleist TSi 2 & TSi 3 hybrids - American Express 2021
      TaylorMade putter cover for Palm Springs/Palm Desert - American Express
      New Aldila Synergy, Ascent & prototype shafts - American Express 2021
      Callaway Apex Pro iron, Epic Driver and fairway, Apex iron & hybrid - American Express 2021
      New Perfect Practice training aids - American Express 2021
      New KBS prototype shafts - American Express 2021
       
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