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Have there been any deep dives into how much game improvement irons help golfers?


roarkerandall

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6 hours ago, Myherobobhope said:

I think it’s different for different players... i think the sole plays a bigger role than people realize (it was certainly an eye opening part of my ball striking for me)

 

Different people miss differently... there is a reason a variety of irons are played on tour. 
 

There isn’t a specific answer for everyone on the iron front... people need to take the time to understand what they are looking for out of irons and then actually find what works... it’s not as simple as I’m a 5, I can play these... 

 

I think the best thing you can do is get on a launch monitor and look at your dispersion.

Sole design and bounce has a heck of a lot to do with it. Everyone has a different AOA. And like you said everyone needs to experiment and find out what works for them

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3 hours ago, BIG STU said:

Sole design and bounce has a heck of a lot to do with it. Everyone has a different AOA. And like you said everyone needs to experiment and find out what works for them

Also, get it on green grass... I was in love with the mizunos I got fit into until I hit them on real grass... They are still good! just not as good as when I was hitting them in a bay... My own error, and fortunately I only bought a pitching wedge!

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1.  Hit a bunch of clubs.

2. Whichever one you hit the best (defined mainly by ball dispersion & landing angle+spin) and enjoy the most is the one you buy.

 

My best golfing buddy and I both got fitted in the fall. He ended up with Wilson D7s and I ended up with Ping i210s. We are both around the same handicap. He simply hit those the best out of the 8 or 9 clubs he tried and I hit the Pings the best out of the 8 or 9 clubs I tried. Looks, fell and confidence at address is severely underrated IMO.

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10 hours ago, Myherobobhope said:

Also, get it on green grass... I was in love with the mizunos I got fit into until I hit them on real grass... They are still good! just not as good as when I was hitting them in a bay... My own error, and fortunately I only bought a pitching wedge!

I am also of the school of getting them on the course to see in actual play if they fit my game. There is a difference between driving range and golf course

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5W  --- TM V Steel Fubuki 60r

7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

9W--- TM V Steel Stock V Steel R flex shaft

Irons 5 thru PW TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R F

SW Callaway PM Grind 56* Modified Grind KBS Tour Wedge

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9 hours ago, Johnnypenso said:

1.  Hit a bunch of clubs.

2. Whichever one you hit the best (defined mainly by ball dispersion & landing angle+spin) and enjoy the most is the one you buy.

 

My best golfing buddy and I both got fitted in the fall. He ended up with Wilson D7s and I ended up with Ping i210s. We are both around the same handicap. He simply hit those the best out of the 8 or 9 clubs he tried and I hit the Pings the best out of the 8 or 9 clubs I tried. Looks, fell and confidence at address is severely underrated IMO.

Those last 3 is what it is all about in my book

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Driver--- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha--- Speeder 565 R flex

5W  --- TM V Steel Fubuki 60r

7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

9W--- TM V Steel Stock V Steel R flex shaft

Irons 5 thru PW TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R F

SW Callaway PM Grind 56* Modified Grind KBS Tour Wedge

LW Vokey SM5 L Grind 58* 04 bounce Stock Vokey Shaft

Putter Macgregor Bobby Grace Mark 4 V-Foil Broomstick

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4 hours ago, BIG STU said:

I am also of the school of getting them on the course to see in actual play if they fit my game. There is a difference between driving range and golf course

I think the biggest factor in all this is finding someone with expertise in fitting. I think it's possible to do it on your own, and I think it's possible to make an 80% fit work, but I think a good fitters simply sets you up for more success... It's a two way street, though... it helps to know what you are looking for and speak your needs. 

 

I think the biggest challenge is finding a competent fitter who has access to a ton of equipment... From my experience, there is a large difference between a good fitter and a great fitter, but I don't think a great fitter necessarily translates to retail success. It's an interesting paradigm, and I think it's going to be on the OEMs to solve it (based on just demo days, I'd buy Ping way before Callaway, just due to the experience with the rep on site).

 

I also think the question of "Which irons are best" is an interesting one, and even asking "what irons are best for me" can bring up some interesting wrinkles... Simple confidence in the irons in your hands is worth SOMETHING, as it enjoying the irons you are playing... Golf is a weird game, and I think people have a tendency to focus on "new" vs better when it comes to improvement. 

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13 Degree Srixon 3 wood Project X Black 6.5

19 Degree Sub70 939 Pro with Proforce V2

4 Utility Sub70 699u 22 degree Proforce V2

5-GW Srixon Zx5 with Project X 6.5

Sub70 286 54

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On 1/22/2021 at 9:37 PM, dvq9654 said:

This is entirely anecdotal and specific to me, but I’m a 1-3 handicap depending on how often I play. I’ve never played GI irons per se, but I do play Apex Pro, which are cavity backs and fairly forgiving.
 

Last year, for fun, I bought an old set of MP-33 just to try something new. While they’re great when you’re on, I’ll never forget a couple rounds when I just didn’t have my A game (more like my C game) while playing with the MP-33 set. Off-center shots ended up 20 yards short and would literally hurt my forearms. The game was considerably harder and I guarantee those same shots would have been much better with my Apex Pros, probably a couple yards short with a manageable chip.
 

My takeaway is, and this isn’t surprising:

 

1) Blades require a much more quality strike than GI

2) Most people, even low handicappers, are not good enough to strike a blade well enough on a consistent basis to get the best performance from a blade 

3) More forgiveness is generally a good thing. Yes, you may get some level of inconsistency (e.g., a flyer), but how often is that happening? I’d bet it’s less than the times a poor strike would cost you with a blade 

 

Not saying you should play a shovel, but most people, even good players, need the forgiveness a cavity back will providE

It would have been interesting if your experiment was a Ping G series vs your Apex Pros.  I bet the differences would have been very minimal.  I agree that there is a greater degree of help between a blade and a player's CB/GI iron vs a player's CB VS a GI iron.

 

 

 

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I love the people who say you should play blades because they will force you into becoming a better ball striker.  As if a sweet spot the size of a pea will magically correct all of your swing flaws and make you a great ball striker.

 

 

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Just now, ShowMe said:

I love the people who say you should play blades because they will force you into becoming a better ball striker.  As if a sweet spot the size of a pea will magically correct all of your swing flaws and make you a great ball striker.

 

 

If it were true everyone who played golf pre Ping Eye would be better balls strikers than those who use cb's after. I'm old enough to know that isn't true.

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All irons are the same for me unless I swipe across the ball ... SGI/GI = low fade, miss the green 15 to 30 yards right ... Blades = low shank 50 yards short and 15 to 30 yards right ... my bad misses are less bad with SGI/GI ... your mileage may vary.

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I've heard it said that "blades make your good shots better, cavity backs make your bad shots better." So which do you hit more of?

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OP, this is the same question I have asked many times. There are tons of anecdotal testimonials of it making a "difference". But a "difference" isn't a number and doesn't tell me HOW MUCH of a difference. It seems the response 15-20 yds always is in there somewhere along with "closer to the green instead of in the hazard". Excuse me, "penalty area" (stupid term IMHO).

 

All of the experts tell us that clubhead COG and clubhead MOI are the things that make a difference in how a clubhead can help a golfer be more accurate with distance and dispersion. I know the MOI of my MP5s is approximately 2100 G/CM² (about 300 higher than the lowest know MOI for an iron head) and the VCOG is .789 and C-dim is 1.1" from shaft center. With these clubs I maintain an 8 hcp while playing courses I have never played about 80% of the time. In 2019, I decided to get a set of JPX EZ irons, reshaft them and fit to my specs to see if an SGI club would really bring my scores down as everyone kept suggesting. The JPX EZ MOI is 3400 (within 300 of the highest known iron MOI), VCOG is at .845 (higher than the MP5!) and the c-dim is 1.65" from the centerline of the shaft. Also, the sole design of this clubhead had a good bit more bounce than the MP5 does and a good bit more offset.

 

I played and practiced diligently with these clubs for about 3 months. My hcp DID NOT go down, however, I was able to get around the course okay with them. I DID NOT see a drastic increase in accuracy or distance control. IMHO, the higher VCOG affected me the most because every shot I hit felt thin. Also, during practice time, I would occasionally hit balls near the toe or heel of the club to see if the flew better than what I have seen with my regular clubs. They had a bit more distance (not 15-20 yds) but were just as much off-line as my MP5s. I also have serious issues aiming the clubface when I have that much offset (8mm IIRC). Once it gets above 3mm, it always happens. I knew this going in, so I purposefully spent a large amount of practice time in an attempt to learn to aim the clubs better. It must be my eye dominance or something though, because I just could not get it down.

 

Now, with these two clubheads, we are talking about a clubhead MOI difference from almost as low as they go to almost as high as they go. So, the thought of maybe I should just try a players cavity with lower offset and a VCOG more close to home doesn't really fly because the clubhead MOI of those heads are virtually the same as the MP5s I currently use!

 

So, I'm in no way disputing anything anyone else has experienced, I'm just saying horizontal MOI, literally from lowest to highest, didn't mean a heck of a lot to my game, even when I didn't hit the center of the clubface. I'm playing what works for me and I urge all others to do the same and leave everybody else alone.

 

BT

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Not to answer the original question directly but I did an internet search on the types of irons the tour guys play.  According to a Golfweek survey only 25 to 30% of tour players play blades.  The vast majority play cavity back irons.  Also at the last tournament I attended in 2019 I was surprised to see most players play cavity back irons.  It's got to tell you something.

 

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My club pro once said getting a good score isn’t about hitting a perfect shot every time. It’s about recovering from and minimizing bad shots.
 

While attractive, blades and even for me CB irons don’t provide the forgiveness that my current strike needs in order for me to get the best scores I can get. 

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On 1/23/2021 at 8:05 PM, Johnnypenso said:

1.  Hit a bunch of clubs.

2. Whichever one you hit the best (defined mainly by ball dispersion & landing angle+spin) and enjoy the most is the one you buy.

 

My best golfing buddy and I both got fitted in the fall. He ended up with Wilson D7s and I ended up with Ping i210s. We are both around the same handicap. He simply hit those the best out of the 8 or 9 clubs he tried and I hit the Pings the best out of the 8 or 9 clubs I tried. Looks, fell and confidence at address is severely underrated IMO.

Ah man, I loved the Wilson D7's I tried out...consistently longer and with a noticeably tighter dispersion than the other irons I tried.  Same went for the equivalent level driver/woods.

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On 1/22/2021 at 12:36 AM, Aviador Naval said:

There have been discussions on this topic.  Every single Jan-Mar since Al Gore invented the internet.  Each year the topic sees tremendous advancement and hopefully this year will add to that body of knowledge.

 

Here’s what we know so far to be utterly inviolate fact:

 

1.  It is impossible to improve with GI clubs - you have to use MBs - with X7 shafts.  Otherwise, you simply can’t focus mentally or tell if you missed the sweet spot.

 

2.  ALL cavity back clubs are subject to distance dispersion of at least 5x the amount of MB clubs and all PGA wins with AP2, Eye2, etc were the PGA equivalent of Lance Armstrong not being caught doping.  Everyone knows they cheated - we just haven’t figured out how to prove it.

 

3.  MB clubs are impossible to hit - golf didn’t exist in its purest form before the birth of Karsten Solheim - anybody that uses a small-mid chassis MB/CB is either a poseur or a moron.  It is simply not possible that higher launching lower spinning clubs are not best for every single mammal capable of walking on its hind legs.

 

4.  The single most important element in scoring is the 0.0075% ball speed retention advantage provided by a GI/SGI club over an MB on off-center strikes.  The second most important thing is the 0.1746 degrees less curvature you get with balls hit out near the edge of the grooves.  These critical differences are simple, undisputed physics and if you aren’t taking advantage of them you’re an idiot.

 

5.  SGI/GI clubs will save your bacon when you stick the club into the ground 2 inches behind the ball at negative 8 degrees AoA.  But, you’re toast if you bring that sh!t with an MB or players CB.


6.  Since the Scots invented the game, every single poorly struck shot with an MB has plugged in a front bunker.  Conversely, every single ball hit poorly with a GI/SGI club will clear all hazards.  Every.Single.Time.  #Gauranteed!

 

7.  Scratch or better players that play GI/SGI clubs, like many members here, aren’t real golfers - they’re cheaters.  However, that malfeasance pales in comparison to the crimes against humanity that come from multiple hybrids and, God forbid, 7 woods...

 

8.  Too be a good golfer, it is absolutely critical to play the most challenging irons you can all the way up to 3i or 21 degrees or so of loft.  On the other hand, only a moron would use a Tony Penna persimmon driver or 8802 putter.

 

9.  The vast majority of mid-handicappers are there because they chip like Ray Charles and putt like Ronnie Milsap.  Fortunately, when it comes to iron play and ‘ball striking’ they are the love child of Moe Norman and Annika Sorenstam and their scores would really suffer if they couldn’t hold that knuckle fade up into the wind and attack every guarded front pin position.

 

10.  Nature abhors a straight line and all real players must work the ball on every single shot.  Everyone knows it is utterly impossible to de-loft, or purposely misalign club face and club path, to manipulate ball flight with a GI/SGI club.

 

11.  Smart golfers build their bag for days when their ball striking is a little off.  It is a proven fact that for smarter golfers, the distribution of bad-average-good does not follow the normal (I.e., bell curve) distribution but rather is heavily skewed toward bad.  Consequently, they have way more bad days than average or good it makes more sense to them to optimize for where they normally play.  Dumb, or ‘normal’ golfers realize that the combination of average plus good will heavily out weigh bad so they build their bags to maximize consistency for their average and good days.  This realization led to follow-on discovery of an inverse relationship between golf intellect and short game skill.  It appears smart golfers have no chance of scoring unless they hit 15+ greens per round.  Dumb golfers don’t know any better.  They grab a wedge, knock it stiff, one putt and continue leading a life of blissful ignorance.

 

As you can see, it is a very complicated issue.  As such, it must be dissected annually with rigid personal paradigm, fierce emotion, and fringe anecdotal evidence.  Fortunately, you’ve come to the right place for that type of discussion.

Soo your saying... i should have a mixed bag of blades, gi, sgi, persimmon woods and scotty putter? This might work and ill be the coolest guy around.

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