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SIM (2020) 8* vs 9*


Taylor24

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Hey guys, first time poster so be easy. 
 

I went to a local PGASS today and demo’d the 2020 sim and sim max. I started with the sim max in 9* and hit it pretty well.
 

I needed lower launch and spin so we moved to the sim in an 8* head down all the way to 6*. I hit it pretty well but would have some really low spin numbers. So, we moved it up to 7.25* and it was great. 
 

My question is would playing a 9* head at 7.5 be that much different than an 8* head at 7.25? I know it would sit more open but I’m afraid I’m over analyzing things. The 8* head is just harder to find. 
 

I’ll attach some of the numbers, I’m not 100% sure how he grouped them (I think he threw out the 6* shots) but I do know the top is the SIM, middle is warming up (I get nervous hitting around people lol) and bottom is the SIM max.

 

Thanks for any input I really appreciate it. 

C97A3896-313B-49D5-AA07-292C4B00E982.png

Ping G410 LST 9* / Tour Ad XC 6TX Shaft testing in progress..

Taylormade SIM Ti 15* / Tour Ad HD 7X @42.5

Titleist TS2 21* / Tour Ad XC 8x @41.5   A hybrid that is yet to be named

Titleist T100 (2019) 4-9 / Modus 120x

Titleist Vokey SM7 46+50+54+58 / Modus 120x

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Those top SIM numbers are pretty ridiculous in terms of optimization. High launch, low spin, big yards, and all in a very tight window. I would take that and run for two main reasons, the first being the aforementioned numbers. The second being that if that ends up proving to be too much of a "launch monitor bomber" that is unstable on the course, it is REALLY easy to up the stability of the SIM by dropping the weight on the front weight and increasing the back. I would use that as a backup plan in case you need it, otherwise take those top numbers and run knowing that you have the options to fine tune if necessary. 

Edited by Valtiel
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Taylormade Milled Grind Raw 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
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Thank you. That’s what I thought but was worried about it being a little too much of a launch monitor bomber lol. That’s good to know about the weight manipulation, I will keep that in mind. 
 

I thought maybe a 9* SIM turned down to 8.25 would bring the spin closer to 2k and make it more gamable on the course. 
 

Thanks again!

Ping G410 LST 9* / Tour Ad XC 6TX Shaft testing in progress..

Taylormade SIM Ti 15* / Tour Ad HD 7X @42.5

Titleist TS2 21* / Tour Ad XC 8x @41.5   A hybrid that is yet to be named

Titleist T100 (2019) 4-9 / Modus 120x

Titleist Vokey SM7 46+50+54+58 / Modus 120x

Bettinardi BB8W

 

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45 minutes ago, Taylor24 said:

Thank you. That’s what I thought but was worried about it being a little too much of a launch monitor bomber lol. That’s good to know about the weight manipulation, I will keep that in mind. 
 

I thought maybe a 9* SIM turned down to 8.25 would bring the spin closer to 2k and make it more gamable on the course. 
 

Thanks again!


Sure thing! And you are right to be a *little* worried given that 1,800 spin is in that "unstable" territory. Things to look out for there are toe strikes and seeing them duck hard left (assuming you're a righty) and any sharper curves in the air that feel unexpected. For the toe ball, the sliding weight can help there (moving it towards the toe). The SIM is already fade biased inherently so you'll get a bit of protection from the toe strike, but the sliding weight is your first line of defense. Second is the weight adjustment as I mentioned. I went pretty extreme with mine and dropped the 10g front/12g rear stock setup to a 4g/21g one and I have absolutely zero complaints with regards to stability. The formula of dropping loft as low as you can stand it and then increasing MOI with weight configuration adjustments like that is a really effective formula to maximize your launch conditions while keeping the unstable qualities of "bomber" setups at bay. 

Titleist TSi3 9* Tensei AV White 65TX 2.0 // Taylormade SIM 9* Ventus TR Blue 6TX
Taylormade Stealth+ 16.5* Ventus Black 8x // Taylormade SIM Ti V2 16.5* Ventus TR Blue 7X
Callaway Apex UW 19* Ventus Black 8x // Srixon ZX Utility MKII 18* Graphite Design AD-IZ 95X
Callaway X-Forged Single Diamond 22* Nippon GOST Hybrid Tour X 
Bridgestone 
J40 DPC 4i-7i 24*- 35* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Bridgestone J40 CB 8i-PW 39*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0

Taylormade Milled Grind Raw 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey SM6 58* Oil Can Low Bounce K-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Scotty Cameron Newport Tour Red Dot || Taylormade Spider X Navy Slant

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Awesome, thanks for your response. I will definitely keep the weight tinkering in mind, and knowing myself, I will probably mess with it just for fun lol. I will be on the lookout for an 8* head!

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Ping G410 LST 9* / Tour Ad XC 6TX Shaft testing in progress..

Taylormade SIM Ti 15* / Tour Ad HD 7X @42.5

Titleist TS2 21* / Tour Ad XC 8x @41.5   A hybrid that is yet to be named

Titleist T100 (2019) 4-9 / Modus 120x

Titleist Vokey SM7 46+50+54+58 / Modus 120x

Bettinardi BB8W

 

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21 hours ago, Valtiel said:


Sure thing! And you are right to be a *little* worried given that 1,800 spin is in that "unstable" territory. Things to look out for there are toe strikes and seeing them duck hard left (assuming you're a righty) and any sharper curves in the air that feel unexpected. For the toe ball, the sliding weight can help there (moving it towards the toe). The SIM is already fade biased inherently so you'll get a bit of protection from the toe strike, but the sliding weight is your first line of defense. Second is the weight adjustment as I mentioned. I went pretty extreme with mine and dropped the 10g front/12g rear stock setup to a 4g/21g one and I have absolutely zero complaints with regards to stability. The formula of dropping loft as low as you can stand it and then increasing MOI with weight configuration adjustments like that is a really effective formula to maximize your launch conditions while keeping the unstable qualities of "bomber" setups at bay. 

 

Really great info here. Just curious, with your configuration of the standard SIM... Is there a difference between that and the SIM max? I believe the SIM max has a 21g back weight. What would be the differences performance wise between your set up and the SIM Max, are they purely head/swing weight related based on the additional 4g of front weight? Thanks for the info.

Driver: Ping G430LST - Diamana GT 60tx

3 Wood:  TM Stealth 3W - Diamana GT 70tx

5 Wood: Ping G430 Max 5W - Tensei Pro Orange 80tx

Irons: Taylormade P770 4-PW - Modus 130s

Wedges: Vokey SM8 50.14F Modus 130x, SM9 54.12 - 58.12 - Modus 130x 

Putter: Ping PLD Anser 

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1 hour ago, ScottHutch2 said:

 

Really great info here. Just curious, with your configuration of the standard SIM... Is there a difference between that and the SIM max? I believe the SIM max has a 21g back weight. What would be the differences performance wise between your set up and the SIM Max, are they purely head/swing weight related based on the additional 4g of front weight? Thanks for the info.


Good question Scott, there are a couple differences. The SIM Max has an 18g stock weight, but close enough for our purposes here. The main difference is in the fact that the SIM standard is more fade biased than the SIM Max, which is pretty much dead neutral, and has a lower CG overall due to the existence of the weight track structure (and the forward weight). In doing what I did to my SIM, the following things happen:

- The fade bias is increased slightly given that the back weight sits slightly toe side. 
- MOI increases to a similar or slightly higher level than the Max.
- CG is slightly lower (not 100% sure here).

The overall result then is a slightly lower spinning, similar or slightly more stable, fade biased version of the SIM Max. I also had about 5g of hotmelt added in the back just in front of the weight to finalize the headweight, so that will have added slightly to the stability and the fade bias. All in all, an extremely anti-left driver that keeps spin low while maintaining high stability. 

Edited by Valtiel
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Titleist TSi3 9* Tensei AV White 65TX 2.0 // Taylormade SIM 9* Ventus TR Blue 6TX
Taylormade Stealth+ 16.5* Ventus Black 8x // Taylormade SIM Ti V2 16.5* Ventus TR Blue 7X
Callaway Apex UW 19* Ventus Black 8x // Srixon ZX Utility MKII 18* Graphite Design AD-IZ 95X
Callaway X-Forged Single Diamond 22* Nippon GOST Hybrid Tour X 
Bridgestone 
J40 DPC 4i-7i 24*- 35* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Bridgestone J40 CB 8i-PW 39*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0

Taylormade Milled Grind Raw 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey SM6 58* Oil Can Low Bounce K-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Scotty Cameron Newport Tour Red Dot || Taylormade Spider X Navy Slant

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33 minutes ago, Valtiel said:


Good question Scott, there are a couple differences. The SIM Max has an 18g stock weight, but close enough for our purposes here. The main difference is in the fact that the SIM standard is more fade biased than the SIM Max, which is pretty much dead neutral, and has a lower CG overall due to the existence of the weight track structure (and the forward weight). In doing what I did to my SIM, the following things happen:

- The fade bias is increased slightly given that the back weight sits slightly toe side. 
- MOI increases to a similar or slightly higher level than the Max.
- CG is slightly lower (not 100% sure here).

The overall result then is a slightly lower spinning, similar or slightly more stable, fade biased version of the SIM Max. I also had about 5g of hotmelt added in the back just in front of the weight to finalize the headweight, so that will have added slightly to the stability and the fade bias. All in all, an extremely anti-left driver that keeps spin low while maintaining high stability. 

Thank you for the detailed response. Very very informative. I assume you are playing a 10.5 with the loft turned down? That sounds like an extremely stable monster. I had to wonder if TM took note of the front and back weight adjustments lots of ppl were making to the SIM as the SIM2 sounds like it is in line with those changes. Dropping front weight, adding back weight. hence my curiosity in how it performed in relation to the SIM Max which seemed to already be in that mold. thanks for answer. greatly appreciated

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Driver: Ping G430LST - Diamana GT 60tx

3 Wood:  TM Stealth 3W - Diamana GT 70tx

5 Wood: Ping G430 Max 5W - Tensei Pro Orange 80tx

Irons: Taylormade P770 4-PW - Modus 130s

Wedges: Vokey SM8 50.14F Modus 130x, SM9 54.12 - 58.12 - Modus 130x 

Putter: Ping PLD Anser 

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3 minutes ago, ScottHutch2 said:

Thank you for the detailed response. Very very informative. I assume you are playing a 10.5 with the loft turned down? That sounds like an extremely stable monster. I had to wonder if TM took note of the front and back weight adjustments lots of ppl were making to the SIM as the SIM2 sounds like it is in line with those changes. Dropping front weight, adding back weight. hence my curiosity in how it performed in relation to the SIM Max which seemed to already be in that mold. thanks for answer. greatly appreciated


You're very welcome. And yes, I am turned down from 10.5* to 9*. I think TM definitely pays attention to common weight positions, especially with the tour guys, and i'm sure that informs some of their design decisions.

The SIM line is following the same pattern they have been using for the last 7 or so years where the first product in a new line is the less stable, lower spinning bomber, which then gets "refined" with each subsequent replacement until a new line is brought out, which then normally repeats the cycle with the goalposts moved up a bit. The difference with the SIM to me was the fact that the sole shape meant I could tweak the hell out of it without messing up the CG location, quite the opposite in fact. With just about any driver from the M-series for example, there was either a limitation on how far back you could get the weight (M1 2016 and 2017) or with how low you could keep it (M3 and M5). The M5's CG for example would become extremely high if I tried to push weight back because of the sole design and the limitations of their track system. My miss is lower in the face and slightly towards the toe, so I want a low CG head with a fade bias, and the SIM's design means I can pile weight in the back without the CG getting high (good for my low miss) and maintaining or even increasing the fade bias (good for my toe miss). Then the front weight track gives me the ability to fine tune swingweight if I need, so it pretty much has everything I want WITH the ability to feel like I am leapfrogging a few releases by doing what TM was planning on doing already, increasing stability. 

They do mix it up a bit though with tweaks to the Speed Injection, the new face milling thing they are doing, and the obvious aesthetic adjustments, but that is all just flair as far as i'm concerned, and I won't be changing to anything else unless it improves upon/gives me more of what I mentioned above. I will be checking out the TSi3 though. 😅 

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Titleist TSi3 9* Tensei AV White 65TX 2.0 // Taylormade SIM 9* Ventus TR Blue 6TX
Taylormade Stealth+ 16.5* Ventus Black 8x // Taylormade SIM Ti V2 16.5* Ventus TR Blue 7X
Callaway Apex UW 19* Ventus Black 8x // Srixon ZX Utility MKII 18* Graphite Design AD-IZ 95X
Callaway X-Forged Single Diamond 22* Nippon GOST Hybrid Tour X 
Bridgestone 
J40 DPC 4i-7i 24*- 35* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Bridgestone J40 CB 8i-PW 39*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0

Taylormade Milled Grind Raw 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey SM6 58* Oil Can Low Bounce K-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Scotty Cameron Newport Tour Red Dot || Taylormade Spider X Navy Slant

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On 1/22/2021 at 6:28 PM, Taylor24 said:

Hey guys, first time poster so be easy. 
 

I went to a local PGASS today and demo’d the 2020 sim and sim max. I started with the sim max in 9* and hit it pretty well.
 

I needed lower launch and spin so we moved to the sim in an 8* head down all the way to 6*. I hit it pretty well but would have some really low spin numbers. So, we moved it up to 7.25* and it was great. 
 

My question is would playing a 9* head at 7.5 be that much different than an 8* head at 7.25? I know it would sit more open but I’m afraid I’m over analyzing things. The 8* head is just harder to find. 
 

I’ll attach some of the numbers, I’m not 100% sure how he grouped them (I think he threw out the 6* shots) but I do know the top is the SIM, middle is warming up (I get nervous hitting around people lol) and bottom is the SIM max.

 

Thanks for any input I really appreciate it. 

C97A3896-313B-49D5-AA07-292C4B00E982.png

First question, what ball were you hitting, and was it the same make/model throughout your fitting? 
 

A low spinning ball vs a higher spinning ball can vary upwards or 400rpms at your swing speed. 
 

I play my Driver at 7.5*, launch the ball high 15.5-16* and my spin rate is low 1700-1900 with a Bridgestone BX, so I’m looking to slightly lower my launch and increase spin, it has been mentioned to change balls. 
 

When I went to an iron fitting, I saw a big difference from the balls they provided at PGASS, to the premiums I brought in the next day (Bridgestone BXS)  Below is a reference to the spin rate from ball to ball at 115mph. In premium balls it varies about 400rpms  you can google “M¥ g0lf sp¥ ball test” and it should come up if the link below doesn’t work. Sometimes they get blocked 

 

https://Not allowed because of spam.com/most-wanted-golf-ball/

 

Edited by Drivingrangehero
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