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Tips on how to get more vertical in the backswing??


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10 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I disagree regarding your backswing, it is not particularly flat, especially by the time you get to the top. You have correctly identified the problem (arms disconnected from the body, steep) but you've missed the cause of that. The primary problem here is hip depth, specifically the loss of it during the swing:

300284039_ScreenShot2021-01-26at5_07_33PM.png.7f9e11dc92e775c0408bb4d99abb49b9.png

The red line is positioned in the same place in all the panels, and we can see each step of the way you are losing hip depth. The result of this is that by the time you are at impact, your right leg is actually occupying the space where your hands were at address (red dot in panel 5). With that problem, you are forced to steepen on the way down as your lower body has changed position and your hands would run into your leg if you didn't.

This video explains it perfectly since you are doing exactly what they describe:
 

 

Thanks for the in depth response, that isn't something I had even considered. I will check the video out and see what I can do about fixing it. 

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10 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I disagree regarding your backswing, it is not particularly flat, especially by the time you get to the top. You have correctly identified the problem (arms disconnected from the body, steep) but you've missed the cause of that. The primary problem here is hip depth, specifically the loss of it during the swing:

300284039_ScreenShot2021-01-26at5_07_33PM.png.7f9e11dc92e775c0408bb4d99abb49b9.png

The red line is positioned in the same place in all the panels, and we can see each step of the way you are losing hip depth. The result of this is that by the time you are at impact, your right leg is actually occupying the space where your hands were at address (red dot in panel 5). With that problem, you are forced to steepen on the way down as your lower body has changed position and your hands would run into your leg if you didn't.

This video explains it perfectly since you are doing exactly what they describe:
 

 

So then, the idea is to be more active with the right hip and more passive with the left?

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1 hour ago, noahdavis_7 said:

So then, the idea is to be more active with the right hip and more passive with the left?

 

The idea overall is to make sure you're keeping all that space available for everything to get through the ball. How you choose to feel that is up to you, but generally speaking yes, feeling more like your right hip is going back and less like your left hip is coming out in front of you. Then making sure you maintain that depth when you pivot and rotate so your hands and arms have all that room to work through the hitting area instead of steepening to get around a lower body that is blocking the path. 

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8 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

 

The idea overall is to make sure you're keeping all that space available for everything to get through the ball. How you choose to feel that is up to you, but generally speaking yes, feeling more like your right hip is going back and less like your left hip is coming out in front of you. Then making sure you maintain that depth when you pivot and rotate so your hands and arms have all that room to work through the hitting area instead of steepening to get around a lower body that is blocking the path. 

Gotcha. I have been practicing the feeling with my rear against the wall. Harder to feel with a club but I am going to keep working the feel. It's gonna take some time 

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@noahdavis_7 Definitely agree with @Valtiel

 

Two things...

  1. I don't like the idea of practicing with your back against a wall. That teaches you to early extend, because you can't increase depth of your hips with the wall in the way. You need to have room to rotate beyond your plane at address. So you should be thinking about your backside being 1-2 inches away from the wall at address, and the right cheek contacting the wall at the end of your backswing and the left contacting at impact position. 
  2. The other aspect that I saw that Valtiel didn't touch on was something I saw in the below AMG video at about the 3:20 mark. It relates to your address position. I think you're starting in a position with too much hip depth, which creates a balance problem. At that point you only have one way to go--forward. Your upper body, the momentum of the club, etc are going to pull your center of gravity forward from that position and your hips will go with. If you set up at address with your hips more centered over your feet (i.e. pelvis about 1/3 of the way from your heel to toe) rather than over or behind your heel, it gives you MUCH more room to maintain that depth in the swing because you're in a more balanced position.

I also really like the below AMG video. While it centers on the exact same thing Valtiel told you, I think some of the way it presents the data, relating it to an actual lesson given to a player, helps relate how you might work on it. 

 

 

Edited by betarhoalphadelta
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2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

@noahdavis_7 Definitely agree with @Valtiel

 

Two things...

  1. I don't like the idea of practicing with your back against a wall. That teaches you to early extend, because you can't increase depth of your hips with the wall in the way. You need to have room to rotate beyond your plane at address. So you should be thinking about your backside being 1-2 inches away from the wall at address, and the right cheek contacting the wall at the end of your backswing and the left contacting at impact position. 
  2. The other aspect that I saw that Valtiel didn't touch on was something I saw in the below AMG video at about the 3:20 mark. It relates to your address position. I think you're starting in a position with too much hip depth, which creates a balance problem. At that point you only have one way to go--forward. Your upper body, the momentum of the club, etc are going to pull your center of gravity forward from that position and your hips will go with. If you set up at address with your hips more centered over your feet (i.e. pelvis about 1/3 of the way from your heel to toe) rather than over or behind your heel, it gives you MUCH more room to maintain that depth in the swing because you're in a more balanced position.

I also really like the below AMG video. While it centers on the exact same thing Valtiel told you, I think some of the way it presents the data, relating it to an actual lesson given to a player, helps relate how you might work on it. 

 

 

 

Agreed, great additions, and I love that video. 

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To add to this convo and to the images above, I grabbed the sequences of Bobby Nichols, Arnold Palmer, and Lee Trevino from the 1975 Masters:

362512666_ScreenShot2021-01-28at2_16_59AM.png.1dbecc450075fb36bc6f9b3d1a0a11cd.png

558403706_ScreenShot2021-01-28at2_18_34AM.png.9f85e2e54342f888a69169687b1c0376.png

790992770_ScreenShot2021-01-28at2_26_36AM.png.7312e6fd350de2f5a4ba9aad8ee1072b.png

Same story across the board, the hips maintain their depth throughout the swing. Trevino is actually a little deceptive because he lines up so open that I accidentally placed the line on his left cheek, hah. Even by that inaccurate line, he still maintains depth throughout. 

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45 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

To add to this convo and to the images above, I grabbed the sequences of Bobby Nichols, Arnold Palmer, and Lee Trevino from the 1975 Masters:

362512666_ScreenShot2021-01-28at2_16_59AM.png.1dbecc450075fb36bc6f9b3d1a0a11cd.png

558403706_ScreenShot2021-01-28at2_18_34AM.png.9f85e2e54342f888a69169687b1c0376.png

790992770_ScreenShot2021-01-28at2_26_36AM.png.7312e6fd350de2f5a4ba9aad8ee1072b.png

Same story across the board, the hips maintain their depth throughout the swing. Trevino is actually a little deceptive because he lines up so open that I accidentally placed the line on his left cheek, hah. Even by that inaccurate line, he still maintains depth throughout. 

Proof right here is 3 different backswings with the same results. Most people on here would say Arnold Palmer takeaway was too flat and Lee Trevino is taking it back too much outside. The OP needs to train his hands to work correctly on the downswing. 

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3 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Proof right here is 3 different backswings with the same results. Most people on here would say Arnold Palmer takeaway was too flat and Lee Trevino is taking it back too much outside. The OP needs to train his hands to work correctly on the downswing. 


I don't disagree, but "training your hands" only helps if they have room to work. No amount of hand training will make up for the fact that moving your pelvis 6"+ towards the ball during the backswing/downswing will force a compensation. "Swing your swing" only works when certain fundamentals are in place. 

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His hips react to pulling the club down too steeply. He needs to feel the red line in this photo to get to where the green line is. Best way to do that? Have the back of the left hand feel like it's facing the sky or right palm facing the sky. The hips will sort themselves out without having to think about them. 

slot.jpg

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1 hour ago, laneholt said:

Beta,

   How many times in the last 40 years of my life have I read someone suggest this advice to a beginner golfer — 

 “ place your rear end against a wall or a door frame to learn the proper BS “  ONLY a SUPERHUMAN could perform such a feat BC the vertebrae of an average human can only twist approx. 25-30 degrees. That leaves another approx. 60 degrees if a 90 degree torso rotation is the goal. Any idea where that 60 comes from ? Yep- bet you do and that WALL or DOOR FRAME will not allow that . If their is a SUPERHUMAN i would certainly lay to see that !

 

Well, they are correct about the issue. Perhaps a different "feel" would help.

 

Just a note, I am a 3 HCP so not a beginner (I wish i was so i could start from scratch haha)

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2 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

His hips react to pulling the club down too steeply. He needs to feel the red line in this photo to get to where the green line is. Best way to do that? Have the back of the left hand feel like it's facing the sky or right palm facing the sky. The hips will sort themselves out without having to think about them. 

slot.jpg


His hips have already extended towards the ball before he has ever started pulling the club down, so i'm not sure how they are supposed to sort themselves out? I agree with the lines you drew, but if he has already lost hip depth in the backswing then nothing he does with his hands in transition will magically get his hips back in the right place, and he will be forced to come over the top and compensate in some capacity. 

Edited by Valtiel
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3 hours ago, Valtiel said:


His hips have already extended towards the ball before he has ever started pulling the club down, so i'm not sure how they are supposed to sort themselves out? I agree with the lines you drew, but if he has already lost hip depth in the backswing then nothing he does with his hands in transition will magically get his hips back in the right place, and he will be forced to come over the top and compensate in some capacity. 

His hips are so far back to begin with he has no choice but to thrust forward or he'd fall on his face. Our brains are wired to keep us balanced whether we're walking or hitting a golf ball. Viewing the downswing as a rounded motion rather than up and down cleans up a lot of issues. Backswing is individual to the player to slot the club correctly.  

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I got out to play 9 today. Tried to get my weight more centered at address (hips more over feet instead of behind heels) and I have to say it was strange. Feel wise it seemed I had less space, I hit most balls right, which tells me how just have to learn to rotate better. Obviously, this is just feel, and I won't know till I get video. It seemed I was retaining depth better. I'll get some video soon.

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9 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

His hips are so far back to begin with he has no choice but to thrust forward or he'd fall on his face. Our brains are wired to keep us balanced whether we're walking or hitting a golf ball. Viewing the downswing as a rounded motion rather than up and down cleans up a lot of issues. Backswing is individual to the player to slot the club correctly.  


I don't disagree with any of that either, but I still fail to see how "hands" are the solution to any of that. It sounds more like adjusting posture (as he mentioned above) is a more logical first step, but even then I don't think this initial posture is anything crazy. 

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I’ll offer my two cents. You set up with the toe of the club on the ball and when you come into the downswing you thrust towards the ball; catching the center of the face. My cousin, I’ll post a picture, has far too much knee flex with his hands really close to his knees and he’s wayyy OTT. You don’t have that severe of knee flex in comparison nor are you so far OTT. You have good spacing from your hands to your knees so you should have room to come more inside  on the downswing but if you do that (with your current SETUP) you might just miss the ball or toe the balls out of it.
 

I think this: your goat humping is a compensation because you set up too far away from the ball. Set up closer (ball center of face) and try to maintain your hip depth. 

AB06DBF2-D614-47B2-B5A9-9953442C8B3B.png

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17 hours ago, Valtiel said:


I don't disagree with any of that either, but I still fail to see how "hands" are the solution to any of that. It sounds more like adjusting posture (as he mentioned above) is a more logical first step, but even then I don't think this initial posture is anything crazy. 

Jack Nicklaus had this same tendency yet won 20 majors with it.  Go to about 6:40. 

 

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5 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Jack Nicklaus had this same tendency yet won 20 majors with it.  Go to about 6:40. 

 


Interesting, thanks for sharing that. I would argue that is definitely an exception to the rule though as Jack had many little idiosyncrasies and compensations in his swing that if given to the average or even above average golfer would send them spiraling. It also does not look like it was a foundational component to his swing, but rather an occasional "mistake" or perhaps just a feel thing for his favored left to right ball flight. 

I think the rule of thumb should generally be "anything goes unless it causes problems". You wouldn't teach DJ's bowed wrist, Matt Wolff's takeaway, or literally ANYTHING that Webb Simpson does (lol), but if someone came to you with ball striking problems and had one of those components, it would likely be visited and corrected. Golf swing oddities either get integrated and become part of what works for a player, or they impede them, and they should be treated accordingly based on observation.   

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As i

20 hours ago, Valtiel said:


Interesting, thanks for sharing that. I would argue that is definitely an exception to the rule though as Jack had many little idiosyncrasies and compensations in his swing that if given to the average or even above average golfer would send them spiraling. It also does not look like it was a foundational component to his swing, but rather an occasional "mistake" or perhaps just a feel thing for his favored left to right ball flight. 

I think the rule of thumb should generally be "anything goes unless it causes problems". You wouldn't teach DJ's bowed wrist, Matt Wolff's takeaway, or literally ANYTHING that Webb Simpson does (lol), but if someone came to you with ball striking problems and had one of those components, it would likely be visited and corrected. Golf swing oddities either get integrated and become part of what works for a player, or they impede them, and they should be treated accordingly based on observation.   

As in the Webb Simpson The Us Open Champion, The Players Champion, $40 Million in the bank and one of the straightest drivers on the planet Webb Simpson? Yeah, you can't learn anything from him.

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11 hours ago, laneholt said:

Valtiel,

 

     Why wouldn’t you teach a player to position his DOMINANT HANDS like DJ during his swing ? Especially a player who doesn’t ever AGAIN  want to hit PULLS and HOOKS - to keep their HANDS  from rolling over and turning down as they are **genetically designed ** to do..

     DJ has figured out how to keep it from going—left ! I don’t much care how you choose to take the shaft back to form a lever , but you had better have the correct angle of attack at impact. Most all of the good players do BC the shaft angle is between approx. 48 - 52 degrees at impact 

 

2 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

As i

As in the Webb Simpson The Us Open Champion, The Players Champion, $40 Million in the bank and one of the straightest drivers on the planet Webb Simpson? Yeah, you can't learn anything from him.


Their success is not my point, my point is that you would never teach someone a heavily bowed left wrist like DJ or a heavily cupped left wrist like Webb, and if either of those elements were present in someone's golf swing AND they had significant problems, you would likely attempt to correct them. The same goes for early extension or any other swing quirk. So yes, there is very little any one player can learn from another pro's swing, especially a very atypical one, unless they happened to share a significant amount of similarities, and even then it would be dubious at best. 

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2 hours ago, Valtiel said:

 


Their success is not my point, my point is that you would never teach someone a heavily bowed left wrist like DJ or a heavily cupped left wrist like Webb, and if either of those elements were present in someone's golf swing AND they had significant problems, you would likely attempt to correct them. The same goes for early extension or any other swing quirk. So yes, there is very little any one player can learn from another pro's swing, especially a very atypical one, unless they happened to share a significant amount of similarities, and even then it would be dubious at best. 

What you can learn from DJ or Webb's swing  is you don't have follow the trends of golf instruction to be great golfers. Way too much focus on the top of the backswing position, rotation through the ball, ulnar deviation or whatever big words people use to attempt to sound smarter than they are. What great players through the ages have shown is there are several ways to take the club back, set the wrists, lay it off or cross the line at the top. What they all have in common is through impact where it matters. Viewing the OP's swing again, him merely not early extending won't fix his swing without understanding that he can't pull down steep and needs the club coming more from behind. If he didn't early extend, he'd hit a foot behind it.  

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1 minute ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

What you can learn from DJ or Webb's swing  is you don't have follow the trends of golf instruction to be great golfers. Way too much focus on the top of the backswing position, rotation through the ball, ulnar deviation or whatever big words people use to attempt to sound smarter than they are. What great players through the ages have shown is there are several ways to take the club back, set the wrists, lay it off or cross the line at the top. What they all have in common is through impact where it matters. Viewing the OP's swing again, him merely not early extending won't fix his swing without understanding that he can't pull down steep and needs the club coming more from behind. If he didn't early extend, he'd hit a foot behind it.  


Again, I don't disagree with that but you're still not getting my point. Of course there are TONS of different ways to do it, but the point is that just because one person does it one way does not mean it is right for another. Jack and Tyrell have an early extension, DJ has a bowed wrist, Webb has a cupped wrist, Wollf points his club towards Mercury in his backswing....but none of that means any of those things are right for someone else. When it works, you don't mess with it. But when it DOESN'T, as in the case of the OP, you do, and you can't apply the same logic to both scenarios. 

The thing we seem to disagree on here is the chicken/egg problem in transition. Your position seems to be that he has to early extend because of what his hands are doing, but i'd argue the opposite. He has already lost so much hip depth by the top of the backswing, BEFORE his hands have pulled down steep, so therefore I think it is backwards to blame this on the hands. We have seen it time and time and time again that loss of hip depth in the backswing pushes people over the top and steep, because it virtually has to. His right leg occupies the space that his hands were in at address, so no matter what he does or does not do with his hands he is FORCED to come in well above plane because of what the loss of hip depth has caused. No amount of anything related to the hands will change that, and because he is already extended at the top of the backswing then there is nothing the hands can do on the way down to magically make room and regain hip depth. 

Again, I am in no way advocating for golf instruction trends, I am advocating for the underlying fundamentals that make all the rainbow of different swings work, and 99% of the time that is an adequate amount of hip depth to allow the hands and arms to come back down on plane and achieve that impact position, which is all that matters. You can't do that if your right leg is in the way. 

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20 hours ago, Valtiel said:


Again, I don't disagree with that but you're still not getting my point. Of course there are TONS of different ways to do it, but the point is that just because one person does it one way does not mean it is right for another. Jack and Tyrell have an early extension, DJ has a bowed wrist, Webb has a cupped wrist, Wollf points his club towards Mercury in his backswing....but none of that means any of those things are right for someone else. When it works, you don't mess with it. But when it DOESN'T, as in the case of the OP, you do, and you can't apply the same logic to both scenarios. 

The thing we seem to disagree on here is the chicken/egg problem in transition. Your position seems to be that he has to early extend because of what his hands are doing, but i'd argue the opposite. He has already lost so much hip depth by the top of the backswing, BEFORE his hands have pulled down steep, so therefore I think it is backwards to blame this on the hands. We have seen it time and time and time again that loss of hip depth in the backswing pushes people over the top and steep, because it virtually has to. His right leg occupies the space that his hands were in at address, so no matter what he does or does not do with his hands he is FORCED to come in well above plane because of what the loss of hip depth has caused. No amount of anything related to the hands will change that, and because he is already extended at the top of the backswing then there is nothing the hands can do on the way down to magically make room and regain hip depth. 

Again, I am in no way advocating for golf instruction trends, I am advocating for the underlying fundamentals that make all the rainbow of different swings work, and 99% of the time that is an adequate amount of hip depth to allow the hands and arms to come back down on plane and achieve that impact position, which is all that matters. You can't do that if your right leg is in the way. 

Incorrect intentions before you swing cause a lot of what you're referring to. If someone views the swing as an up and down motion, they'll never improve their ballstriking.

 

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Look... you can do whatever you want in the golf swing and if you have the correct matchup, it'll work well. Arm height is the least of your problems. If anything, you need depth in your backswing. Right now, you have very little room to come down the way you want to, and since you're a good athlete, you're making some compensations that just complicate things. Meh, who needs that?

 

Your instinct to get your butt forward and over your heels is great. The old-timey greats all had "bad, slouchy" posture, and it resulted in their achieving great hip depth and rotation. You want to feel like the Ping Man, Ben Hogan, or Lee Trevino. Bend from your upper back. You'll feel too close to the ball. If that's the case, drop your trail hand when you're set up over the ball, and if it drops below the grip, back up a touch. If it doesn't, you're fine.

 

You want your armpits over the balls of your feet. You'll feel like you're on your toes, but you won't be. If you want to feel like you have a steeper backswing without disconnecting or lifting, you'll want to steepen your shoulder turn- feel like your trail shoulder goes up and behind you. Trail shoulder higher than right. You'll get the steeper swing and added arm depth for free.

 

If you want to feel hip depth, put a chair 1" behind you and try to hit the chair going back. In this better setup, you will. Right now, your hips are pushed back and when you turn, they have nowhere to go but forward because of how the body works. When you set up to the chair get into your new posture first- don't adapt to where the chair is, move it to you. As you turn per the above paragraph, you'll find you gain some hip depth, free up your turn, and get your pressure into your trail heel. Which is really good. You'll feel way more balanced. This will take some time and a lot of reps. I have your habit, especially when I get tired during a round. 

 

As for the down swing, I mean... if your clubface is open when the shaft is parallel to the ground (that is, toe up) and you don't square it up ASAP, you're not gonna wanna rotate or shallow. You'll either flip at the bottom with your hands or come in a bit steep instinctively. So make sure the clubface is parallel to your back line at last parallel. Your grip has a lot to do with that, by the way. I have no idea what your grip is like, but it's a lot easier to shallow if you have a slightly stronger (or at least less weak) grip.

 

Fix the above stuff and then you can work on the steeps part. That's actually pretty easy to fix. But if your setup sucks, you can do all the chair drills you want and you'll still end up off balance and early extending to compensate.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Scottbox
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How to film your golf swing:

 

Down The Line

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On 1/26/2021 at 7:22 PM, Valtiel said:

I disagree regarding your backswing, it is not particularly flat, especially by the time you get to the top. You have correctly identified the problem (arms disconnected from the body, steep) but you've missed the cause of that. The primary problem here is hip depth, specifically the loss of it during the swing:

300284039_ScreenShot2021-01-26at5_07_33PM.png.7f9e11dc92e775c0408bb4d99abb49b9.png

The red line is positioned in the same place in all the panels, and we can see each step of the way you are losing hip depth. The result of this is that by the time you are at impact, your right leg is actually occupying the space where your hands were at address (red dot in panel 5). With that problem, you are forced to steepen on the way down as your lower body has changed position and your hands would run into your leg if you didn't.

This video explains it perfectly since you are doing exactly what they describe:
 

 

 

As much as I enjoy and appreciate the content of this video, it casts a dark shadow over my current swing. I'll defo lose my sleep tonight and many nights after that thinking about this analysis... I have a feeling that my golf game is going to be absolute sh*t in the next few months 😄 

God helps me... 

Edited by swagee
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2 hours ago, Scottbox said:

Look... you can do whatever you want in the golf swing and if you have the correct matchup, it'll work well. Arm height is the least of your problems. If anything, you need depth in your backswing. Right now, you have very little room to come down the way you want to, and since you're a good athlete, you're making some compensations that just complicate things. Meh, who needs that?

 

Your instinct to get your butt forward and over your heels is great. The old-timey greats all had "bad, slouchy" posture, and it resulted in their achieving great hip depth and rotation. You want to feel like the Ping Man, Ben Hogan, or Lee Trevino. Bend from your upper back. You'll feel too close to the ball. If that's the case, drop your trail hand when you're set up over the ball, and if it drops below the grip, back up a touch. If it doesn't, you're fine.

 

You want your armpits over the balls of your feet. You'll feel like you're on your toes, but you won't be. If you want to feel like you have a steeper backswing without disconnecting or lifting, you'll want to steepen your shoulder turn- feel like your trail shoulder goes up and behind you. Trail shoulder higher than right. You'll get the steeper swing and added arm depth for free.

 

If you want to feel hip depth, put a chair 1" behind you and try to hit the chair going back. In this better setup, you will. Right now, your hips are pushed back and when you turn, they have nowhere to go but forward because of how the body works. When you set up to the chair get into your new posture first- don't adapt to where the chair is, move it to you. As you turn per the above paragraph, you'll find you gain some hip depth, free up your turn, and get your pressure into your trail heel. Which is really good. You'll feel way more balanced. This will take some time and a lot of reps. I have your habit, especially when I get tired during a round. 

 

As for the down swing, I mean... if your clubface is open when the shaft is parallel to the ground (that is, toe up) and you don't square it up ASAP, you're not gonna wanna rotate or shallow. You'll either flip at the bottom with your hands or come in a bit steep instinctively. So make sure the clubface is parallel to your back line at last parallel. Your grip has a lot to do with that, by the way. I have no idea what your grip is like, but it's a lot easier to shallow if you have a slightly stronger (or at least less weak) grip.

 

Fix the above stuff and then you can work on the steeps part. That's actually pretty easy to fix. But if your setup sucks, you can do all the chair drills you want and you'll still end up off balance and early extending to compensate.

 

 

 

 

How many George Gankas videos have you watched in the past month? 🙂

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1 hour ago, swagee said:

 

As much as I enjoy the appreciate the content of this video, it casts a dark shadow over my current swing. I'll defo lose my sleep tonight and many nights after that thinking about this analysis... I have a feeling that my golf game is going to be absolute sh*t in the next few months 😄 

God helps me... 

I'd get that video out of your head mate ASAP.

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