Try to tell me it’s not ego

[bvanlieu]

TiTW I have not done it with a blade, but I have the 790, a CB 770 and a slightly less tech CB1008 and observed the same thing with my practice sessions and LM: the 790 6i bent weak to be only .5 stronger goes out there about the same as well struck shots with my other clubs. I am not as good of a consistent strike as you and do measure a few MPH ball speed increase at times on the 790 for 3-4y better carry on some misses. 

 

Launch and spin are in the same ball park and strike dependent: I don't see more then a few hundred RPM less spin on the 790. 

 

 

[roundersmitty]

For myself I would take the 790s not for distance but because I'm not a good enough ball striker for the 730s.  I don't really care what the bottom of the club says.  Right now I play 2017 p770s and they are a good fit.  A friend of mine with game improvement irons with jacked lofts is puzzled why we usually hit the same iron # on par 3s...but off the tee I'm always 30-40 yards past him.  

[cwilk]

I agree. There may be some small variance in launch numbers, but overall loft accounts for the majority of distance. I think the one glaring exception is if someone was trying to play a shaft that was just a terrible fit for them and made it difficult to swing the club. 
 

I’ve also played several styles of clubs and the difference didn’t produce different scores for me. My scores have improved over time from improving skill and decision making. 

[nitram]

10 hours ago, FlyingLaw1 said:

I really wish I could buy a set of irons that had the loft stamped on the bottom instead of the iron #. 

 You can, from Ben Hogan Golf.

[HarringtonREI]

10 hours ago, TigerInTheWoods said:

So I’m hitting balls into the net tonight with launch monitor. My dad has his clubs sitting there and has a P790 demo he was trying out so I decided to compare to my backup set. 
 

Club A: P730 6i lofted at 31* 

 

Club B: P790 7i lofted at 30.5*

 

Both clubs within a quarter inch of each other. 
 

Both clubs carrying between 200-205y repeatedly. Ball speed identical. Smash identical. Both are essentially the same loft. One is apparently a tech filled rocket launcher one is pure blade. 
 

Loft for loft, it’s smoke and mirrors - they’re the same. The difference is I’m playing 5-AW in one set or 4-PW in the other. 
 

If it’s not about telling your buddies that you smoothed a 7i 180 I don’t know what else to tell you. 

100% agree, I play MP20 MB, and buddy has 790s going through the same thing. Only thing id ask since you had it on launch monitor is the height, land angle and spin numbers? To me those numbers a long with carry will tell me what the real story is. If the juiced up 7 still has the height, steeper land angle, and spin # of a true 7 iron, then we have something to talk about. Because thats the main thing that matters to me with irons. if your 7,000 spin, higher, and steeper with the 790 7i than the 730 6iron, then youre getting the benefit of a truely longer 7iron, and not just it being a 6 iron. 

[HarringtonREI]

10 hours ago, TigerInTheWoods said:

So I’m hitting balls into the net tonight with launch monitor. My dad has his clubs sitting there and has a P790 demo he was trying out so I decided to compare to my backup set. 
 

Club A: P730 6i lofted at 31* 

 

Club B: P790 7i lofted at 30.5*

 

Both clubs within a quarter inch of each other. 
 

Both clubs carrying between 200-205y repeatedly. Ball speed identical. Smash identical. Both are essentially the same loft. One is apparently a tech filled rocket launcher one is pure blade. 
 

Loft for loft, it’s smoke and mirrors - they’re the same. The difference is I’m playing 5-AW in one set or 4-PW in the other. 
 

If it’s not about telling your buddies that you smoothed a 7i 180 I don’t know what else to tell you. 

delete multiple post

Edited January 28, 2021 by HarringtonREI

[HarringtonREI]

10 hours ago, TigerInTheWoods said:

So I’m hitting balls into the net tonight with launch monitor. My dad has his clubs sitting there and has a P790 demo he was trying out so I decided to compare to my backup set. 
 

Club A: P730 6i lofted at 31* 

 

Club B: P790 7i lofted at 30.5*

 

Both clubs within a quarter inch of each other. 
 

Both clubs carrying between 200-205y repeatedly. Ball speed identical. Smash identical. Both are essentially the same loft. One is apparently a tech filled rocket launcher one is pure blade. 
 

Loft for loft, it’s smoke and mirrors - they’re the same. The difference is I’m playing 5-AW in one set or 4-PW in the other. 
 

If it’s not about telling your buddies that you smoothed a 7i 180 I don’t know what else to tell you. 

Delete, multiple post. 

Edited January 28, 2021 by HarringtonREI

[Old Tom Morris]

1 hour ago, me05501 said:

 

Spot on, probably. 

When I started playing, hybrids weren't a thing and the only wedge most people owned was a sand wedge plus the pitching wedge from their set. This was right around the time people started discussing gap wedges (and why they were even called "gap" wedges). 

 

Now it's common to see at least two expensive wedges at the bottom of every bag and often one or two expensive hybrids at the top. Meanwhile we're paying more for a "full" set of 6 irons than we paid for a set of 8 irons before. 

And average scores haven't dropped.  

Yes, the loft jacking winds up having the consumer purchase a smaller set of irons and then more wedges, hybrids, and driving irons “a la carte” at $200/club.

[lefthack]

51 minutes ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

What are the shaft lengths?

I assume the same if talking stock shaft. I think the Pros come with a different shaft, but the length should be the same unless I'm missing something.

[Itsjustagame]

So you're hitting a golf ball 200 yards. Assuming that's what you intended to do, in actually playing the game nothing else matters.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Itsjustagame

[HarringtonREI]

10 minutes ago, Itsjustagame said:

So you're hitting a golf ball 200 yards. Assuming that's what you intended to do, in actually playing the game nothing else matters.

Partially true. 

 

If you're hitting a ball 200 yards of carry with a 7iron, and still have the benefit of stopping power from a 7iron, then it does matter..... If you're hitting a 7iron that also carries 200 yards but has the stopping power on a green of a 6 iron, then yes its irrelevant because youre just hitting a 6 iron regardless wha the number on bottom says. Could be. PW, same story. 

 

And dont get me wrong, im no fan of 790s, and loft jacking, I play mp20 mb. But I can see a benefit if im getting ball speed & carry of a 6, but the benefits coming into a green of a 7iron, or 8iron.

Edited January 28, 2021 by HarringtonREI

[mister2cool]

1 hour ago, lefthack said:

Having not really paid attention before last year when I started looking for newer clubs, I had no idea. Then just the other day it blew me away.

 

Nike Vapor Pro Combo 3i = 20 degrees.

 

Nike Vapor Fly 4i = 21 degrees.

 

I didn't think the lofts would be different within the same line, but I was wrong.

Those are definitely not really the same line even though they both say Vapor.. 

[Tree Levino]

6 minutes ago, Itsjustagame said:

So you're hitting a golf ball 200 yards. Assuming that's what you intended to do, in actually playing the game nothing else matters.

 

Correct. My stock 6i is 200-205, stepped on 210 and faded smooth 190-195. It just got me thinking about what my gapping is going down from that with the P790 7i. For those referencing spin numbers, the 790 when I've tested on monitor spins like a 6i. About 5k rpm off mats (more outside). Launch would be a touch higher, peak heights similar but edge to 790. Taking something off (not talking cut) will reduce the spin a bit. Extrapolating on the data, if my stock 7i is 200 yards with the 790, I would go:

 

P790

5i: 230

6i: 215

7i: 200

8i: 185

9i: 170

PW: 155

AW: 140

53 or 54?: 125

58: 110ish

 

P730

4i: 230

5i: 215

6i: 200

7i: 185

8i: 170

9i: 155

PW: 140

52: 130

56: 115

60: 100

 

 

End of the story is I feel like there is some pressure at the bottom of the bag. My dad is NOT a good ball striker and looking at his numbers, what ended up happening was he would still miss strike the 790 a lot resulting in a bunch of carries around 150 and then he would pop it 170-175. This is where the flier thing comes in on here. It's not actually a flier, you just happen to actually strike one once in a while. He strikes 1/10 really well, where I'm 8 or 9 in 10. My carries with the 790 are actually really consistent, it's just that I'm essentially losing a club towards the bottom. For him, I actually like him with a bit more loft so that the differences between his good and bad strikes are a bit closer. I got him the 2020 P770 in a 5-PW and he goes to a 4h from there. 

[RainShadow]

9 hours ago, TigerInTheWoods said:

You’d think that. Caught a couple clean with each, next to no difference. Hit a couple out the toe on each, not much difference. This is ball speed. My guess is launch comes down a touch and club face would twist a bit more with the blade which might lead to a couple more yards of distance loss but you’d be surprised how little the tech helps. 
 

Compare the ball speed drop offs on the blades to the “tech irons” in that video. 
 

 

 Well, you are a + handicap, or an elite player according to your profile.

I don’t really care too much about the about what others hit, or how far they hit certain clubs. 
  I only care about my game. 
 It is all about ego. Guys complaining about “jacked lofts” are just as egotistical as those who say the hit their 5 iron length and lofted “7” iron 200yrds.

 These threads crack me up.

[HarringtonREI]

This is exact same issue as my buddy with 790s, has a big bunch up at the bottom of the bag, and having hard time trying to figure out the wedges. FWIW, 790s I think cause an additional issue, because the 790 PW is 45 degrees, which is weak compared to the 9, 8, 7 and so on. Most standard loft PW are 46. So its not too beefed up. Which causes a ton of problems. He thinks he cant hit his PW and 9 very well, and then 8,7,6 so on are good. top end on 790s, are 3-4 degrees stronger. PW though only 1 degree, 9 only 2 degrees. 

 

Causes lots of problems with wedge/short iron gapping which is where its most important. 

[RainShadow]

2 hours ago, jomatty said:

I currently have two 6 irons in the bag, and no 5 iron.  The epic forged 6 iron works really well with my apex pro’s as a 5 iron and it is much easier to hit high and stop then the apex pro 5 iron.  As a high speed player, this may not be much of a factor for you, but for me, with a moderate swing speed, there is definitely a difference between the apex pro 5 iron and the epic forged 6.  They go the same distance but do not get there in the same way.  Also, despite that many people claim forgiveness is not real, slight misses are punished so much less.  
 

im not sure if I’m arguing against you or supporting that “it’s not ego”.  I kinda see both sides, and wonder if it is different for high swing speed guys.  For me, there is definitely a difference between a blade and a p790 that goes beyond the numbers on the club.  The more loft, the less it effects me, but the longer the iron the more difference it seems to make to me.  I’m always open to the idea that it’s my subconscious doing things though 😂 

 I’ve got an Epic Forged “6” iron as well that get’s swapped with my 26* hybrid now and then. Similar distance, different flights.

Edited January 28, 2021 by RainShadow

[TheDeanAbides]

8 minutes ago, RainShadow said:

 Well, you are a + handicap, or an elite player according to your profile.

I don’t really care too much about the about what others hit, or how far they hit certain clubs. 
  I only care about my game. 
 It is all about ego. Guys complaining about “jacked lofts” are just as egotistical as those who say the hit their 5 iron length and lofted “7” iron 200yrds.

 These threads crack me up.

There's actually a lot of truth to that.

[chippa13]

Sounds more like injured ego for those railing about this. I don't care what number is on the bottom of my 170 club. I just want it to go 170.

[Tree Levino]

13 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

There's actually a lot of truth to that.

Guys, I'm not saying the players who like these irons have ego issues. My point is more so that manufacturers are playing on ego. Bigger clubs with CGs down and back, deep cavities, stronger lofts 1) go further compared to what is on the bottom and 2) feel less harsh when miss hit when compared to a mega small CB or blade. Obviously when trying clubs in a sim, many guys who have older clubs with more traditional lofts are going to think "wow this 7i goes further and it feels better". In reality though, I feel like the harshness of the feel of a blade doesn't actually translate in the result. In the end though whether you hit the ball as far, further, or shorter than me, it's still going to go X number for Y loft. So do you want to pressure your scoring clubs or the long end more? I believe in peak height as a factor in forgiveness. Many slower golfers should stop their irons around 27* or 30* and go to hybrids to help gapping! 

 

As an aside, I am not an ego guy with my clubs, I've only stated my yardages as they directly relate to the core of this discussion. Please don't judge before you've played with me. I'm always the guy taking more club and hitting a knockdown or cut so I can get on the putting surface as much as possible. I have a buddy who consistently brags about hitting his PW 170 yards. I don't talk about what I hit unless someone specifically asks me (non match play of course ;)). I will point out I beat that buddy every round as he just tries to pound everything. He played college and didn't do that well in that setting because he doesn't understand that irons are precision tools and just tries to hit them as far as he can. 

Edited January 28, 2021 by TigerInTheWoods

[TheDeanAbides]

4 minutes ago, TigerInTheWoods said:

Guys, I'm not saying the players who like these irons have ego issues. My point is more so that manufacturers are playing on ego. Bigger clubs with CGs down and back, deep cavities, stronger lofts 1) go further compared to what is on the bottom and 2) feel less harsh when miss hit when compared to a mega small CB or blade. Obviously when trying clubs in a sim, many guys who have older clubs with more traditional lofts are going to think "wow this 7i goes further and it feels better". In reality though, I feel like the harshness of the feel of a blade doesn't actually translate in the result. In the end though whether you hit the ball as far, further, or shorter than me, it's still going to go X number for Y loft. So do you want to pressure your scoring clubs or the long end more? I believe in peak height as a factor in forgiveness. Many slower golfers should stop their irons around 27* or 30* and go to hybrids to help gapping! 

I wasn't thinking of you when I agreed with the above. It just hit home that the whole argument about loft jacking does often come with a lot of ego attached in both directions. 

 

I've been just as guilty as others of bemoaning loft jacking and the players who boast about their jacked 7 iron going further than a more traditional loft. Why should I care? Why should anyone? Yeah, it could be motivated by altruism, but it's also often motivated by ego. 

Live and let live, innit. 

Edited January 28, 2021 by TheDeanAbides

[disco111]

The untold equation in the distance debate is swing speed. Regardless of what loft a particular club should have, if you don't have the SS then the club will not produce the desired results. This is the bane for senior golfers, but with a caveat........if they have been playing for many years and have reached a decided parity with ability, then going to stronger lofted clubs would/should be beneficial for their enjoyment of the game. Be it either mental, physical or both, it's easier to be hitting a 7 iron as opposed to a 4 or 5 iron.   

[Drivingrangehero]

I’ve said this before. 

 

the difference in distance between my MP-67 6 iron and MP 20 HMB was 4 yards carry (shorter on the HMB, probably due to shaft length and profile. The loft on the MP67  6iron is identical to the MP20 HMB7 iron. Since I’ve recently moved into a 1/2 inch over shaft in my MP20 HMB the differences are within 1-2 yards ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

Since the number changed on the bottom, I now carry a PW46* GW51* SW55*  LW60*
 

Before stronger lofting I carried a PW 49* GW53* and SW57*

So I added a club down low, and dropped one up top, which was beneficial since I was terrible with my 3 wood. It was just a dead space in my bag that might move me away from a possible 4 on a par 5, to a certain 6 to 7 🤢 

If you are a higher swing speed player, some of these super strong lofts wouldn’t be much benefit, because you’d have to gap form 150 yard and in with PW AW GW SW LW, but I can see it benefiting people with slower swing speeds.  To each their own. 

[BallerNate]

11 hours ago, TigerInTheWoods said:

You’d think that. Caught a couple clean with each, next to no difference. Hit a couple out the toe on each, not much difference. This is ball speed. My guess is launch comes down a touch and club face would twist a bit more with the blade which might lead to a couple more yards of distance loss but you’d be surprised how little the tech helps. 
 

Compare the ball speed drop offs on the blades to the “tech irons” in that video. 
 

 

Great video, thanks for posting! Tough to figure out all the differences in clubs and the different categories...this definitely helps to get it all straightened out.

[bladehunter]

12 hours ago, TigerInTheWoods said:

So I’m hitting balls into the net tonight with launch monitor. My dad has his clubs sitting there and has a P790 demo he was trying out so I decided to compare to my backup set. 
 

Club A: P730 6i lofted at 31* 

 

Club B: P790 7i lofted at 30.5*

 

Both clubs within a quarter inch of each other. 
 

Both clubs carrying between 200-205y repeatedly. Ball speed identical. Smash identical. Both are essentially the same loft. One is apparently a tech filled rocket launcher one is pure blade. 
 

Loft for loft, it’s smoke and mirrors - they’re the same. The difference is I’m playing 5-AW in one set or 4-PW in the other. 
 

If it’s not about telling your buddies that you smoothed a 7i 180 I don’t know what else to tell you. 

Post of the century.   Amen.  +1 and bravo. 

[bladehunter]

54 minutes ago, RainShadow said:

 Well, you are a + handicap, or an elite player according to your profile.

I don’t really care too much about the about what others hit, or how far they hit certain clubs. 
  I only care about my game. 
 It is all about ego. Guys complaining about “jacked lofts” are just as egotistical as those who say the hit their 5 iron length and lofted “7” iron 200yrds.

 These threads crack me up.

True.  But you’re the first guy I’ve seen admit the ego side of things with the jacked loft crowd.  It’s is two sided.  But it’s always the jacked loft guys claiming bruised egos are why we mention them.  In truth it’s that we hate the lies that people buy.  

[BlackDiamondPar5]

4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Post of the century.   Amen.  +1 and bravo. 

@TigerInTheWoods had better be careful.  The club manufacturers don't like this truth.  Someday when he's least expecting it, there will be 3 men wearing dark sunglasses in dark suits, riding in a black van and will pull up to him throw him into the van and he will never be heard from again.  🙂

[bladehunter]

Just now, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

@TigerInTheWoods had better be careful.  The club manufacturers don't like this truth.  Someday when he's least expecting it, there will be 3 men wearing dark sunglasses in dark suits, riding in a black van and will pull up to him throw him into the van and he will never be heard from again.  🙂

Lol. Yep.  
 

 

and we’ve all been sucked into it.  Myself included. I catch myself saying “ I hit that pw farther “ and then I remember “ oh wait. It’s 45 degrees.  That’s a 9 iron in my old set “.   And oh yea.  In this set I have to have a 50 degree gap wedge.  Hmmm.  Same exact thing. Different stamps. 

[LeoLeo99]

4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

True.  But you’re the first guy I’ve seen admit the ego side of things with the jacked loft crowd.  It’s is two sided.  But it’s always the jacked loft guys claiming bruised egos are why we mention them.  In truth it’s that we hate the lies that people buy.  

 

There is a guy I play with that likes to ask what club I'm hitting. We both play jacked loft irons.  It's always more club than he thinks.  I outdrive him by a lot but his club head speed is faster than mine.  He doesn't make good contact.  But in short irons he can make decent contact but he swings hard while I swing smooth and I actually enjoy hitting more club and hitting it closer than the does.  That's another type of ego I'm guilty of.

[cflo2382]

@TigerInTheWoods It sounds like you're hitting that backup P730 set just fine and need to move those tour issue MC-501s my way! 😉

[bladehunter]

6 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

 

There is a guy I play with that likes to ask what club I'm hitting. We both play jacked loft irons.  It's always more club than he thinks.  I outdrive him by a lot but his club head speed is faster than mine.  He doesn't make good contact.  But in short irons he can make decent contact but he swings hard while I swing smooth and I actually enjoy hitting more club and hitting it closer than the does.  That's another type of ego I'm guilty of.

Yep. I get that.  I’ll admit to that too. I hit a lot of club , a lot of the time.  And guys who know me don’t club off me a lot. One guy being the exception. We’re pretty similar.    I just don’t prefer to swing very hard a lot of the times.  And I also prefer the ball down and controlled.  I smile t myself when  guys pay attention t what I’m hitting.  So yep. Guilty of that too