Ground forces = game changer

[me05501]

For the last six months or so I’ve been focusing on learning to understand and apply ground forces and trying to commit to a lower-body focused swing on the course. 
 

There are a lot of instructors talking about this these days. The Downunder Board and other training aids are designed to help you feel it. The AMG Speed System content is heavily focused on this concept. I’ve seen Danny Maude and Clay Ballard post vids on it recently.
 

Basically it’s learning how the best players make a powerful, proper weight shift and applying it to your swing.  
 

This concept has benefitted my full swing game tremendously. I’ve gained distance and accuracy with my driver, and my confidence is climbing with every round. 
 

My favorite part is what getting the lower body shift right does to the rest of my swing. The upper body motions just sort of fall into place and I’m not thinking about my plane or grip or hand position or any of the things that can be a mental and physical rabbit hole. 
 

One of the big ideas within the ground forces discussion is that your weight should get on and off of your trail foot much sooner than what comes naturally for most of us. The AMG guys point out that most handicap players turn their shoulders first and only shift their weight once their range of motion forces them to do so. They demonstrate how pros do to opposite, getting their weight to the trail foot almost immediately and then transitioning back toward the lead foot as the arms are still turning back. 

If you get this feeling down, you’ll notice our backswing gets shorter and your follow through begins to feature that full release and balanced finish that great players have.  
 

When I started playing with this back in the fall I was engaged with a local pro I like a lot. He uses a Trackman set up, but doesn’t have pressure plates. We spent several lessons trying to get my plane and hand positions in more ideal positions. It was frustrating for me because it seemed like I was fighting my decades-old habits and losing. 
 

I had been toying with the ground forces concept on the side, and finally at my most recent lesson I decided to focus on feeling the lower body stuff I’ve learned. The pro said “What’s different? Your hands are right where we want them, you’re making better contact and delivering the club head just how I want to see it.” The only thing I had changed was my lower body. Getting the weight shift right “corrected” a lot of things that weren’t really all that wrong in the first place. They were just out of place because my weight shift and its timing were wrong. 
 

The thing is, it’s very hard to see someone‘s weight shift between their feet with the naked eye. I think maybe this is where Trackman and trying to achieve dynamic positions in a static way can fail the student. The lightbulb went off for me as I watched the AMG videos that overlay the club path over the foot pressure information. Big time a-ha moment for me. 

Not selling anything here, just sharing my experience. Worth digging in if you find yourself struggling. 

 

[dn0614]

What would you say would be the best starting point to dig into this?

[PracticeSwinger]

On 1/31/2021 at 10:05 AM, me05501 said:

One of the big ideas within the ground forces discussion is that your weight should get on and off of your trail foot much sooner than what comes naturally for most of us. The AMG guys point out that most handicap players turn their shoulders first and only shift their weight once their range of motion forces them to do so. They demonstrate how pros do to opposite, getting their weight to the trail foot almost immediately and then transitioning back toward the lead foot as the arms are still turning back. 

If you get this feeling down, you’ll notice our backswing gets shorter and your follow through begins to feature that full release and balanced finish that great players have.  

Agreed - 'loading up' is done by LAP in the backswing (extending that trail side) and you can 'drop' dynamically to your lead side from there (pressure shift) - you are anchored against too much lateral sway; (transition : just a tad of Rose drill to help hands lowering and sync up to your core - without trail shoulder droping) all systems go for rotational forces - powerful and balanced rotation to follow through... 'swoosh'... indeed, game changer

Edited February 1, 2021 by MtlJayMan

[me05501]

46 minutes ago, dn0614 said:

What would you say would be the best starting point to dig into this?

 

I mentioned several resources in the OP. This recent Danny Maude video is okay. I got way more from the AMG Speed System but that is a paid program. 

 

 

[golfsticks]

On 1/31/2021 at 10:05 AM, me05501 said:

For the last six months or so I’ve been focusing on learning to understand and apply ground forces and trying to commit to a lower-body focused swing on the course. 

 

Worth digging in if you find yourself struggling. 

 

 

The ground rewards digging in.

Edited February 1, 2021 by golfsticks

[golfsticks]

2 hours ago, dn0614 said:

What would you say would be the best starting point to dig into this?

 

Using proper spikes.  

[airjammer]

6 hours ago, dn0614 said:

What would you say would be the best starting point to dig into this?

https://instagram.com/sfgolfperform?igshid=1oqii07elj78x
 

Steve Furlonger has a lot of stuff on gfr

[Liveonce]

I wonder How much pros use the ground in wedges vs irons vs driver

[dn0614]

10 hours ago, me05501 said:

 

I mentioned several resources in the OP. This recent Danny Maude video is okay. I got way more from the AMG Speed System but that is a paid program. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, airjammer said:

https://instagram.com/sfgolfperform?igshid=1oqii07elj78x
 

Steve Furlonger has a lot of stuff on gfr

Thank you 

[me05501]

A lightbulb went on for me when I heard the swing described as an athletic motion.

 

It seems obvious that it ought to be that, but so often we get distracted by hitting checkpoints or feeling tension or trying to steer the ball or worrying where it’s going to end up, and we short circuit our natural instincts that allow us all to throw a baseball or swing an axle without thinking about it. 
 

Focusing on a ground-up swing is way simpler and allows your upper body to naturally do what is proper to get the club moving fast. Seems like the faster it moves, the more tapped into my lizard brain instincts I feel. 
 

 

[tthomasgolfer605]

I still use Hybrid metal spikes. I make sure I don't walk in the clubhouse with them. Haven't been caught yet. If I have to walk on a cart path for a bit, I develop a sudden severe cough. You can really feel the ground better with them.

[wagolfer7]

4 hours ago, Liveonce said:

I wonder How much pros use the ground in wedges vs irons vs driver

 

Go to the BodiTrak website.  Ton of info and videos on this.  It's really interesting in the short game as well.  

[shellback]

Mike Malaska has some videos available on You tube on this weight shift concept. To me he has a simple way of explaining this and other concepts.

[Arn]

Having been an avid golfer in the mid nineties to about the mid 2000s, then getting busy with life/injuries, I’m blown away by how much better instruction is and how much more sense it makes to work ground up. All I remember about the ground from then was that we were supposed to transfer the weight and restrict the hip turn. For the most part teaching was all about club positions going back. Rediscovering the game and this new vein of teaching has been great for me. Swinging no longer hurts my back and I play better than ever. Ground up is the way to go!

[me05501]

1 hour ago, shellback said:

Mike Malaska has some videos available on You tube on this weight shift concept. To me he has a simple way of explaining this and other concepts.

 

His advice on putting and getting the body properly aligned to the intended putting line has been another big help to me. It feels a bit like cheating to be honest...very simple and easy but super effective.  

[TheDeanAbides]

Marcus Bell at Zen Golf teaches this way around. His lessons are fascinating to watch on YouTube. 

[me05501]

Another great day off the tee for me in winter conditions, all layered up and muddy fairways. Still feeling super in-control off the tee and reaching places I don't normally reach. Can't wait for summer!

[zacgolf]

Latest video from Marcus using the ground 

 

 

 

httpshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62kBlDh-Wlw://youtu.be/62kBlDh-Wlw

[PracticeSwinger]

Quick question for the WRX gurus on GF - we often see the COP trace patterns along the diverse swing positions to see where it should 'generally' be all the way through - but any idea on the amount of force applied relative to body weight from the top players versus high cappers?...

 

I'm asking because it seems that problems can arise (at least mine!) when we're 'floating', moving the COP back and forth (extending the trail side / pulling up - and falling dynamically to the lead side) without any grasp / push of the ground -> dancing / swaying... or is that my misconception and we should do it this way because when 'anchoring' ourselves by pushing hard - it reduces body motion capacities?...

 

Seems to me that top guys are pushing hard at different moments - I know extreme examples but : Berkshire right foot stomp / takeaway - Rory squat at top/transition - Wolff/Thomas left foot 'jump backwards' in the hitting area...

[jmkenn0]

So this applies to maybe 5 people who are in this forum, but I played Tennis most of my younger days, and am left-handed (but play golf right-handed).  My swing feel is essentially my backhand from the waist down.  Transitioning to the left foot while rotating, but also feeling like your pushing up on your toes (topspin backhand).  

 

I am planning on trying to consciously roll my left foot more on the follow-through though to relieve some pressure on my left knee - those years spent on Tennis courts don't really do much for the knees. 

[PracticeSwinger]

8 minutes ago, jmkenn0 said:

So this applies to maybe 5 people who are in this forum, but I played Tennis most of my younger days, and am left-handed (but play golf right-handed).  My swing feel is essentially my backhand from the waist down.  Transitioning to the left foot while rotating, but also feeling like your pushing up on your toes (topspin backhand).  

 

I am planning on trying to consciously roll my left foot more on the follow-through though to relieve some pressure on my left knee - those years spent on Tennis courts don't really do much for the knees. 

Great analogy - and I'm one of those five people... do you feel like you need to have a really closed and narrow stance in order to shift that pressure correctly?... every time I try to feel like the golf swing is either that two handed tennis backhand / left handed frisbee throw / right handed underneath rock skip - I need for my stance to be closed (or otherwise lead pressure seems already in my heel and I can't pushback) and somewhat narrow (otherwise my lead knee is too much inward, causing hip slide forward)

[wagolfer7]

3 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

Quick question for the WRX gurus on GF - we often see the COP trace patterns along the diverse swing positions to see where it should 'generally' be all the way through - but any idea on the amount of force applied relative to body weight from the top players versus high cappers?...

 

I'm asking because it seems that problems can arise (at least mine!) when we're 'floating', moving the COP back and forth (extending the trail side / pulling up - and falling dynamically to the lead side) without any grasp / push of the ground -> dancing / swaying... or is that my misconception and we should do it this way because when 'anchoring' ourselves by pushing hard - it reduces body motion capacities?...

 

Seems to me that top guys are pushing hard at different moments - I know extreme examples but : Berkshire right foot stomp / takeaway - Rory squat at top/transition - Wolff/Thomas left foot 'jump backwards' in the hitting area...

 

It's funny - I'm surprised this isn't discussed more.  This was a big light bulb for me a few years ago.  

 

Here's a pretty old article:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/david-leadbetter-power

 

You can also look up PGA BodiTrak results.  That goes way into way more detail since the ground force plate technology was released.  

 

If I remember correctly Jason Day had like 165% or higher pressure around P5.  

 

My advice to any trying to do this - naturally you think it's best to "push" into the ground to get this.  However - if you turn correctly and do other things correctly - the pressure in the ground "naturally" builds up.  Twisting / Grinding / Pushing your feet into the ground - will increase the pressure and feel powerful - but can make your COP trace inconsistent and not move correctly.  

 

Limiting or eliminating sway - and keeping that trail leg solid - bracing that pressure - engages the big muscles and increases ground pressure by a lot.  

 

That article above - started my path to becoming a better golfer.  Certainly didn't happen over night or in one season.  But that article was the beginning of learning how to use the ground correctly and generate more power and consistency.  

 

 

 

[glk]

3 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

Quick question for the WRX gurus on GF - we often see the COP trace patterns along the diverse swing positions to see where it should 'generally' be all the way through - but any idea on the amount of force applied relative to body weight from the top players versus high cappers?...

 

I'm asking because it seems that problems can arise (at least mine!) when we're 'floating', moving the COP back and forth (extending the trail side / pulling up - and falling dynamically to the lead side) without any grasp / push of the ground -> dancing / swaying... or is that my misconception and we should do it this way because when 'anchoring' ourselves by pushing hard - it reduces body motion capacities?...

 

Seems to me that top guys are pushing hard at different moments - I know extreme examples but : Berkshire right foot stomp / takeaway - Rory squat at top/transition - Wolff/Thomas left foot 'jump backwards' in the hitting area...

This may be of interest.    first 14 minutes talks about how footwear can affect grf but then Scott dives right into things from there going through horizontal, torque, and vertical along with drills followed by Crossfield joining into the discussion.     Not talking COP but rather GRF.

And these forces remarkably happen in a very similar sequence unlike the kinematic sequence - first horizontal, then torque, and last vertical in order of peak - and they happen really, really early - glide before p5, torque around p5, and vertical around p5.5.

 

fyi swing cat has a free level 1 certification course on their site - I took it and passed, yeah.     To go beyond requires cash money, lol.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by glk

[me05501]

7 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

Limiting or eliminating sway - and keeping that trail leg solid - bracing that pressure - engages the big muscles and increases ground pressure by a lot.  

 

 

Interestingly, the AMG guys have measured a ton of pros and found that they *do* sway off the ball. Per AMG, all of them do it, some only minimally and some more. But there's a big difference in WHEN they do it compared to amateurs. 

 

They show that pros sway off the ball as their very first move during the takeaway. To the player it simply feels like a lateral weight shift from a centered position to a position with more weight on your trail foot, but it is definitely lateral and not from turning. Shift first, then turn. This is followed by a "re-centering" move or shift back toward the target followed by a turn through the ball. A lot of people call that a squat or similar. 

 

So they say great players' pattern is shift/turn, shift/turn. 

 

When I first tried to execute the shift/turn, shift/turn feeling I was overdoing the lateral shift. Once I reined that in and found how much is right for me it felt totally different. More balanced, more powerful, more natural and simpler. 

 

When an amateur sways it is usually backwards from the pro pattern. They turn first and *then* shift (or sway) after they run out of range of motion. Then they turn down through the ball from there and maybe try to shift their weight back toward the target at some point (or more often, they don't even get their weight back toward the target until it's too late). 

 

So AMG says the amateur's pattern is turn/shift, turn/shift, or the opposite of the pro pattern.

 

It's easy to notice someone swaying off the ball at the end of their shoulder turn and realizing that is a destructive move. It makes some sense to tell them not to sway. OTOH our brains work better when they are telling our bodies to DO something rather than to NOT do something, especially if the something is a long-standing habit. 

 

The swing thought of "don't sway" adds tension and can cause us to try to hold our lower body too rigidly when it really needs to move. 

 

 

 

[jmkenn0]

1 hour ago, MtlJayMan said:

Great analogy - and I'm one of those five people... do you feel like you need to have a really closed and narrow stance in order to shift that pressure correctly?... every time I try to feel like the golf swing is either that two handed tennis backhand / left handed frisbee throw / right handed underneath rock skip - I need for my stance to be closed (or otherwise lead pressure seems already in my heel and I can't pushback) and somewhat narrow (otherwise my lead knee is too much inward, causing hip slide forward)

 

One-handed backhand 🙂 - I actually think that makes a big difference in this analogy because that's a very "left side" move, you're really pulling with your left top half while pushing/rotating with your bottom half.

 

My (good) sequence is this - I'm usually trying to keep my weight more on my toes, so when I transition, my first move it to push forward with my right foot, weight on my big toe, and simultaneously I'm rotating my left back pocket backwards/rolling my left foot, but I'm always trying to keep some flex in my knees to stay balanced.  

 

My (bad) sequence is almost always either my upper body starts first causing my weight to stall out on my back foot, or instead of weight shift then rotate I rotate and spin out on my back foot.  

 

 

[wagolfer7]

15 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

Interestingly, the AMG guys have measured a ton of pros and found that they *do* sway off the ball. Per AMG, all of them do it, some only minimally and some more. But there's a big difference in WHEN they do it compared to amateurs. 

 

 

 

I was just speaking generally.  Most amateurs heads / hips sway off the ball.  It kills any pressure gain when you move off the ball too much.  

 

Feels vs Real.  It feels to me - that I need to not sway - which I'm sure there is still minimal sway.  I would still say it's a good thought for most.    

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

9 minutes ago, jmkenn0 said:

 

One-handed backhand 🙂 - I actually think that makes a big difference in this analogy because that's a very "left side" move, you're really pulling with your left top half while pushing/rotating with your bottom half.

We're getting into something here! (sorry to all the other guys that obivously can't relate; left handed tennis + right handed golf)... because; when doing the one handed backhand - I do feel that the top half is disconnected from the bottom - thus golf equivalent; a down the line release (chest/shoulders stalling) even though lead hip is pushed back... while a two-handed backhand feels more of a rotational release; low and left in the golf equivalent (hips, chest, shoulders all opening)... and I don't really know which one is best

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, glk said:

This may be of interest.    first 14 minutes talks about how footwear can affect grf but then Scott dives right into things from there going through horizontal, torque, and vertical along with drills followed by Crossfield joining into the discussion.     Not talking COP but rather GRF.

And these forces remarkably happen in a very similar sequence unlike the kinematic sequence - first horizontal, then torque, and last vertical in order of peak - and they happen really, really early - glide before p5, torque around p5, and vertical around p5.5.

 

fyi swing cat has a free level 1 certification course on their site - I took it and passed, yeah.     To go beyond requires cash money, lol.

 

 

That video is awesome - thanks!... I'll dig into it and will certainly have a few questions; how to create optimally these forces & put on the brakes for all 3 (what to feel; where/when to push and how) to transfer the energy correctly to the club/ball 

Edited February 4, 2021 by MtlJayMan

[J295]

Wondering what devices might be recommended? Boditrack?

 

One data point is that one of my 60 year old friends is a five times state champion and in the state amateur golf Hall of Fame, and he got force plate mats last summer and has been going gaga over them ever since.   He’s put me on them a few times, but I think now in the deep freeze of winter it might be helpful to get my own to work on set up and some other moves inside.   Thinking that without consistent feedback just jumping on his every now and again is entertaining but not real helpful.  
 

Appreciate all insights.

[johnrobison]

12 minutes ago, J295 said:

Wondering what devices might be recommended? Boditrack?

 

One data point is that one of my 60 year old friends is a five times state champion and in the state amateur golf Hall of Fame, and he got force plate mats last summer and has been going gaga over them ever since.   He’s put me on them a few times, but I think now in the deep freeze of winter it might be helpful to get my own to work on set up and some other moves inside.   Thinking that without consistent feedback just jumping on his every now and again is entertaining but not real helpful.  
 

Appreciate all insights.

For the price, I like the Salted Golf insoles. If I had a permanent practice station, I'd think pretty seriously about spending a few grand to include a pressure mat. I lieu of that, I can get some pretty good info from the insoles whether it's just doing some simple drills in the garage, or using them in practice at the range.