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Ground forces = game changer


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34 minutes ago, J295 said:

Wondering what devices might be recommended? Boditrack?

 

One data point is that one of my 60 year old friends is a five times state champion and in the state amateur golf Hall of Fame, and he got force plate mats last summer and has been going gaga over them ever since.   He’s put me on them a few times, but I think now in the deep freeze of winter it might be helpful to get my own to work on set up and some other moves inside.   Thinking that without consistent feedback just jumping on his every now and again is entertaining but not real helpful.  
 

Appreciate all insights.

A boditrak pressure mat can run $5k.   The swing cat 3D motion plate system (force plates, camera, software, etc) is $20k+
 

they do have rental options with monthly payments.

Edited by glk
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For the last six months or so I’ve been focusing on learning to understand and apply ground forces and trying to commit to a lower-body focused swing on the course.    There are a lot of instru

Marcus Bell at Zen Golf teaches this way around. His lessons are fascinating to watch on YouTube. 

Thanks for the information on options. I was flying a bit blind here and didn’t realize they are fairly pricey.  Maybe I’ll just have to keep flipping through impact due to a poor pressure transfer. Ha ha.  
 

Found out my friend got his at V1 Sports.   

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13 hours ago, J295 said:

Wondering what devices might be recommended? Boditrack?

 

One data point is that one of my 60 year old friends is a five times state champion and in the state amateur golf Hall of Fame, and he got force plate mats last summer and has been going gaga over them ever since.   He’s put me on them a few times, but I think now in the deep freeze of winter it might be helpful to get my own to work on set up and some other moves inside.   Thinking that without consistent feedback just jumping on his every now and again is entertaining but not real helpful.  
 

Appreciate all insights.

The Down Under Board (or even just a piece of cut plyboard) is the best way to feel the forces, if that's what you mean.

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9 minutes ago, Sean2 said:

I have tried to squat during the transition, but haven't had much success. I don't know if it's a function of age (I am 65), lack of athletic ability, or both. 

Think of it as a diagonal line of stretch. As your arms are going just past left arm parallel you begin to squat down into the left side. This dynamic separation is the same as what happens when you throw a ball. 

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29 minutes ago, me05501 said:

This is also very good.

 

 

This was very well explained / simple terms... only caveat I would have is on widening the stance to generate torque - you can have the same amount of 'turn' (hipbone going back and forth around the sacrum) with a narrow stance... getting wider definitely adds stability - but it can be a sneaky b*tch, because doing so, there is a tendency to 'turn' / load the hip over the foot -> too much sway (back and forth)... just a thing to experiment and keep in mind; finding your sweet spot to generate maximum torque without excessive sway 

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4 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

This was very well explained / simple terms... only caveat I would have is on widening the stance to generate torque - you can have the same amount of 'turn' (hipbone going back and forth around the sacrum) with a narrow stance... getting wider definitely adds stability - but it can be a sneaky b*tch, because doing so, there is a tendency to 'turn' / load the hip over the foot -> too much sway (back and forth)... just a thing to experiment and keep in mind; finding your sweet spot to generate maximum torque without excessive sway 


Yeah I’ve found that getting my feet too wide can lock my hips and prevent the turn I want. 

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2 hours ago, Barfolomew said:

Cliff Notes pls.... yowser

Use ground forces to generate speed
Pushing into ground creates force in opposite direction -> in order to transfer energy from body to club / ball

 

Ideally 3 forces in sequence - different amount for different type of players/release:
1. horizontal - stop it with lead foot pressure / adding lead knee flex / 'squat' ->top of backswing
2. torque - lead foot pushback / trail foot push forward -> transition
3. vertical - lead foot push up -> lead arm parralel downswing to club parralel

... pow!

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9 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Use ground forces to generate speed
Pushing into ground creates force in opposite direction -> in order to transfer energy from body to club / ball

 

Ideally 3 forces in sequence - different amount for different type of players/release:
1. horizontal - stop it with lead foot pressure / adding lead knee flex / 'squat' ->top of backswing
2. torque - lead foot pushback / trail foot push forward -> transition
3. vertical - lead foot push up -> lead arm parralel downswing to club parralel

... pow!

Sounds like the downunder board is ideal for this?

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48 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

Not everyone should try to maximize or even increase vertical forces, nor should they think shear, torque and normal forces should be balanced.

 

Dustin Johnson uses very little vertical force in his swing. Dustin Thomas uses a lot of vertical force.

 

There is a reason for that...

While this is a great way to pick up some speed for many people, I totally agree with the notion that not everyone should necessarily be trying to maximize these forces. There's definitely something to be gained but risks as well.

 

Not here to argue about the best swings in the world, but I do have a bit different take on the DJ - JT comparison. While JT is of course using plenty of ground force, so is DJ. Both vertical and rotational. It's just a lot more subtle looking when it comes to actual seen movement in the lower body. In fact, he's a perfect model for one of the key things that have helped me use the ground better. The first move of the lead shoulder in transition is heavily downward, which gives him a ton of leverage/force/whatever to push from. Great video in also demonstrating how low his head stays until pushed up/back from front leg. Sorry if the explanation is messy, english isn't my first language

 

 

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3 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

Not everyone should try to maximize or even increase vertical forces, nor should they think shear, torque and normal forces should be balanced.

 

Dustin Johnson uses very little vertical force in his swing. Dustin Thomas uses a lot of vertical force.

 

There is a reason for that...

While I do agree that no one should look to try and maximize all 3 forces - unless you want to swing like Kyle Berkshire... and even he does it for long drive reasons and not ‘to play golf’...

 

But I do think that people generally underestimate the pure amount of forces pros use in their ‘balanced’ swings... DJ in comparison to JT uses little vertical force, DJ relatively to his torque uses little vertical force... but I’m willing to bet that on an absolute measure - he surpasses the vast majority of WRXers, just in a more ‘subtle’ / ‘easy’ / ‘balanced’ way...

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On 2/1/2021 at 10:36 PM, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I still use Hybrid metal spikes. I make sure I don't walk in the clubhouse with them. Haven't been caught yet. If I have to walk on a cart path for a bit, I develop a sudden severe cough. You can really feel the ground better with them.

Where do you purchase those bad boys?

 

I miss metal spikes. Wooo!

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Glad to hear the op is having success with this endeavor. This is the exact path I’m on. I’ve been watching the same videos (AMG and Malaska) and it just makes so much sense. So far the slow motion swings feel good and hitting into a net feels solid. Like the op said, a naturally shorter backswing and a fuller follow through. It will be at least 8 weeks before the snow is gone and flight can be confirmed but I’m very optimistic. 

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On 2/10/2021 at 12:21 PM, MtlJayMan said:

Ideally 3 forces in sequence - different amount for different type of players/release...

This post/topic spurred my interest in diving deeper into the rabbit hole and learning more about my own ability to master these forces.  No evidence or insights yet but I do have a session scheduled next week with a local instructor who has a Swing Catalyst force plate. 

 

I've been watching a lot of the Swing Catalyst YouTube content over the past week and it's really interesting to see how different pros have strengths and weaknesses around their use of force.  If I remember correctly I think one video showed how Gary Woodland was really strong on the torque measurement but below average on vertical force.

 

I'm expecting I'll come out of my session next week 1) less of a hot mess with how frustrated I am with properly using ground forces and 2) armed with a ton of knowledge and drills to help me unlock some speed.

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4 minutes ago, toddmanley said:

This post/topic spurred my interest in diving deeper into the rabbit hole and learning more about my own ability to master these forces.  No evidence or insights yet but I do have a session scheduled next week with a local instructor who has a Swing Catalyst force plate. 

 

I've been watching a lot of the Swing Catalyst YouTube content over the past week and it's really interesting to see how different pros have strengths and weaknesses around their use of force.  If I remember correctly I think one video showed how Gary Woodland was really strong on the torque measurement but below average on vertical force.

 

I'm expecting I'll come out of my session next week 1) less of a hot mess with how frustrated I am with properly using ground forces and 2) armed with a ton of knowledge and drills to help me unlock some speed.

Really nice - just keep in mind that you want to 'optimize' your GRF and the timing of it all - to transfer it 'effortlessly' to the club/ball... and not 'maximize' them... It's a tendency people have when learning this topic; they want to stomp like Berkshire, torque like Wollf and jump like JT... but definitely a fun way to see when & where you are suboptimal in your swing - and work on it 

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OP here. I agree with the last few posts. Part of the fun of exploring this is learning what your body and mind can handle best and trying to apply that. 
 

I haven’t been on force plates yet but have located a local pro who uses them. My perception is that I can manage more vertical force with my short irons and wedges, but benefit from a more rotational feel with longer clubs. 
 

It seems like a lot of the people who teach using Swing Catalyst like to point to Justin Thomas or other extreme examples that most of us would be foolish to try to follow. 
 

If I was going to choose a swing to emulate I’d probably be smart to pick one from the LPGA!!

 

We’ve always used *some* level of ground forces in our swings. We just didn’t know it and couldn’t measure it. Now that we can it’s easy to try and overdo it. 

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22 minutes ago, me05501 said:

OP here. I agree with the last few posts. Part of the fun of exploring this is learning what your body and mind can handle best and trying to apply that. 
 

I haven’t been on force plates yet but have located a local pro who uses them. My perception is that I can manage more vertical force with my short irons and wedges, but benefit from a more rotational feel with longer clubs. 
 

It seems like a lot of the people who teach using Swing Catalyst like to point to Justin Thomas or other extreme examples that most of us would be foolish to try to follow. 
 

If I was going to choose a swing to emulate I’d probably be smart to pick one from the LPGA!!

 

We’ve always used *some* level of ground forces in our swings. We just didn’t know it and couldn’t measure it. Now that we can it’s easy to try and overdo it. 

Yep, the only way to avoid using ground forces is to swing in the air. 

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