What do we think of Faldo’s short tee idea?

[milesgiles]

 

 

In the last thread I saw on this topic, the same questions kept getting answered multiple times through dozens of pages, so I’ve tried to put it altogether, as far as it got, in this one post, and we can bring some fresh thoughts to the discussion.

 

Proposed ball rollbacks get kicked about a lot on wrx. Despite the governing bodies discussing this for years, nothing has been done and I don’t believe should be. Amateurs don’t want it, nobody wants to bifurcate the game. It also means relatively long hitting becoming even more important, since these are the only guys who can now reach long holes with scoring clubs.

 

The case for short tees and/or smaller clubheads 

 

The problem, as I see it:

 

1. The 460 clubhead and a high tee has led to pro’s carrying trouble in a way that architects could never envisage

2. This counts for too much relative to other parts of the game. Balance between skill and power is being lost.

3. Tees get pushed ever further back, golf courses take up ever bigger acreages, rounds take longer. 

4. Many classic golf courses are no longer useable for tournaments. 

5. Spectators are increasingly unlikely to even be able to see the ball in flight. 

6.  The game is too one dimensional, too many players simply trying to get it within wedge distance on any hole, fairway or not. Fewer clubs are used on approach shots.

7. Golfers themselves are becoming homogenised into big, powerful athletes able to swing at 120mph plus.  Used to be a game for all shapes and sizes, because there were a lot of ways to skin the cat. Trevino, Faldo, Player. Crenshaw, Ballesteros etc.

8 .Never going to see a truly dominant player again, too much of a level playing field with a ridiculous oversized driver. No more dynasties, few multiple major winners.

9. Self evident the 460 is way too big and forgiving for the professional game. The bigger the effective hitting area, the harder you can swing with less fear of a bad miss. 

 

No one wants to penalise long hitters at all. Long, straight hitting has always been part of the game. If you limit the tee size, the clubhead will likely more resemble a 3 wood with driver loft. Likely this will bring average carries down 20-30 yards. This puts fairway bunkers and other driving distance hazards in play. Certainly a pro could carry it a little further, get some roll, or indeed hit it harder but with the increased risk of a mishit. Long, straight hitting again becomes a valued skill. Golf as it was intended and always played up until 20 years ago.

 

Good amateurs could do likewise, leave the 460s for double digit caps, seniors etc. Honestly, I think the average amateur could well improve learning to hit a traditional size driver as opposed to wanging away with the toaster on a stick then duffing his next three fairway shots along the floor.

 

Imo golf took a huge misstep when mandating the maximum driver size to 460cc. The best thing about simply changing the tee size is that this could be done immediately in a tour event, as a trial, on any tour anywhere in the world. Smaller headed drivers already exist. No changes to equipment regulations necessary. The better ball strikers on tour should be in favour of such a change if they knew which side their bread was buttered on..

 

For those about to question how you would referee this, again, the answer is already out there. See attached photo  The measurements are for the total tee btw. Any cheaty pro’s are going to leave a visible gap..

 

This is just a first step of course. Thinking it through, manufacturers would not be embracing such a step change initially, from an expense point of view, but is it really any different than when we first went to 460s and everything else became obsolete? Or when we stopped using persimmon? Or steel shafts, etc, etc?

 

Back to the future, wrx.. what reckon?

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by milesgiles

[Hawkeye77]

He sounded a little foolish, then someone pointed out they are limited to 4 inches. 
 

He only seemed to be talking about players teeing it high vs. analyzing equipment, but maybe that was supposed to be implied somehow. 
 

Sounded awkward, IMO. 

[Chadwickog]

What about the guys hitting 3 woods 300 yards?

[Hawkeye77]

Do pros tee it all that high as a general rule? Seems like they don’t and they sure don’t swing up much and many not at all?
 

Wasn’t Nick just looking at Phil with one up as high as he could get it in that particular hole for some Phil reason?

[milesgiles]

10 minutes ago, Chadwickog said:

What about the guys hitting 3 woods 300 yards?

 

 

what about them? If they are carrying it that far, good for them. Like I said, long hitting is not a bad thing in itself, no one is trying to stop the Bryson's or Wolff's 'just because'

[milesgiles]

8 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Do pros tee it all that high as a general rule? Seems like they don’t and they sure don’t swing up much and many not at all?
 

Wasn’t Nick just looking at Phil with one up as high as he could get it in that particular hole for some Phil reason?

 

I didnt hear Faldo at this tournament, this is something he tweeted or forwarded a few months ago, think his initial idea was no tees at all

[Hawkeye77]

6 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

I didnt hear Faldo at this tournament, this is something he tweeted or forwarded a few months ago, think his initial idea was no tees at all

Sorry.  I think it was Phil with one teed way up high and Faldo was on about how high he had the ball teed up and we could solve the distance problem by making them tee it lower.  Didn't realize it was an issue he was really promoting.  

[Creedo77]

23 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Do pros tee it all that high as a general rule? Seems like they don’t and they sure don’t swing up much and many not at all?
 

Wasn’t Nick just looking at Phil with one up as high as he could get it in that particular hole for some Phil reason?

Most don't tee it that high. However, if they're trying to carry trees on either side of the fairway to shape their shot they'll tee it up as high as they can. 

[MPAndreassi]

I enjoy the old courses just as much as anyone, however there’s new people in the game all the time. To them a “traditional” driver is 460cc. Should they be penalized for being born too late or starting the game too late and have to go backwards? Golf has to evolve to survive. At some point the classic courses we all love are going to be forgotten and replaced, it’s just the cycle of life. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by MPAndreassi

[caniac6]

Nick must have a deal with a short tee company.

[tiderider]

agree with smaller club head, but a shorter tee makes zero sense to me with a smaller club head ... tee length changed because the club head changed ... 

[1s1k]

He wants to dial back distance but promotes Sqairz golf shoes??!!  Guy is unreal

[ThinkingPlus]

I think we should all have to play golf with ice skates on (not just pros - RoG are for everyone).  No more ground force utilization will dial back distance.  That will end this debate and put Nick's sponsorship deal in the can. The Old Course and Merion will be saved.  It brings a tear to my eye.

[Hawkeye77]

20 minutes ago, 1s1k said:

He wants to dial back distance but promotes Sqairz golf shoes??!!  Guy is unreal

 

Apparently the heels are too low and they are trying to avoid a big recall.

[Golf10]

I think the ball goes too far for the pros.  Amateurs should keep the equipment.

 

Some ideas:

 

Reduce max CC to 190 (original Big Bertha)

Roll back ball 15 - 20%.  Masters would be a great testing ground

Limit putters to 1.5 inches from face to rear.  Bring back skill to putting.  No more toasters on a stick

[farmer]

I'm so glad someone finally brought up this topic.  Miles, really, again?

[dlygrisse]

The ball goes farther because of a combination of reasons.  
 

Big head, swing hard, don’t worry about miss hit. 
Lighter longer shaft. 
COR, spring face at high speed gives long hitters extra ball speed.  Exponentially more than short hitters. 
Deep face, high tee, launch high with low spin. 
Modern ball launches high with less spin on drives, still spins good with irons.  
Technology, optimize with radar and launch monitor 

Lawn mowers and better agronomy. 
Fitness and technique.  

 

In my opinion the ball should spin more off the driver. If it did they would have to learn to flight the ball down or work it with the wind. They would have to worry about miss hits, hit more smooth shots, especially into the wind. To me the modern ball gives you the best of both worlds, you used to have to choose between spin for all clubs or distance with all clubs.  
 

Nick is right, a lower tee would increase spin and lower launch some, but a modern low lofted 3 wood would still go a long way. Higher spin ball would resolve a lot of this. Get the RPM Over 3k
 

 

[ChipNRun]

Let's also look at the other end of things. No lob wedges for pro tournaments. Have it as a condition of competition, just like the "one ball' rule.

 

All wedges must be 56* or below in loft. This would put a penalty back into wide-and-wild approaches and shots left shortsided.

[dlygrisse]

4 minutes ago, ChipNRun said:

Let's also look at the other end of things. No lob wedges for pro tournaments. Have it as a condition of competition, just like the "one ball' rule.

 

All wedges must be 56* or below in loft. This would put a penalty back into wide-and-wild approaches and shots left shortsided.

I’ve got no issue with high lofted wedges, but if they limited the number of clubs you could carry to say 12, guys would have to make choices.  Most would drop a wedge and probably a longer club. More shotmaking. 

[Creedo77]

25 minutes ago, ChipNRun said:

Let's also look at the other end of things. No lob wedges for pro tournaments. Have it as a condition of competition, just like the "one ball' rule.

 

All wedges must be 56* or below in loft. This would put a penalty back into wide-and-wild approaches and shots left shortsided.

You don't think Pros can manipulate a club face with a 56 degree wedge and turn it into a 58/60/64 to get up/down in difficult spots? Seeing a pros short game on the regular is one of the most absurd aspects of professional golf. It wouldn't change a thing.

 

Most guys can open up 8irons/9irons for fun in a green side bunker and get up and down. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Creedo77

[EddieEdwards]

Faldo also believes square toe shoes increase distance....

[tthomasgolfer605]

I'd say grow the fairways a bit and have some variance in the sand texture. Don't have all the greens perfect either. Basically what most people deal with on a daily basis. 

[Creedo77]

32 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I'd say grow the fairways a bit and have some variance in the sand texture. Don't have all the greens perfect either. Basically what most people deal with on a daily basis. 

These guys are playing the best golf courses in the world, not some goat track. They deal with plenty of elements out there no need to make playing surfaces worse for them 

[drbonesvt]

1 hour ago, dlygrisse said:

The ball goes farther because of a combination of reasons.  
 

Big head, swing hard, don’t worry about miss hit. 
Lighter longer shaft. 
COR, spring face at high speed gives long hitters extra ball speed.  Exponentially more than short hitters. 
Deep face, high tee, launch high with low spin. 
Modern ball launches high with less spin on drives, still spins good with irons.  
Technology, optimize with radar and launch monitor 

Lawn mowers and better agronomy. 
Fitness and technique.  

 

In my opinion the ball should spin more off the driver. If it did they would have to learn to flight the ball down or work it with the wind. They would have to worry about miss hits, hit more smooth shots, especially into the wind. To me the modern ball gives you the best of both worlds, you used to have to choose between spin for all clubs or distance with all clubs.  
 

Nick is right, a lower tee would increase spin and lower launch some, but a modern low lofted 3 wood would still go a long way. Higher spin ball would resolve a lot of this. Get the RPM Over 3k
 

 

Torrey was a good test this weekend ??

 

ball didn’t seem to be rolling 30 yds on the drive which is the case.   PR isn’t a bomber 

 

dont make concrete fairways and have some rough that means something 

 

I like the points though about the head size and forgiveness.  
 

Jack was just a better striker of the ball and longer than everyone else for the most part.   Tiger I think would have enjoyed much of those same dominance over a longer period, but the equipment space race occurred during his run.   The forgiving equipment allowed others to bridge the gap in the later years.   Fitness or the tiger effect yes has developed stronger players but the tech evolution in the equipment lessens the skill making easier to unleash power.  
 

IMOP would be like if they let MLB utilize  composite bats, more players would be blasting it out of the parks and there is would prob be some dead pitchers 

[tthomasgolfer605]

40 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

These guys are playing the best golf courses in the world, not some goat track. They deal with plenty of elements out there no need to make playing surfaces worse for them 

I'm not saying make greens bumpy or anything. Have em at different speeds from day to day. Vary depth of the sand a bit so they have to adjust their technique to hit a good shot. You can have a course look pretty and still make it more challenging. 

[FirstFlight]

If they could tilt some of the interesting teeboxes, so we could see interesting things happen to the pros and thier tee shots...

[golfer929]

What classic courses that always have held events no longer usable?

[elwhippy]

Merion doesn't need protection. It is more than capable of beating up players with modern gear. 

[iBanesto]

7 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

He sounded a little foolish, then someone pointed out they are limited to 4 inches. 
 

He only seemed to be talking about players teeing it high vs. analyzing equipment, but maybe that was supposed to be implied somehow. 
 

Sounded awkward, IMO. 

 

4 inches is short?

 

Geez...

[MattyO1984]

1 hour ago, golfer929 said:

What classic courses that always have held events no longer usable?

 

Not many but then when depending on how you wanted to trick a place up then almost anything is going to be useable. Merion the example that everyone gives. Sure they were able to play, sure scoring was tough. The fairways were soft and the rough was thicker than Patrick Reed. An enjoyable tournament, it was not.