What do we think of Faldo’s short tee idea?

[dlygrisse]

5 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

Tee height feels very artificial, head size will do next to nothing unless you are doing something drastic like halving it, and even then I have doubts. I think nerfing the ball is the only change that makes sense. If you make it spin more they will just adjust equipment to make it spin less. Could be some spillover effects to forgiveness there idk. 

 

I think using Torrey as an example when talking distance doesn't make a ton of sense considering the course can play up to 7800 yards. The conditions that made it difficult seem specific to the time of year, I would expect the US Open to look a lot different, though it will still be difficult. 

I'd be interested to see what the spin is with a balata ball and a modern driver.  Anyone have that data?  They could make a modern 3 or 4 piece ball that spun more without having to resort to rubber bands and a liquid center.  

 

In the end the cat is out of the bag, it's going to be difficult to bring it back, if the groove rule proved anything, it's that you really can't do much at this point, unless you go totally back to 1970's equipment, which is not going to happen, nor should it.  The USGA was asleep at the wheel sometime back in the late 1990's and early 2000's.  They just didn't get on top of it when they should have.  

[Bye]

It was the perfect storm. Titanium, new ball then launch monitors, now force plates and fitness etc.

 

I would rather things were left alone than go down the bifurcation route.

[caniac6]

5 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

Sunningdale is maybe the best uk example. The Old Course SA now extends onto a different course entirely and in average conditions still leaves at least 2/3 driveable par 4s with nowhere else left to extend tees.

Others I’ve played that have held full tour events but can’t anymore, Queens Bournemouth, St Pierre, Fulford, St Mellion(Nicklaus’ first uk design but already outdated), Lindrick, St Anne’s, Moor Park  etc etc. 

How do the members at these courses feel? Are they leaving because they think the courses are too short and easy? The game has evolved since these courses were built. I would imagine most, if not all, of these courses were built when golfers were using wooden shafted clubs, and balls stuffed with feathers. So, do things need to change for the 51 weeks of the year for the members in order to make the course challenging for the one week the most elite players play there? Some courses can no longer host big tournaments, and that is just how it is.

[Frankensteins Monster]

It will have no effect. Pros will find a way to maximize the lower tee and the distance will still be the same with only amateurs suffering. Just like what happened with the groove idiocy.

 

A properly set-up course will challenge the best players regardless of the length.

[jimbonecrusher]

15 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

 

In the last thread I saw on this topic, the same questions kept getting answered multiple times through dozens of pages, so I’ve tried to put it altogether, as far as it got, in this one post, and we can bring some fresh thoughts to the discussion.

 

Proposed ball rollbacks get kicked about a lot on wrx. Despite the governing bodies discussing this for years, nothing has been done and I don’t believe should be. Amateurs don’t want it, nobody wants to bifurcate the game. It also means relatively long hitting becoming even more important, since these are the only guys who can now reach long holes with scoring clubs.

 

The case for short tees and/or smaller clubheads 

 

The problem, as I see it:

 

1. The 460 clubhead and a high tee has led to pro’s carrying trouble in a way that architects could never envisage

2. This counts for too much relative to other parts of the game. Balance between skill and power is being lost.

3. Tees get pushed ever further back, golf courses take up ever bigger acreages, rounds take longer. 

4. Many classic golf courses are no longer useable for tournaments. 

5. Spectators are increasingly unlikely to even be able to see the ball in flight. 

6.  The game is too one dimensional, too many players simply trying to get it within wedge distance on any hole, fairway or not. Fewer clubs are used on approach shots.

7. Golfers themselves are becoming homogenised into big, powerful athletes able to swing at 120mph plus.  Used to be a game for all shapes and sizes, because there were a lot of ways to skin the cat. Trevino, Faldo, Player. Crenshaw, Ballesteros etc.

8 .Never going to see a truly dominant player again, too much of a level playing field with a ridiculous oversized driver. No more dynasties, few multiple major winners.

9. Self evident the 460 is way too big and forgiving for the professional game. The bigger the effective hitting area, the harder you can swing with less fear of a bad miss. 

 

No one wants to penalise long hitters at all. Long, straight hitting has always been part of the game. If you limit the tee size, the clubhead will likely more resemble a 3 wood with driver loft. Likely this will bring average carries down 20-30 yards. This puts fairway bunkers and other driving distance hazards in play. Certainly a pro could carry it a little further, get some roll, or indeed hit it harder but with the increased risk of a mishit. Long, straight hitting again becomes a valued skill. Golf as it was intended and always played up until 20 years ago.

 

Good amateurs could do likewise, leave the 460s for double digit caps, seniors etc. Honestly, I think the average amateur could well improve learning to hit a traditional size driver as opposed to wanging away with the toaster on a stick then duffing his next three fairway shots along the floor.

 

Imo golf took a huge misstep when mandating the maximum driver size to 460cc. The best thing about simply changing the tee size is that this could be done immediately in a tour event, as a trial, on any tour anywhere in the world. Smaller headed drivers already exist. No changes to equipment regulations necessary. The better ball strikers on tour should be in favour of such a change if they knew which side their bread was buttered on..

 

For those about to question how you would referee this, again, the answer is already out there. See attached photo  The measurements are for the total tee btw. Any cheaty pro’s are going to leave a visible gap..

 

This is just a first step of course. Thinking it through, manufacturers would not be embracing such a step change initially, from an expense point of view, but is it really any different than when we first went to 460s and everything else became obsolete? Or when we stopped using persimmon? Or steel shafts, etc, etc?

 

Back to the future, wrx.. what reckon?

 

While your at it, why not just suggest that the game is played with hickory shafts, and tee it within a club length from the hole?  Lets take it all the way back to Scotland and the beginnings.  Yet again, you might also want to get rid of your car, cell phone, microwave, and any other technological developments.

[milesgiles]

6 minutes ago, jimbonecrusher said:

While your at it, why not just suggest that the game is played with hickory shafts, and tee it within a club length from the hole?  Lets take it all the way back to Scotland and the beginnings.  Yet again, you might also want to get rid of your car, cell phone, microwave, and any other technological developments.

 

Straw..man..

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

You don't really think they want a Tour event?

 

I have no insights into Sunningdale membership, lol, but hard to imagine them giving a rip about having fans descend upon them.

 

Sorry was answering about just holding one event, anywhere, with a short tee. Sunningdale still hold the seniors Open, and Open qualifying, and other big amateur opens, so obviously arent a closed shop for tournaments altogether.

 

Many of the current or recent uk tour stops aren't worth £50 to play. Pretty sure the pro's would rather play the classic tests, and I'm certain most of us would prefer watching them on those rather than most of the places they got to last summer..

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, milesgiles said:

 

Sorry was answering about just holding one event, anywhere, with a short tee. Sunningdale still hold the seniors Open, and Open qualifying, and other big amateur opens, so obviously arent a closed shop for tournaments altogether.

 

Many of the current or recent uk tour stops aren't worth £50 to play. Pretty sure the pro's would rather play the classic tests, and I'm certain most of us would prefer watching them on those rather than most of the places they got to last summer..

 

Wow, I knew and totally forgot Sunningdale was hosting the British Senior Open in 2021 -- just heard Monty talking about it a couple of weeks ago.  

[milesgiles]

20 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

It will have no effect. Pros will find a way to maximize the lower tee and the distance will still be the same with only amateurs suffering. Just like what happened with the groove idiocy.

 

A properly set-up course will challenge the best players regardless of the length.

 

We could debate how much effect it would have, but to say a shorter tee and smaller clubhead would have 'no' effect'? I reject your reality..

[Frankensteins Monster]

2 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

We could debate how much effect it would have, but to say a shorter tee and smaller clubhead would have 'no' effect'? I reject your reality..

Where did I mention smaller club head?

[milesgiles]

32 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

How do the members at these courses feel? Are they leaving because they think the courses are too short and easy? The game has evolved since these courses were built. I would imagine most, if not all, of these courses were built when golfers were using wooden shafted clubs, and balls stuffed with feathers. So, do things need to change for the 51 weeks of the year for the members in order to make the course challenging for the one week the most elite players play there? Some courses can no longer host big tournaments, and that is just how it is.

 

just mandating a short tee might.. stress Might.. negate the need to do very much to the course setup at all. At the end of the day I'd rather watch them play Sunningdale than East Sussex, which I wouldn't pull back the curtains to watch if it was in my back garden. And I'm absolutely certain which one the tour would rather go to.

 

 

 

[dbelles1]

Why not be like the MLB and MiLB? They use wooden bats and college and below is allowed metal and composite. Have two sets of rules. One for all the pros and one for all the ams/sunday golfers. 

[milesgiles]

10 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

Where did I mention smaller club head?

 

Mandate a smaller tee, a smaller clubhead, particularly in face depth, will result. I don't think that's a controversial idea.

[Frankensteins Monster]

3 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Mandate a smaller tee, a smaller clubhead, particularly in face depth, will result. I don't think that's a controversial idea.

Not the question I asked. You said a smaller head would have an effect on distance. I asked, "Where did I mention a smaller club head?"

[milesgiles]

7 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

Not the question I asked. You said a smaller head would have an effect on distance. I asked, "Where did I mention a smaller club head?"

 

Th logical conclusion to your point of view is that a smaller tee will mean they still use 460s then. That's your contention, is it?

[MMB1500]

9 hours ago, iBanesto said:

 

4 inches is short?

 

Geez...

 

According to my ex-girlfriend it is, yes. 

[mokedaddy]

The tee solution does not appear to even be on the USGA’s radar.

 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/02/02/usga-distance-report-local-rule-equipment-testing/

 

 

[Sean2]

3 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

I listed about 10 issues.. you don’t agree at all with a single one??

I agree with 3. 6, and 7, but don't agree that a roll-back is needed to address them. 

 

Penal rough, narrower fairways, etc., would address such problems as bomb and gouge and the need for longer tees. This would also require the golfer to play more finesse shots, as well as think his way around the course, as opposed to just hitting it as far as he can and wedging it onto the green. I have read that many venues roll their fairways and cut the fairways towards the green, which is why we see so much roll on their drives. 

 

The rough doesn't have to be US Open penal, but should be penal enough to give the player pause before he wails away with driver. 

[milesgiles]

9 minutes ago, mokedaddy said:

The tee solution does not appear to even be on the USGA’s radar.

 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/02/02/usga-distance-report-local-rule-equipment-testing/

 

 

 

Local rules for individual competitions does open the door a little..

 

As does driver volume. I'm not impressed that it's taken 20 years to start an official discussion, is it going to be another 20 years to agree and implement?

[ThinkingPlus]

11 minutes ago, mokedaddy said:

The tee solution does not appear to even be on the USGA’s radar.

 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/02/02/usga-distance-report-local-rule-equipment-testing/

 

 

There is a reason for that.  While the RBs aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, they would never pursue such a ludicrous idea as limiting tee height so drastically.

[ThinkingPlus]

2 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Local rules for individual competitions does open the door a little..

 

As does driver volume. I'm not impressed that it's taken 20 years to start an official discussion, is it going to be another 20 years to agree and implement?

We can only hope they continue to drag their feet...

[milesgiles]

2 minutes ago, Sean2 said:

I agree with 3. 6, and 7, but don't agree that a roll-back is needed to address them. 

 

Penal rough, narrower fairways, etc., would address such problems as bomb and gouge and the need for longer tees. This would also require the golfer to play more finesse shots, as well as think his way around the course, as opposed to just hitting it as far as he can and wedging it onto the green. I have read that many venues roll their fairways and cut the fairways towards the green, which is why we see so much roll on their drives. 

 

The rough doesn't have to be US Open penal, but should be penal enough to give the player pause before he wails away with driver. 

 

Fair enough.

 

Growing the rough does slow the game down though, so I think that needs caution. Fully agree on fairways that roll far too much, the autumn Masters and last week were a good watch for having longer approaches, a 560y par 5 is not normally a 2 and a half shotter for the pro's

[milesgiles]

6 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

There is a reason for that.  While the RBs aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, they would never pursue such a ludicrous idea as limiting tee height so drastically.

 

Since that's how the game was played for 250 of its 270 years, I fail to see the ludicrousness

Edited February 2, 2021 by milesgiles

[mokedaddy]

10 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Local rules for individual competitions does open the door a little..

 

As does driver volume. I'm not impressed that it's taken 20 years to start an official discussion, is it going to be another 20 years to agree and implement?

Most likely they will take a year or two to study, a couple years to implement the changes and probably 10 years to make it mandatory if they go full scale rollback.  If it’s just for the tours I could see it changing in he next 5.

[Frankensteins Monster]

57 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Th logical conclusion to your point of view is that a smaller tee will mean they still use 460s then. That's your contention, is it?

PLENTY of long hitters use a short tee height. One of the longest on tour almost always uses a shorter tee height, Dustin Johnson. Tiger Woods uses a shorter tee height with the driver. Same goes with Finau. Lower the tee height requirement and it will do absolutely nothing in the long run except make less amateur golfers play less golf.

[Frankensteins Monster]

31 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Local rules for individual competitions does open the door a little..

 

As does driver volume. I'm not impressed that it's taken 20 years to start an official discussion, is it going to be another 20 years to agree and implement?

Local rules are not something that can be made just because. There's a specific set of circumstances where a "local rule" can be made. Limiting tee height more than the USGA tee hight limit is not something that can be made with a "local rule." If someone creates a "local rule" in an area not stipulated by the USGA, they are, in fact, not playing by USGA rules.

[johnseg]

I continue to see the distance issue as a series of solutions in search of a problem.  There is still plenty of skill in the game regardless of how far the ball goes.

 

One thing that nobody ever mentions is mindset. The mindset now seems to be get it as close as you can to the green. Rarely do you ever here of players hitting to a number anymore. No layups to 135 because it is a perfect wedge. Short game and putting are so under valued by people watching. Go back to bumpy shaggy greens and really start to here guys on tour complain.

[milesgiles]

1 minute ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

Local rules are not something that can be made just because. There's a specific set of circumstances where a "local rule" can be made. Limiting tee height more than the USGA tee hight limit is not something that can be made with a "local rule." If someone creates a "local rule" in an area not stipulated by the USGA, they are, in fact, not playing by USGA rules.

 

Did you read the linked article?

[milesgiles]

7 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

PLENTY of long hitters use a short tee height. One of the longest on tour almost always uses a shorter tee height, Dustin Johnson. Tiger Woods uses a shorter tee height with the driver. Same goes with Finau. Lower the tee height requirement and it will do absolutely nothing in the long run except make less amateur golfers play less golf.

 

None of them use anything like a 7/8” tee, ever.

[Frankensteins Monster]

1 minute ago, milesgiles said:

 

Did you read the linked article?

I did and nothing in it points to the opposite of what I typed. The current rules of golf, set forth by the USGA, do NOT allow limiting tee height beyond the USGA's tee height limit by creating an arbitrary "local rule." If a course, or club, creates one, they are, in fact, in violation of the rules of golf set forth by the USGA.