OEM's are a big joke. How long before we have a 39 PW?

[phizzy30]

I don't really see a problem here.  Bottom line is that OEMs need to generate profit.  If that means touting more distance for their irons regardless of jacking up lofts or claiming that the face is hotter ie. having more of a spring effect, then so be it. 

[bnperrone]

53 minutes ago, kiwihacker said:

See how the 'traditional' lofts are 3° increments in the long irons and 4° throughout the remainder of the set whilst the modern jacked lofts are 3° then 3.5° then 4.5° then 5° then 5.5° then 6°.

100% agree. I'm not offended by these lofts. I'm not mad or jealous of other golfers who hit a different club than I do. I am, however, disappointed that OEM's are so regularly bunching up the top and spreading out the bottom so that they can claim distance superiority. Maybe this next part is total BS, but years ago I remember being told that industry claims were based off of the 6-iron and the strengthening of the 6 was specific to those marketing metrics. The rest of the set did what it had to do to make up for it.

 

At the end of the day I don't want to see buying choices limited to 6* gaps in the scoring irons. Right now there are still plenty of choices for players like me. MP20, Wilson Staff Model Blades and CBs and T100 and MB/CB lines immediately come to mind, and slight tweaking of many other sets can get there. I just don't want to wake up one day and find that consistent distance gapping can only be achieved with one-off boutique builds. When I look at PXG's 2021 0211 line, for example, I'd (approximately) hit their 9-iron close to 160, their PW 145, their GW 125, etc. But I'd probably max out the 4-iron at ~215-220. It just doesn't jive. There's just too many scenarios where I'd have to swing a LW full or otherwise do way too much to handle common yardages. 

 

To each their own, but I hope the pendulum has swung as far as it's going to go in this direction. 

[kiwihacker]

1 hour ago, caniac6 said:

I'm holding out for a 20 degree wedge so I can use driver wedge on every hole.

Been saying this for years. Just bring out a 21° PW already plus 7 Gap wedges to my sand wedge. Then on most approach shots I can brag that "It's just a wedge for me". 😏

[kiwihacker]

Ok so one more question for those in the "It doesn't matter" camp. Back when I took up the game we were all being advised to swap out our "hard to hit" 3 & 4 irons for hybrids. 

 

So for a newbie golfer buying his first shiny new set of irons you think the guy in the golf shop will recommend he only buy the 7-GW or will he just go ahead and sell him 5-PW/GW i.e. selling him 5 & 6 irons that are the same "hard to hit" lofts as those evil 3 & 4 irons we were advised to toss out?

 

Apparently the number on the bottom does matter. If they're numbered 3 & 4 they're hard to hit but easy to hit if they're numbered 5 & 6. 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, MattM97 said:

Oh this topic again, and this is for you: 

 

 

But you do realize these clubs with "jacked lofts" have the COG super low in the head so they launch the ball much higher. If they had these jacked lofts and didn't have the COG super low the ball would go for miles but not able to hold any green.

 

In the end who really cares if one person uses a 48° PW or a 39° PW, if they both enjoy the game that's all that's needed. Gatekeeping the game is what's keeping people out. 

That last part makes no sense.  
 

if we change the game to attract new people. Aren’t we just changing the game to sell it for profit ?  And alienating the ones guarding it to begin with.  Why does the wants of newbies get preferred ranking over the Guardians ,  as you put it.  
 

I’ve often wondered this in life.  It’s a universal idea that we must make way for newbies.   Why can’t newbies conform ?   

[setter02]

1 hour ago, Superbrit said:

You do realise you dont have to buy clubs with strong lofts, you can buy irons with more traditional lofts if they offend that much

 

It's more that the informed can b**** about it so that the uninformed have a place to learn the differences (here) or maybe the OEM's listen to what their customers want, which is a super novel idea...

[larryd3]

just wondering how many of these threads we need to have on the same topic.  Kind of like the Blade iron topics.  

[pinestreetgolf]

17 minutes ago, kiwihacker said:

Ok so one more question for those in the "It doesn't matter" camp. Back when I took up the game we were all being advised to swap out our "hard to hit" 3 & 4 irons for hybrids. 

 

So for a newbie golfer buying his first shiny new set of irons you think the guy in the golf shop will recommend he only buy the 7-GW or will he just go ahead and sell him 5-PW/GW i.e. selling him 5 & 6 irons that are the same "hard to hit" lofts as those evil 3 & 4 irons we were advised to toss out?

 

Apparently the number on the bottom does matter. If they're numbered 3 & 4 they're hard to hit but easy to hit if they're numbered 5 & 6. 

 

They're easier to hit because the shaft is way shorter.  The Mavrik 5 iron has a 38" shaft at 21*.  The Mizuno MP-20 3 iron has a 39.5" shaft as 21*.  Shorter shafts are easier to hit than longer shafts.

 

"Traditional lofts" are like horses.  Yep, they are traditional.  But I'd rather have a car.

[bladehunter]

10 minutes ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

They're easier to hit because the shaft is way shorter.  The Mavrik 5 iron has a 38" shaft at 21*.  The Mizuno MP-20 3 iron has a 39.5" shaft as 21*.  Shorter shafts are easier to hit than longer shafts.

 

"Traditional lofts" are like horses.  Yep, they are traditional.  But I'd rather have a car.

We’re talking  an inch.  Why not choke down. ?    
 

 

this whole shaft length excuse doesn’t fly.  Many of us play longer shafts anyway.  My 5 will be as long as the j40 3 iron if I order it an inch over as a set. But so will my pw.... It’s crazy talk.  
 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by bladehunter

[kiwihacker]

14 minutes ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

They're easier to hit because the shaft is way shorter.  The Mavrik 5 iron has a 38" shaft at 21*.  The Mizuno MP-20 3 iron has a 39.5" shaft as 21*.  Shorter shafts are easier to hit than longer shafts.

 

"Traditional lofts" are like horses.  Yep, they are traditional.  But I'd rather have a car.

Well the models I was comparing were 38.75 in the 'traditional' lofts and 38.5 in the modern lofts. So you're telling me .25 of an inch turns a 21° from a hard to hit 3 iron into an easy to hit 5 iron. Lol

[nsxguy]

14 hours ago, sonnygolf said:

It wont be long before the OEM's break into 30's mark with regards to PW lofts. This is going to be very funny see how the OEMs and players end up with an identity crisis. The word gap wedge will mean more than one club  with players carrying 6 wedges. They might as well do away with the faux numbering 4  - 9 on irons and we call all irons by their lofts. But that wont suit their agenda because nothing is more cool for OEMS than hear some newbie say "I hit my 7 iron 210, these clubs are super amazing".

 

Listening to OEM marketing guys talk about their new super duper jacked up clubs is worse than a greasy car salesmen trying to sell you a faulty car. People need to call them out rather than pander to them.

 

 

 

No need to worry. You're ready for blades. You said so.

 

Blades aren't getting nearly as strong nearly as fast.

 

It'll be a loooooong time before a blade PW gets to 39.

[kiwihacker]

2 hours ago, Superbrit said:

You do realise you dont have to buy clubs with strong lofts, you can buy irons with more traditional lofts if they offend that much

Yes of course but stop telling me they're "exactly the same apart from the number stamped on the bottom of the club" which is patently untrue. Also to get traditional lofts I generally have to buy 'players' clubs such as blades or the T100 players cavity backs. If I want to play a bigger game improvement type iron my choices are much reduced. 

[lefthack]

I'm going to shave the numbers off all my clubs just to be cool. 7 iron? Maybe. 🤣

[setter02]

55 minutes ago, kiwihacker said:

Well the models I was comparing were 38.75 in the 'traditional' lofts and 38.5 in the modern lofts. So you're telling me .25 of an inch turns a 21° from a hard to hit 3 iron into an easy to hit 5 iron. Lol

 

Then why aren't SL irons at the top end getting pegged as easier to hit?  Shorter shafts means easier to hit right?

[kiwihacker]

8 minutes ago, gwelfgulfer said:

 

Then why aren't SL irons at the top end getting pegged as easier to hit?  Shorter shafts means easier to hit right?

0.25 shorter? Aren't single length irons typically 7 iron length which is about 2 inches shorter than a typical 3 iron. 

[dekez]

2 hours ago, bnperrone said:

100% agree. I'm not offended by these lofts. I'm not mad or jealous of other golfers who hit a different club than I do. I am, however, disappointed that OEM's are so regularly bunching up the top and spreading out the bottom so that they can claim distance superiority. Maybe this next part is total BS, but years ago I remember being told that industry claims were based off of the 6-iron and the strengthening of the 6 was specific to those marketing metrics. The rest of the set did what it had to do to make up for it.

 

At the end of the day I don't want to see buying choices limited to 6* gaps in the scoring irons. Right now there are still plenty of choices for players like me. MP20, Wilson Staff Model Blades and CBs and T100 and MB/CB lines immediately come to mind, and slight tweaking of many other sets can get there. I just don't want to wake up one day and find that consistent distance gapping can only be achieved with one-off boutique builds. When I look at PXG's 2021 0211 line, for example, I'd (approximately) hit their 9-iron close to 160, their PW 145, their GW 125, etc. But I'd probably max out the 4-iron at ~215-220. It just doesn't jive. There's just too many scenarios where I'd have to swing a LW full or otherwise do way too much to handle common yardages. 

 

To each their own, but I hope the pendulum has swung as far as it's going to go in this direction. 

0211 nowhere near the lead in jacking lofts.  Apex 21 and Apex 21 DBM PW is 43*.  I fell out of my chair when I saw that.  

[bnperrone]

Just now, dekez said:

0211 nowhere near the lead in jacking lofts.  Apex 21 and Apex 21 DBM PW is 43*.  I fell out of my chair when I saw that.  

Good point. The PXG chart was handy and it's an example outside of the SGI category that most of the other irons discussed fall into. The Gen 3 XP is their leader in strong lofts, but then it seems that's their SGI choice. Heck, Titleist T200 and T300 are at 43* as well, and the T400 is at 38*! And the T200 is absolutely marketed as a player iron, like the Apex you mention. Maybe it's all more prevalent than I realized.

[Hack Daddy]

5 hours ago, Davidv said:

Big deal the game for most people is about having a good time and enjoying the round. So sorry a "newbie" might upset you because he hit his jacked up 7 iron 200 yards and hurt your ego.

 

A newb or non-avid golfer isn't going to hit a jacked 7 200, unless it's on accident, 3 feet off the ground. Someone who CAN hit a 7 2 bills isn't playing jacked loft clubs due to the other limiting factors (sole width, bounce, top line, etc.).

Edited February 2, 2021 by Hack Daddy

[setter02]

51 minutes ago, kiwihacker said:

0.25 shorter? Aren't single length irons typically 7 iron length which is about 2 inches shorter than a typical 3 iron. 

 

I thought the gist of the thread was that there is no "typical" given the jacking of lofts.  So what is the "typical" length in iron as OEM's vary on that as well.

[JDMRN81]

[setter02]

Just now, Hack Daddy said:

 

A newb or non-avid golfer isn't going to hit a jacked 7 200, unless it's on accident, 3 feet off the ground. Someone who CAN hit a 7 2 bills isn't playing jacked loft clubs do to the other limiting factors (sole width, bounce, top line, etc.).

 

Sorry, but then you really haven't been out much or play with very physically weak players.  That is a pretty bad blanket statement.

[Davidv]

4 minutes ago, Hack Daddy said:

 

A newb or non-avid golfer isn't going to hit a jacked 7 200, unless it's on accident, 3 feet off the ground. Someone who CAN hit a 7 2 bills isn't playing jacked loft clubs due to the other limiting factors (sole width, bounce, top line, etc.).

Is that right wow thanks for all that great detail. Obviously you missed the point of the response.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

Play blades. 2 degrees stronger over ~20 years and super easy to bend weak.

Edited February 2, 2021 by TLUBulldogGolf

[chippa13]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

That last part makes no sense.  
 

if we change the game to attract new people. Aren’t we just changing the game to sell it for profit ?  And alienating the ones guarding it to begin with.  Why does the wants of newbies get preferred ranking over the Guardians ,  as you put it.  
 

I’ve often wondered this in life.  It’s a universal idea that we must make way for newbies.   Why can’t newbies conform ?   

Guardians? That's funny.

 

Here's the thing, a newbie can get what they want and a "Guardian" (nope, can't type that without laughing) are still able to get what they want.

[Krt22]

 

 

2 hours ago, kiwihacker said:

Yes of course but stop telling me they're "exactly the same apart from the number stamped on the bottom of the club" which is patently untrue. Also to get traditional lofts I generally have to buy 'players' clubs such as blades or the T100 players cavity backs. If I want to play a bigger game improvement type iron my choices are much reduced. 

Why in the world would you want to play standard lofts in big game improvement irons? With their larger sole and low CG, they are designed to launch the ball higher. Not to mention most folks who need these clubs typically are adding loft at impact, so having less static loft mitigates this to get launch angles more optimal. You really don't want a 7i launching like a PW (nor a 7i that spins 4500prm). If you are properly leaning the shaft and making solid ball first contact, there are plenty of sets that have traditional lofts with plenty of forgiveness. For every ego maniac trying to nuke his 7i 200 yards, there is the guy who can't let get static lofts out of his head. Unless you have PGA tour speed and impact conditions (good shaft lean without being overly steep), playing traditional lofts might not be ideal.

 

The market really has something for everyone, while a mitchell further expands that. Why folks get so obsessed over loft makes no sense

[dekez]

I love the General Turgidson GIF above.  For sure "to each his own" applies.  What I don't like is that it is getting harder and harder to find "normalish" lofts with consistent gapping even in the Game Improvement category.  That's why the OEMs now have some irons vary by 1/2" and then bump it up to 5/8" at the bottom of the bag.  No way those longer clubs will be as accurate as if they were shorter.

[ChipNRun]

Might get new irons this spring. Mainly a move from steel to graphite (lighter, less vibration).

 

Possible considerations:

• Mavrik MAX (30* 7i |43* PW)
• Ping G425 (30* 7i | 44.5* PW)

At least the PWs are still in the 40s. (G425 has 47* PW in Retro Loft)

 

[xkilgorextroutx]

Lofts are too strong!

 

Marketing claims are lies!!

 

The sky is blue!!!

[MattM97]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

That last part makes no sense.  
 

if we change the game to attract new people. Aren’t we just changing the game to sell it for profit ?  And alienating the ones guarding it to begin with.  Why does the wants of newbies get preferred ranking over the Guardians ,  as you put it.  
 

I’ve often wondered this in life.  It’s a universal idea that we must make way for newbies.   Why can’t newbies conform ?   

 

Cause there are several different kinds of golfers. These clubs are meant for that really new person to the game who wants to play but may not want lessons right now. The older guy who retired and thinking of picking it up with the game. The grandparent who maybe wants to play with their kids or grandkids. The person with the physical disability or senior that doesn't have the strength or physical ability to get a ball up in the air with tradition loft.

 

I fully believe these people and many others deserve to play and enjoy the game like we do. So why should we hand them something that makes the game harder just cause everyone else is using it? They're not going pro, they're probably playing a local 9 hole at most but if they're enjoying it that's all that should matter. 

 

That's what these clubs are for, it's to get more people into the game, this is a game for everyone to play. Say the newbie starts off with a jacked set of irons gets better, gets a traditional set of irons and gives these to a friend, sibling or cousin that's another person in this game and the cycle continues. 

[DLiver]

I still don't understand why people get twisted about this.