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What’s Going On At PXG?


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32 minutes ago, gwelfgulfer said:

 

Bad analogy.  They could have over estimated the market and over valued that car.  Dropped price when more interest showed that $35k was a deal breaker, but $33k wasn't.  No different than someone selling a club here, but dropping the price a week later to move it.  I've done this over a period of time on how much I'm willing to eat in difference from original asking price.  Are they/me actually losing credibility?  No.

 

At this point, retailers that were carrying PXG are shaking their heads as they've been basically tossed aside with no regard for this new model.  Apparently the price has changed on some irons 5 times in the past 2 months, usually with no warning to the retailers.  This is just pathetic and bad faith business.  It's possibly going to leave some retailers with inventory that they can't move anymore because customers can get the product cheaper straight from the OEM.  

Since when are there retailers (other than PXG obviously) carrying PXG products? 

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Pretty clear what is going on:   When they first released they had a nice looking forged blade at an exclusive price point and they marketed to low handicap golfers who wanted "the best". Th

LOL.  Are you talking about the 0211's?  I've played several of their products and with the exception of their Gen 1 driver, every product has been as good as any other major OEM offering.  I don't pl

You and you friend both went from strong lofted clubs to more traditional lofts.  Even the original 0211's had a 45* PW, while the Apex (non-Pro) PW is 43*.  So if you had yours bent to the same loft

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4 minutes ago, Lefty87 said:

Since when are there retailers (other than PXG obviously) carrying PXG products? 

 

We have a fitter up here that has some woods in stock and is wondering how they can sell stuff that is less than their cost from PXG.  Even after exchange, the price difference from their price vs. PXG is like over $200.

 

PXG has also been massively gouging on the shipping costs of equipment up here to help cover other expenses...

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4 minutes ago, FatThinShank said:

They started as a company that said they have the most resources and will make the best but very expensive clubs. If you release new clubs every year or two it’s hard to advertise that because you’re trying to convince someone to upgrade something that they were told is the best it could possibly be. So the price starts to come down to get more customers and now when people get a “discounted” PXG club it feels like you are getting a luxury club for cheap. They are trying to grow bigger just like every company out there and you can’t do that unless you expand your customer base. 

I get what you’re saying but, let’s be serious, no one is comprehending that as, “PXG told me these are the best clubs in the world, so I’m never buying another golf club again.” Every OEM does this...maybe they aren’t as blunt as PXG, but every OEM out there tells you their new line is the best they’ve ever made. Say PXG’s Gen 1 irons really were far and away the best irons ever known to man. Do you honestly think they’d never release a new set of irons? 
 

Furthermore, if TaylorMade released the SIM 2 and said, “It may not be better than the original SIM, but it has a cool new color palette...” how do you think their sales would look? 
 

Some people like PXG’s swagger, their arrogance...other people despise it. That’s the power of branding. It doesn’t appeal to everyone and, it’s not supposed to, but that doesn’t mean it can’t appeal to a larger audience. 

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I am not sure, but do have one point 

 

People paying a lot of money for their top of the line products are probably unlikely to keep upgrading and paying that much again, so is a difficult one to charge so much and then bring out something so much better 18 months or so later. That is a tough sell and maybe the original buyers no longer believe in the brand - so they now need to appeal to the wider market - just my opinion. 

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1 minute ago, Lefty87 said:

I get what you’re saying but, let’s be serious, no one is comprehending that as, “PXG told me these are the best clubs in the world, so I’m never buying another golf club again.” Every OEM does this...maybe they aren’t as blunt as PXG, but every OEM out there tells you their new line is the best they’ve ever made. Say PXG’s Gen 1 irons really were far and away the best irons ever known to man. Do you honestly think they’d never release a new set of irons? 
 

Furthermore, if TaylorMade released the SIM 2 and said, “It may not be better than the original SIM, but it has a cool new color palette...” how do you think their sales would look? 
 

Some people like PXG’s swagger, their arrogance...other people despise it. That’s the power of branding. It doesn’t appeal to everyone and, it’s not supposed to, but that doesn’t mean it can’t appeal to a larger audience. 

 

I had the Gen 1 Irons, I bought into the Hype And was soon disappointed once I got these on the course. I was fitted at Liberty National for these, So I made it an experience. And I couldn't hit them for the life of me. Only other time that happened was when I purchased TM r7 they were out of the bag fast. I did and still to this day think the Hybrid was a fantastic club.

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9 minutes ago, gwelfgulfer said:

 

We have a fitter up here that has some woods in stock and is wondering how they can sell stuff that is less than their cost from PXG.  Even after exchange, the price difference from their price vs. PXG is like over $200.

 

PXG has also been massively gouging on the shipping costs of equipment up here to help cover other expenses...

Interesting. Not that it doesn’t exist, but I have never been to a fitter that carries PXG stock in house. That’s unfortunate but, PXG isn’t a a big box retailer or wholesaler, and to treat them as such is a mistake. Hopefully this fitter learned not to buy product from them in bulk. PXG has never operated in that capacity. 

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27 minutes ago, JoeFrigo said:

im not sure whats happening at PXG but whatever it is, im glad it happened. I grabbed a Proto 0811 x for $350 and could not be happier. The reduced price point made me take a chance on a brand new released driver that at the time was cheaper than a SIM, Mavrik, Speezone etc..... it also happened to blow my SIM Max driver away and it wasn't close.

 

Because of the Proto working so well and the reduced prices I immediately bought the new 0211 3w. I think they're quality products. They aren't essentially better than any other OEM, but definitely equal to. Its turned me in to a new customer who now frequently visits the site wanting to impulse buy

I'll echo this.  After a frustrating fitting experience at ClubChampion (Driver alone was over $1,000 after tax - SIM + VA shaft +fitting fee + tax), I took a chance on PXG, found a great driver (for me) that I could afford, and thus took a chance on the original 0211 Irons at $85/club.  There wasn't another driver (new) or iron set (new) that could get close to the price point I was able to hit on these.  Enjoying them so far.  I got a new, fit for me, driver and irons for about the same cost as the fit for me driver from TM.

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7 minutes ago, Lefty87 said:

I get what you’re saying but, let’s be serious, no one is comprehending that as, “PXG told me these are the best clubs in the world, so I’m never buying another golf club again.” Every OEM does this...maybe they aren’t as blunt as PXG, but every OEM out there tells you their new line is the best they’ve ever made. Say PXG’s Gen 1 irons really were far and away the best irons ever known to man. Do you honestly think they’d never release a new set of irons? 
 

Furthermore, if TaylorMade released the SIM 2 and said, “It may not be better than the original SIM, but it has a cool new color palette...” how do you think their sales would look? 
 

Some people like PXG’s swagger, their arrogance...other people despise it. That’s the power of branding. It doesn’t appeal to everyone and, it’s not supposed to, but that doesn’t mean it can’t appeal to a larger audience. 

All I’m saying is that at that price point they weren’t going to grow their customer base, not really trying to argue. I just think they were always going to have to lower the cost of their clubs to appeal to more people and then people realize they aren’t any different than any other brand. 
 

BTW I do honestly believe there are plenty of people who bought them at the beginning and believed they were better than every other company purely because they cost more and were marketed that way. 

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6 minutes ago, Zigzog said:

I am not sure, but do have one point 

 

People paying a lot of money for their top of the line products are probably unlikely to keep upgrading and paying that much again, so is a difficult one to charge so much and then bring out something so much better 18 months or so later. That is a tough sell and maybe the original buyers no longer believe in the brand - so they now need to appeal to the wider market - just my opinion. 

That’s a very good point, but there’s an explanation for this. With every product, there is a system of consumers that falls into categories of product adoption...

 

innovators, early adopters, early majority, late majority, and laggards. 
 

Essentially, there will always be a percentage who want to be the first to own...they want the shiny new object and they have the resources to obtain it. 
 

To your point, if the innovators and early adopters dwindle, the product is in jeopardy. However, PXG’s brand was essentially built to appeal to this segment, and It seems they are confident that they will maintain a sufficient share of this category. 
 

 

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8 minutes ago, Lefty87 said:

Interesting. Not that it doesn’t exist, but I have never been to a fitter that carries PXG stock in house. That’s unfortunate but, PXG isn’t a a big box retailer or wholesaler, and to treat them as such is a mistake. Hopefully this fitter learned not to buy product from them in bulk. PXG has never operated in that capacity. 

 

It's isn't much.  But the constant price changes have left them wondering why even bother.  Was more just for a quicker turn around for the customers as they do good volume of stuff.  So rather than have people wait 3-5 weeks they could walk out that day (or next) with a fit club.

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Ping Rapture '14 13*
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Titleist 690.CB 4/6/8/PW
Vokey TVD 54*
Odyssey Tank V-Line

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4 minutes ago, FatThinShank said:

All I’m saying is that at that price point they weren’t going to grow their customer base, not really trying to argue. I just think they were always going to have to lower the cost of their clubs to appeal to more people and then people realize they aren’t any different than any other brand. 
 

BTW I do honestly believe there are plenty of people who bought them at the beginning and believed they were better than every other company purely because they cost more and were marketed that way. 

That’s a fair assessment. I appreciate the dialogue. 

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3 minutes ago, Lefty87 said:

If the innovators and early adopters dwindle, the product is in jeopardy. However, PXG’s brand was essentially built to appeal to this segment, and It seems they are confident that they will maintain a sufficient share of this category. 

 

But they aren't the new shiny company anymore, and those innovators and early adopters have experience with that product.  It's easy to sell some on the great unknown of being a new company, more so with their outlandish initial claims, but to get those guys again at full pop, I'd bet less than 50% would and have likely moved onto something else.

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Ping Rapture '14 13*
Ping Rapture DI 18*
Titleist 690.CB 4/6/8/PW
Vokey TVD 54*
Odyssey Tank V-Line

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Just now, gwelfgulfer said:

 

But they aren't the new shiny company anymore, and those innovators and early adopters have experience with that product.  It's easy to sell some on the great unknown of being a new company, more so with their outlandish initial claims, but to get those guys again at full pop, I'd bet less than 50% would and have likely moved onto something else.

I was referring to the new product releases more so than the company as a whole, but I agree with what you’re saying. 

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4 minutes ago, gwelfgulfer said:

 

But they aren't the new shiny company anymore, and those innovators and early adopters have experience with that product.  It's easy to sell some on the great unknown of being a new company, more so with their outlandish initial claims, but to get those guys again at full pop, I'd bet less than 50% would and have likely moved onto something else.

I don't even think about leaving PXG. From Gen2 to Gen3 to Proto, there's nothing on the market that feels or performs anywhere close to PXG for me. 

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To offer some context to my experience with PXG, I always felt their equipment performed very well compared to other OEMs but, for me, the difference was that I found a product that worked as well or better for me than what I was currently using, and (again this is my opinion) it looked far better than anything I had ever seen or played. 
 

Personally, I never bought PXG equipment because it “has a sweet spot the size of Texas” or any of the other marketing claims...I use PXG because the equipment performs admirably for my game, and there’s nothing close to the aesthetics in my eyes. I’m also a sucker for branding and I love a good story around a company.
 

I resonate with PXG as a brand, and I’m very happy with the performance and aesthetics of their equipment. What these things mean to different people is completely subjective, but I never bought into PXG because I thought they made equipment that was exponentially better than anything else available. Just my .02 cents. 

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1 minute ago, snagy2000 said:

I don't even think about leaving PXG. From Gen2 to Gen3 to Proto, there's nothing on the market that feels or performs anywhere close to PXG for me. 

 

100% there will be people who will stay with the brand.  No different than any of the other fanboys, even better that the equipment works for you.  But I would say you are likely in the minority, even more so now with those who were gen1 buyers who did so as a status symbol due to price and hype.  

 

We all know that there is money out there and that people spend it, but I don't think it could have been a decent plan to think that all those who eventually bought in would continue to gobble up each release to sustain the business. 

What's In The Ping Moonlite:
Ping Rapture '14 13*
Ping Rapture DI 18*
Titleist 690.CB 4/6/8/PW
Vokey TVD 54*
Odyssey Tank V-Line

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16 minutes ago, Lefty87 said:

That’s a very good point, but there’s an explanation for this. With every product, there is a system of consumers that falls into categories of product adoption...

 

innovators, early adopters, early majority, late majority, and laggards. 
 

Essentially, there will always be a percentage who want to be the first to own...they want the shiny new object and they have the resources to obtain it. 
 

To your point, if the innovators and early adopters dwindle, the product is in jeopardy. However, PXG’s brand was essentially built to appeal to this segment, and It seems they are confident that they will maintain a sufficient share of this category. 
 

 

 

Yeah, I think in my view that they will not sell anywhere near as much gen 4 or gen 3 than they did the earlier gens - again just my opinion but we all have one. 

 

I tried their irons, they were ok - but for me they didn't give me anything extra. Having said that I don't really think I am what they are aiming at with their products; so maybe hard to relate. 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

Yes, I'm talking about every single release since that original forged blade. I'm not saying they don't work for some people but the club heads changed dramatically in size, shape, and construction since that very first release. 

 

Comparing every single PXG release since that original blade:

Bigger club head - check

Longer blade length - check

Thicker top line - check

More offset - check

Jacked lofts - check

Hollow body cast - check

Cheaper materials - check

Mass produced - check

 

FYI - there isn't much difference between any OEM's cast game improvement offering and a Top Flight box set and while you may take offense to that comment the point is the PXG clubs are not exclusive, they don't perform better, and they certainly aren't worth premium pricing. 

 

I think you are mistaken on their releases.  Their original line was the 0311 line with several offerings, none of which were an actual solid blade.  The 0311T's I played were their closest offering to a blade, but still had a small, polymer filled cavity.  The subsequent releases are almost identical across all 3 generations.  In fact, between the Gen 1 and 2 T models, the 2's had a hair LESS offset.  Blade lengths, top lines, lofts are all identical. The Gen 3 are nearly identical to the Gen 2.  While they've changed metals on at least the T models, they've all been forgings using metals used by all the other major oem's (1020/S25C, 8620, etc.).   

 

The difference in their irons lies in the 0211's as they were a hollow, cast iron.  But they were meant to be that.  A GI offering that was more affordable than their forged X/XF/SGI lines.  And while some didn't like them, many loved them.  So much that they eventually sold out of the first line and are onto another generation.  Though this newer generation is considerably more SGI than the first 0211's.  But they still have all of the original offerings and even a true blade offering with the ST line.

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13 minutes ago, snagy2000 said:

I don't even think about leaving PXG. From Gen2 to Gen3 to Proto, there's nothing on the market that feels or performs anywhere close to PXG for me. 

 

I enjoyed my 0311T's, but feel like Mizunos/Srixons/Bridgestone irons feel better to me.  PXG would have to produce a more traditional looking blade or cavity back for me to come back to them for irons.  I'd absolutely come back to them for woods though, especially at their prices.  I went from the 0811X to a Cobra F9 because I could get it as one model old at the time for $250 with a shaft I knew I liked and it performed so well in the 2019 MGS Most Wanted driver tests.

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4 minutes ago, cwilk said:

 

I think you are mistaken on their releases.  Their original line was the 0311 line with several offerings, none of which were an actual solid blade.  The 0311T's I played were their closest offering to a blade, but still had a small, polymer filled cavity.  The subsequent releases are almost identical across all 3 generations.  In fact, between the Gen 1 and 2 T models, the 2's had a hair LESS offset.  Blade lengths, top lines, lofts are all identical. The Gen 3 are nearly identical to the Gen 2.  While they've changed metals on at least the T models, they've all been forgings using metals used by all the other major oem's (1020/S25C, 8620, etc.).   

 

The difference in their irons lies in the 0211's as they were a hollow, cast iron.  But they were meant to be that.  A GI offering that was more affordable than their forged X/XF/SGI lines.  And while some didn't like them, many loved them.  So much that they eventually sold out of the first line and are onto another generation.  Though this newer generation is considerably more SGI than the first 0211's.  But they still have all of the original offerings and even a true blade offering with the ST line.

My thoughts on this are similar to yours...I don’t recall an “original PXG blade”...

 

The sizing has always been very consistent. 

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It's crazy how they managed it but it's like they are still perceived as a status symbol while becoming more affordable. They've been seen as a luxury brand for so long that people are downright giddy to get their clubs at "normal" OEM pricing. And for the majority of the golfing public that isn't all that into golf gear, the brand still conjures up a hint of exclusivity. My group of friends are all in their 30s and are avid golfers but would never take their equipment too seriously. So when I showed up with some PXG clubs, they thought I had to take a second mortgage out to afford them. And to be honest that's part of the reason why I went with PXG. I always liked the fact that they looked different from anything else out there. I can always get clean lines and minimal design with Wilson, Titleist, Taylormade, etc. But the black screws on milled steel just speaks to me. So I for one am glad they have made their products accessible to more avid golfers but I can understand how early adopters are turned off by their pivot. 

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Titleist TSI2 16.5 Ventus Red 7s

PXG 0317x Gen2 19 VA Raijin 84s

PXG 0311 Gen3 4-5 P, 6-9 T, PW ST Oban CT-115s 

PXG 0311 Sugar Daddy 50 Oban CT-115s

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If prices keep dropping, I may have to come back and try out the new GEN4 stuff!

 

Nobody sells golf clubs the way we do. PERIOD!

CALLAWAY Customs (Black w/Silver) "The FREAK" Mavrik Sub Zero Driver, 9*, Accra TZ6/M5 72g X
CALLAWAY Mavrik Sub Zero 3 Wood, 15*, Accra TZ6/M5 80g X
CALLAWAY Super Hybrid, 18*, NS Pro Modus Hybrid GOST 102g X
TAYLORMADE SIM2 RESCUE, 22*, Diamana Thump 105g X
TAYLORMADE P790 - 4, 5, 6, PX IO 6.5
CALLAWAY APEX 21 TOUR CB, 4 - GW, PX IO/LS 6.5

CALLAWAY APEX 21 MB, 7 - GW, PX LS 6.5

CALLAWAY JAWS Forged Wedges, Chrome, 55/11C; 60/10C; PX LS 6.5

VOKEY SM8 "BIRDIE BOB" CUSTOM BRUSHED STEEL, 52/9F, DG TI x100; 58/8M, DG TI s400 ONYX 
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3 hours ago, cwilk said:

 

You and you friend both went from strong lofted clubs to more traditional lofts.  Even the original 0211's had a 45* PW, while the Apex (non-Pro) PW is 43*.  So if you had yours bent to the same loft the shaft could have played a role.  Same goes for the M2's depending on what 0311's your friend had (M2 has a 43* PW).  

 

I had 0311T's and loft per loft, they carried the same distance as any other club I've hit with my typical weight/flex shaft.  I'm not sure how you not hitting them as far would equate to them not being as good overall either.  

Not true, at least for me.  Lofts - 5i PXG 24 Apex 24 - 7i PXG 31 Apex 31.5 - PW PXG 45 Apex Pro 44.  My Apex lofts are adjusted.  Even if my Apex were at stock lofts, it's 23.5/30.5/44, so not nearly enough to create a 5-10 yard gap in yardage.  

 

And again, I acknowledge that maybe the Elevate Tour is a bad match for me.

 

And further, why did I buy clubs that flew less far?  Because the price was so good and I was stupid to think "maybe I just need to get used to them."

King Cobra F8 driver, 3w, 5w 
Callaway Rogue 21

Apex/Apex Pro 19 5-AW 
Callaway MD5 54/58
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I would guess that they realized that volume is a way to make profit too.

 

Using simple numbers (not real), let's say that they develop a driver and the cost to develop it was $1m.  Let's say the cost to manufacture the driver is $100.

 

They can sell the driver at $1,100 to make $1,000 profit per driver and then recoup their investment cost by selling 1,000 drivers.  Any driver they sell after 1,000 drivers is profit.

 

Or they can sell the driver for $600 and make $500 profit per driver and recoup their investment by selling 2,000 drivers.

 

Or they can sell the driver for $200 and make $100 profit per driver and recoup their investment by selling 10,000 drivers.

 

Maybe they realized that selling 10,000 drivers at $200 is easier than selling 1,000 at $1,100.

 

And to take that further, maybe they realized that they can sell 20,000 drivers at $200 rather than 2,000 drivers at $1,100.

 

Again, these are fake numbers just to illustrate a point.

 

I don't think they will ever go back to the initial model again.  They have sold a lot of volume this past year so they know that the volume game works better.  Bob Parsons isn't stupid.

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PXG carved a niche as a market disruptor by staging itself as a premium product.   I, along with several golf buddies, fell in line with the marketing and purchased Gen 1, Gen 2 and Gen 3 products.   Over the past year, they have watered down the image and opened a wider market.     While on the surface it may seem smart, it's really not that smart at all unless you're attempting to window dress sales levels to set the stage for selling the company.   A good portion of their loyal customers may (or actually will) move on to other offerings since the prestige and premium market niche have now been diluted.   

 

One can only assume the broadening of the product line to a wider audience is an effort to finally go up against the big boys:   TaylorMade, Callaway, Ping,  and to a certain extent Cobra (with its game improvement enthusiasts), Srixon (with its marketshare overseas) and even Titleist (with its Purists).     Adams Golf and a trail of other golf companies now in caskets (and buried) strayed from their successful niche products and thought a broader product line would challenge the big boys.   What happened?  You no longer see them around.   PXG appears to be headed the same way with its watered down image and loss of its original core customers.   And, PXG's product line and image are not likely to surpass the TM, Callaway or Ping wider audience and capture much marketshare.   Others have tried and failed.   Looks like PXG wants to be next.

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13 hours ago, chocolate_rehab said:

It doesn't seem like they have a defined strategy or business playbook they're following anymore. I thought the introduction of the more affordable 211 line made a lot of sense. You get people to try the brand who had previously been turned off by the price, or who may have wanted PXG but couldn't afford it. Meanwhile, the Gen products were higher end materials, feel, etc. Even blowing out old stock (Gen 1/Gen 2) at low prices made sense to me.

 

What doesn't make sense to me, and I've said this, is the willy nilly price changes on newer product and the lack of a clear delineation. One day 0211 irons are $129, the next $99, hours later, $89. 0211 Fairway woods debuting at $245, then a week later $229, then down to $199 within 15 days of launch. Gen 3 irons which are $299 one week, then $249, then $199 all within a month. How many price changes did the Proto drivers go through over the course of a few months?

 

It's like there's no plan. It also means the raising the prices back up thing they do is not going to be met with fervent customers. Why would I ever buy a product at launch? It would be smart to wait even a few weeks, as they've shown they will lower prices on brand new equipment. Likewise, if I paid $245 for a fairway and 2 weeks later it's $199, I'm going to be pissed. And no, I don't want PXG store credit.

 

Personally, it's a huge turn off. I think the dueling lines make sense. They just need to find prices that work and stick to them. The one thing about PXG is sometimes Bob Parsons' influence is so obvious in something they do in a negative way. I think these moves might boost sales in a pandemic, but long term I'm not so sure.

 

 

 

This is the social media playbook. All about engagement. The website has turned into a slot machine - you keep checking it to see if maybe you can get a better price. It's annoying to some but it's caused a skyrocketing level of interest in the brand. 

 

I do believe that the strategy wad ultra-luxury, then affordable luxury but the pandemic threw a wrench in the mix. The fitting experience was a huge justification of the price premium. My Club Champion set cost just as much as PXG when you include fitting & shaft upcharges. The pandemic nuked that process in many markets so they decided to really push web sales and it's working. 

 

Their brand credibility is in irons. The first drivers at high prices were a total flop so they're trying to regain their footing. Putting out exceptionally good hybrids at cheap prices is bringing in a lot of interest, add this thread demonstrates. The protos/specials are one-offs/see what sticks. Titleist does this with golf balls.  

 

I think they're still looking at two full product lines with the 0211 being cast irons & GI-focused woods, and 0311 "gen" series being forged irons and more adjustable woods. I know some people hate the screws but for swingweighting, unusual lengths, fine-tuning gapping and MOI weighting, they beat the hell out of tip weights and lead tape. 

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My take is that they're taking advantage of the uptick in golf enthusiasm to increase long term repeat customers at their traditional pricing.

 

The tell-tale sign of whether they're positioning to be mainstream or running a temporary market gain is what they do with distribution channels. They can't be mainstream and not offer more fitting opportunities and locations to see the clubs before you buy them. 

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20 hours ago, hanfrac said:

 

I did not have this experience.  I have CF19 Apex/Pros with C Taper Lites.  Went to a PXG fitting in Dec, bought the 0211's for $89 with Elevate Tours.  When I got them, they were shorter than the Apex.  They did not appear to offer any advantage over the Apex for me and my swing.  So I returned them and lost the shipping and restocking fee.

 

 

Didn't your fitting show that the 0211's were shorter and the Elevate Tours were not correct for your swing?  If that was the case why did you buy the 0211's?  If the fitting didn't show those things to you you must be saying they gave you a poor fitting.

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