What’s Going On At PXG?

[Tiptx1122]

I guess now those who thought and swore they had the best irons ever made because they paid a premium price have been mis lead. So glad I didn't buy into the hype as they are nice but no better than any other OEM company out there, but I'm sure there will be those who will always disagree. The name brand is slowly becoming devalued and will eventually be sold at other retailers like Dicks, Golf Galaxy  PGA Superstore etc. or some of tour local Pro Shops. 

 

If you want to pay a premium price for a boutique set of irons then take a look at EPON, they would get my money before I would ever spend my money on PXG. So now is the  time to put aside your ego and let the brand either come back down to reality and stop paying premium price just to own something different from everyone else that is no better or no worse than what is already out there. They have done a great job in marketing and research but they can't re-invent the wheel. 

[snagy2000]

Um ok...

 

 

[localpar3guy]

Can give some 2 cents here I guess. Have had the 2019 0211 irons for little under 6 months? Think they are great still. Had a great outdoor fitting from one of their mobile vans. Customer service was great for me. I give them a thumbs up for taking care of me and getting me golf clubs that performed better and cost less than other irons that performed well in other fittings.

 

As to their whole image or branding thing, if I'm being honest I am not the biggest fan. Their ads are little ridiculous. I saw their price drops and assumed they were moving product at a low price to make room for new releases, sounded like a good chance to try them out. Kinda annoying company but they make a solid product and gave me good customer service. I will say though that they might have peaked with Gen 2 stuff, the Gen 3 was terrible for me, same shaft and everything. 2019 0211 was better for me than their Gen 2 and 3 P's, XF's, etc.

 

[bogeypro]

Here's what I think happened:

 

They marketed themselves as luxury items. Then, they started getting a reputation as only being for a certain type of person.  Their image became more polarizing than positive.   Sales began to slow. Now, instead of trying to change the golf world, they are conforming to the same strategy as everyone else.  The problem is, they don't know how to do that.  This is why they still have horrible commercials, price fluctuations, poor distribution, and inconsistent customer service.  

[grm24]

59 minutes ago, bogeypro said:

Here's what I think happened:

 

They marketed themselves as luxury items. Then, they started getting a reputation as only being for a certain type of person.  Their image became more polarizing than positive.   Sales began to slow. Now, instead of trying to change the golf world, they are conforming to the same strategy as everyone else.  The problem is, they don't know how to do that.  This is why they still have horrible commercials, price fluctuations, poor distribution, and inconsistent customer service.  

[shackmangolf]

So the folks what bought Gen3 irons at $340/club and now are at $199/club. How do you feel?

 

To be honest. I bought gen2's at $349 and now see the newest gen3 at $199 club and it kind of rubs me the wrong way. I guess the technology isnt worth the premium. 

[mlf]

When they came out they were $425 a club.  I bought a set of 5-P, G for roughly $2,100 ($299 a club).  I enjoyed a summer playing some of the best golf ever and I attribute it to being custom fit.  If I bought the same set today it would save me $700.  Now, I am not one to say that is an insignificant amount but it may be the first summer I have not tried to change clubs which costs me more than $700 annually anyway.  I think they are a great set and if you were to be custom fit at Club Champion or another similar outfit, I would be near the same cost anyway.  I think every manufacturer makes great equipment and do not want to say they are better than everything out there, what I will say is these being custom fit, helped me play better and therefore I am very happy and do not have regrets.  I am a low single digit handicap for reference.

 

Additionally, I now look to my PXG fitter as someone who gives me a checkup a few times a year and as a result, I ended up in more of their product and feel very confident with every club in the bag.  Having the relationship is important.  Yes, the commercials are annoying but the cost stigma is now gone and I like that everyone does not ask me how much I paid for the set anymore which is a plus lol.  

[shackmangolf]

I appreciate not being asked how much I paid as well.

 

I like the performance of my PXG's but I have little to compare them to. But, my brand loyalty has come down significantly. I don't think I would buy another set of PXG's. Over the course of my life, I was a ping iron guy. I had four sets of Ping irons before settling on PXG. I had massive Ping brand loyalty.

 

I don't have the same with PXG. Why?

1) They've made some stupid business decisions and I don't respect that. Pricing is #1. 

2) Their marketing campaign actually hurts the performance aspects of their clubs. The dumbed down parsons approach is stupid and in contrast with the tech of his golf clubs

3) I can't prove this but the lack of comparison data cross brand makes me believe that they have a very aggressive legal team to make sure youtuber's are not comparing their products online. This also rubs me the wrong way. If you were the best, you would be happy to have the comparison. Look at titleist tsi3....

 

The success of PXG will be based on customer lifetime value. Without brand loyalty they are screwed. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by shackmangolf

[Kid B]

1 hour ago, shackmangolf said:

So the folks what bought Gen3 irons at $340/club and now are at $199/club. How do you feel?

 

To be honest. I bought gen2's at $349 and now see the newest gen3 at $199 club and it kind of rubs me the wrong way. I guess the technology isnt worth the premium. 

 

I guess I don't understand what I should have feelings about.  Is it because more people now have access to the same clubs you do?  Specifically people who couldn't afford them at the original price point?

 

Do you somehow feel your clubs are worth less now that the retail price has dropped?  I sort of understand the resale value argument, but golf clubs in general are a bad investment.  I always look at the money I spend on equipment as gone forever, it's helpful.  People who set out to recoup the purchase price of a golf club- to me- always sound like they're planning to get rid of something before they even bought it.  I understand that not every golf club is going to last you a decade, but isn't that what you hope for?  More than a season or two?

 

The price drops make perfect sense.  You have R&D costs, and production costs.  Once you've made back the R&D expenses and are only worried about production cost, you can lower prices.  And you really should, if you want to maximize sales.

 

This goes double for PXG.  The people who were willing to pay $425 per iron have already paid their money.  I doubt many of them are buying extra sets, so that market segment is pretty much tapped.  At that point, PXG could either maintain their pricing to try and preserve the perception of their brand as luxury/premium or get their product into the hands of as many golfers as possible and make some money on an aging product at the same time.  For short term profitability and longer term sales goals, there's only one option that makes any sense.  Plus they don't have to pay out to retailers like every other OEM, so margins are probably still pretty good.  I doubt it had anything to do with the actual or assigned value of the technology in the clubs.

 

The advertising doesn't bother me.  I bought their clubs in spite of it and would never base a golf purchase on advertising anyways.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the legal team thing.  Are you saying that they're going after people who do reviews of their equipment on youtube?

Edited March 1, 2021 by Kid B

[snagy2000]

42 minutes ago, shackmangolf said:

I appreciate not being asked how much I paid as well.

 

I like the performance of my PXG's but I have little to compare them to. But, my brand loyalty has come down significantly. I don't think I would buy another set of PXG's. Over the course of my life, I was a ping iron guy. I had four sets of Ping irons before settling on PXG. I had massive Ping brand loyalty.

 

I don't have the same with PXG. Why?

1) They've made some stupid business decisions and I don't respect that. Pricing is #1. 

2) Their marketing campaign actually hurts the performance aspects of their clubs. The dumbed down parsons approach is stupid and in contrast with the tech of his golf clubs

3) I can't prove this but the lack of comparison data cross brand makes me believe that they have a very aggressive legal team to make sure youtuber's are not comparing their products online. This also rubs me the wrong way. If you were the best, you would be happy to have the comparison. Look at titleist tsi3....

 

The success of PXG will be based on customer lifetime value. Without brand loyalty they are screwed. 

Good riddance buddy... I'm sure you will be missed... probably not!!!

 

[JackpotJohnny]

To all the people complaining about how much mo why they have lost, hang in there. 
I can see where the gen 4 will come out, not be discounted heavily, the 0211 will be the lower end brand, and when the gen2 & 3 sell out your used clubs will be back to what they were worth before the sale. 
It cannot go on like this forever, ans some of the prices are already creeping up. 

[miss0033]

1 hour ago, shackmangolf said:

I appreciate not being asked how much I paid as well.

 

I like the performance of my PXG's but I have little to compare them to. But, my brand loyalty has come down significantly. I don't think I would buy another set of PXG's. Over the course of my life, I was a ping iron guy. I had four sets of Ping irons before settling on PXG. I had massive Ping brand loyalty.

 

I don't have the same with PXG. Why?

1) They've made some stupid business decisions and I don't respect that. Pricing is #1. 

2) Their marketing campaign actually hurts the performance aspects of their clubs. The dumbed down parsons approach is stupid and in contrast with the tech of his golf clubs

3) I can't prove this but the lack of comparison data cross brand makes me believe that they have a very aggressive legal team to make sure youtuber's are not comparing their products online. This also rubs me the wrong way. If you were the best, you would be happy to have the comparison. Look at titleist tsi3....

 

The success of PXG will be based on customer lifetime value. Without brand loyalty they are screwed. 

 

When I played Hockey, I wore Graf skates.  Graf Skates were at one time the one of the most popular skates in the NHL.  Graf didn't pay NHL players to wear their skates (or anything else), they wanted the equipment to speak for itself.  Many players were getting paid to wear certain brands, most getting them for free at least.  Now you have players wearing completely custom skates with retail "shells" on them.  It says Bauer, because he is under a Bauer contract, but nothing in the guts of the skate is Bauer.  Little Johnny can't go buy those skates.    

 

I am not saying PXG is doing this.  But maybe they are limiting how much "free" equipment they are giving away for youtubers to "test" and such, and help keep price down and more affordable.  How many big name clubs get sent all over for testing, in-store demos in 1000s of retail locations, etc.  That is all overhead costs that PXG is choosing not to have.  Maybe they aren't interested in having tons of YouTube testers.  Wanting people to get fit at PXG rather than buying blindly.

 

Graf felt they made the best skates, and NHLers choosing to pay for their own skates to wear them spoke volumes.  Now ultimately Graf went out of business in North America.  Who knows, maybe PXG won't last either.  I am not a fan of their advertising.  However, I was a fan of a fitted set of irons for $600 and a Driver for $365, when other brands were charging $1,200+ for irons and $600+ for drivers.  And I didn't feel like I was missing out on much.  Happy that new Irons and Driver actually became accessible to me.

Edited March 1, 2021 by miss0033

[wrm2120]

I got fit for the 0211ST blades this past weekend. The experience was great. I am sure an in-depth fitting is always going to improve a player's performance, and that was among the best I've had so far. 

 

 

 

[AmazinBlue]

You can't survive selling $3k sets of irons and $900 drivers for long.  That elite market is very small and won't sustain a company for long.  His margins are so high, by undercutting his own pricing he is most likely still making a decent profit overall, just not a huge one per item like he was before.

History has shown, there are a few mainstays in the OEM golf market and many that come and go.  Many made great products for a while, but the big boys are big for a reason.  I'm curious to see where Bridgestone and Cleveland end up.  Bridgestone has to be living and dying with their golf balls, because I don't know anyone who buys their clubs.  And Cleveland may have a few winners with some of the new wedges and some putters (I play the Huntington Beach Soft 11), but my guess is they still exist because of Srixon balls and irons.

 

I don't know what golf balls really cost to make, I imagine all the money is wrapped up in R&D and marketing, but Titleist owns the golf ball market and until the last year or two it seems like their equipment was considered to be slightly less than what TM, Callaway and Ping are producing. Titleist's newest drivers are the talk of the marketplace and the purists still gravitate toward their irons, but the masses seem to lean more toward TM, Callaway and Ping, except for balls, Titleist owns that market.

[GoGoErky]

18 hours ago, shackmangolf said:

So the folks what bought Gen3 irons at $340/club and now are at $199/club. How do you feel?

 

To be honest. I bought gen2's at $349 and now see the newest gen3 at $199 club and it kind of rubs me the wrong way. I guess the technology isnt worth the premium. 

Literally has no impact on me or my feelings. I bought gen2 then shortly after getting them they put them in the heroes pricing which would have saved me money but I wanted the gen2 so ordered them and gamed them and didn’t care.

 

the price of the gen3 didn’t just drop to the current price of $179 or even to the $249 or $199 price til roughly a year after they were released. Had I bought them at the original price I wouldn’t be upset again because they would have been something I wanted. I bought them at $199 and the price dropped to $179 within a few days. Didn’t even concern me.

 

[new2g0lf]

PXG is doing the same thing Mercedes, BMW and Porsche did.  They made high end expensive cars that could only be afforded by a small percentage of the population and when sales became stagnant, they slowly released new models at a lower price points.  

PXG got a glimpse to their potential sales each time they'd run a clearance sale on a previous generation of club.  They realized they could gain larger market share by offering a lower price model while still maintaining the margins and exclusivity on their 0311 models.  I think it's smart business, the more bags filled with PXG clubs, the more likely someone else will consider PXG the next time they go shopping for clubs.  

[new2g0lf]

2 hours ago, AmazinBlue said:

You can't survive selling $3k sets of irons and $900 drivers for long.  That elite market is very small and won't sustain a company for long.  His margins are so high, by undercutting his own pricing he is most likely still making a decent profit overall, just not a huge one per item like he was before.

History has shown, there are a few mainstays in the OEM golf market and many that come and go.  Many made great products for a while, but the big boys are big for a reason.  I'm curious to see where Bridgestone and Cleveland end up.  Bridgestone has to be living and dying with their golf balls, because I don't know anyone who buys their clubs.  And Cleveland may have a few winners with some of the new wedges and some putters (I play the Huntington Beach Soft 11), but my guess is they still exist because of Srixon balls and irons.

 

I don't know what golf balls really cost to make, I imagine all the money is wrapped up in R&D and marketing, but Titleist owns the golf ball market and until the last year or two it seems like their equipment was considered to be slightly less than what TM, Callaway and Ping are producing. Titleist's newest drivers are the talk of the marketplace and the purists still gravitate toward their irons, but the masses seem to lean more toward TM, Callaway and Ping, except for balls, Titleist owns that market.

You scale the business to your revenue and profits, PXG entered the market as a high end provider of golf equipment and built their reputation on that.  Parsons is very wealthy and doesn't need PXG to keep a roof over his head.  He can keep the doors open on PXG for as long as he wants to be involved in the golf business.  The factors that influence other golf businesses don't apply to PXG.  

Golf equipment is an afterthought for Bridgestone, their focus is golf balls because it's complementary to their core business.  Cleveland has Srixon and XXIO behind it under Dunlop, they have much better sales outside the US than they do within the US.  XXIO and Srixon are gaining market share in the US, which will only strengthen their brand long term.  

While I agree Titleist controls the golf ball market, they are losing share every year.  We're seeing Titleist for the first time reacting to what their competition is doing and changing their product offering to compete against their rivals products.  This is a key change within Titleist who were the trend setters and are now being forced to respond to their competitors offerings or risk losing market share.  Pro V's are the #1 ball on Tour, but I see guys playing a lot more different balls today than I did 5 years ago.  

[bladehunter]

On 2/3/2021 at 12:12 PM, Eric05 said:

 

Well, based off that. It seems like they just have inventory they are looking to move. I do think its a turn off as well. It's like a car dealership. That list's a car at lets say 35,000. Someone comes in offers 33,000. They say no. And then a week later they end up offering it at the 33,000. Losing all creditability. 

 

They are in a position that's tough. I know he has the money. And listen when you die. It's not going with you, so let him spend it. But he doesn't have many tour professionals. The cheaper product is nice. But also think back about Nike. Nike had Tiger, Rory, Brooks, and many more. And they just said forget about clubs at this point. You can only do so much marketing.

Eh.  Equating credibility to a car dealership isn’t really being realistic.  That’s never been the goal.  Lol.  
 

Having been in the game in a former life , and then later being hit by the other end of this as a customer.   I Get it.  You’re hoping to hook up somebody while the pie is hot.  Once it cools off , the price  for a slice goes way down.    It’s as much customer arrogance as it is lack of character on the dealers part.  
 

 Remember when I said I was hit by the other side  of this   ?  2003 when the mustang mach1 was reintroduced..... I wanted one.  But not just any.  A black one with stripe delete , and a 5 speed.  Long story short. They made 25 or so just like that.  And I found one ..... and made an offer at $1k under their ask.  They refused to sell it for that.   We argued for 3 hours.  I walked.  Laughing to myself. “ they’ll call tomorow “ I said.  They did.  To tell me it had sold .   And I never bought one from then until now. I did however run up on a smoking deal on a 03 GT.  It’s in the small garage now with 23k miles on it. And  it makes me mad to this day.  Why ?  Because  it should be a new Mach 1 sitting there.  Not the GT.  I lost money due to depreciation on the GT.  The Mach 1 however with that mileage is now  past sticker and appreciating in value.  Pride.  That’s what stopped me.  
 

point. It’s a 2 way street.  

[new2g0lf]

On 2/3/2021 at 12:12 PM, Eric05 said:

 

Well, based off that. It seems like they just have inventory they are looking to move. I do think its a turn off as well. It's like a car dealership. That list's a car at lets say 35,000. Someone comes in offers 33,000. They say no. And then a week later they end up offering it at the 33,000. Losing all creditability. 

 

They are in a position that's tough. I know he has the money. And listen when you die. It's not going with you, so let him spend it. But he doesn't have many tour professionals. The cheaper product is nice. But also think back about Nike. Nike had Tiger, Rory, Brooks, and many more. And they just said forget about clubs at this point. You can only do so much marketing.

People expect to haggle at a car dealership.  Demand and inventory changes daily, maybe the dealership only had 1 black car left and they knew they could get $35K, then they got a shipment of black cars and called customers back offering the car at $33K.  I don't see many people haggle golf clubs, they either pay the sticker / sale price or they wait to that model is replaced and hope to get it on clearance rack.  

I don't think tour professionals influence golf club sales as much as many think.   When Tiger was dominating, yes, but today, anyone can win and with any manufacturers clubs.  Beside Bryson / Cobra single length irons I'm not aware of my clients customers running into their stores asking for the driver that the last PGA Tour tournament winner used.   PXG has done a good job marketing their brand, people know who they are, think they are high end and think given the price tag they must be good - great clubs.  I've had a lot of people ask me about my PXG's and none of them voiced concern about their PGA Tour representation.  

[1Mordrid1]

On 2/3/2021 at 10:39 AM, LeoLeo99 said:

I think Bob over estimated the demand for over priced golf equipment and they are spiraling towards extinction.  They were the Louie Vuitton of golf clubs.   Now, I'm not sure what they are trying to be.  Can't be everything to everyone.  

I don't think he over-estimated it at all...If anything he saw the market before the other OEMs did. Now most of the OEMs have a high priced "premium" line, and they raised the price of their "normal" lineups.

 

Personally I can see PXG pricing as a strategic move with a hint of "revenge". When Parsons started making clubs, several major OEMs laughed at him and made public statements of how his company could not last and would fail. Then when PXG did not go belly up, those same OEM's decided they wanted part of that "high end" market as well. So maybe PXG just decided if they are going after the market that they said did not exist, then he should go after theirs as well. 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by 1Mordrid1

[snagy2000]

56 minutes ago, 1Mordrid1 said:

I don't think he over-estimated it at all...If anything he saw the market before the other OEMs did. Now most of the OEMs have a high priced "premium" line, and they raised the price of their "normal" lineups.

 

Personally I can see PXG pricing as a strategic move with a hint of "revenge". When Parsons started making clubs, several major OEMs laughed at him and made public statements of how his company could not last and would fail. Then when PXG did not go belly up, those same OEM's decided they wanted part of that "high end" market as well. So maybe PXG just decided if they are going after the market that they said did not exist, then he should go after theirs as well. 

 

Very gangsta!!!

 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by snagy2000

[tomuch23]

2021 0211 clubs are the real deal. Going with a full set. Hit them last week and after trying the new srixons, tm, and mizunos since then I've made up my mind after comparing everything. Yes the lofts are 1 to 2° stronger but accuracy was the best also. Crazy considering the price (heros for me) but even without that they are a bargain. Really wanted to like the gen 3 p/xp but those also lost out to the 0211. 0311/Zx5 look better from the back but I don't care about that s+it anymore. Need to commit to what works. 

[OKMrazor]

On 3/1/2021 at 3:04 PM, shackmangolf said:

So the folks what bought Gen3 irons at $340/club and now are at $199/club. How do you feel?

 

To be honest. I bought gen2's at $349 and now see the newest gen3 at $199 club and it kind of rubs me the wrong way. I guess the technology isnt worth the premium. 

I was driver shopping this fall and checked out both the Mavrik + Titleist TS-series, each discounted to 350-ish as a new model was soon coming out.  I also picked up a couple  new Cleveland RTX4s for about $50 less than the newer model already out.

 

This is nothing new and certainly not unique to PXG  - the idea that feelings could be hurt because an older model is discounted is preposterous.

 

The 0211 release (broadening the market reach/demographic) I can perhaps see as a questionable choice for a brand focused prestige, but that's a different argument entirely (and not a move for which I'd necessarily fault them).

 

 

[miss0033]

In the last few days there have been some increases...

 

The Battle Ready putters went from $285 to $295, now at $395.

 

The 0311 Forged Wedges went from $149 to $199.

 

So if you bought a battle ready putter at $285 and didn't care for it, you might be able to sell it right now for more than you paid for it.

[tcbringhurst]

1 hour ago, miss0033 said:

In the last few days there have been some increases...

 

The Battle Ready putters went from $285 to $295, now at $395.

 

The 0311 Forged Wedges went from $149 to $199.

 

So if you bought a battle ready putter at $285 and didn't care for it, you might be able to sell it right now for more than you paid for it.

I timed it well with my putter and wedge purchase. Got my new putter a month ago, and placed my wedge order literally the day before the price increase.

 

Now, that entire bag deal they have... that is something I will likely do if they continue to offer it in 5 or so years when it's time to change my equipment

[JackpotJohnny]

I think the prices go back when the get 2 & 3 inventory depletes and they release the gen 4 stuff. 
you sold a ton of product, increased the market share, and if you accomplished brand loyalty, those customers will keep buying even with the higher prices. Maybe they do a sale and inventory dump once a year from there on out. 

[woodriff]

OP’s question was ... what’s going on at PXG. 
Bob Parsons yelling at everyone, that’s what’s going on. 
w

[jason1635]

I bought full PXG bag to try out everything.  Price was right and figured I could re-sell items I didn't like and form opinions about  a lot of hyped equipment and have fun doing it.

 

For this reason I choose non-upgrade shafts, as many fit me just fine.

Came away from experience surprised, as the things I expected (great customer service rock-solid irons, iffy woods/wedges) were polar opposite in reality--I am glad I tried as have been curious.

 

* Their marketing and faux-military branding is....embarrassing to me (personal opinion only)

*  (9.5/10)Proto X+ Driver with Smoke shaft is beautiful for me.  order at 44.5 inches and at 10.5 degrees have found it 10-15 yds shorter on bombs than my Mizuno ST 200, but so much tighter dispersion and consistent--no more hooks for me...

*  50/56/60 Wedges (9.5/10) with Tour elevate x shaft (always played wedge or S shaft before) are... beautiful and deadly precise.  Slightly less versatile sole than my miura HB or C grind, but wonderful from chips to full shots, only thing I don't hit as much is a layer out flop shot as the grind doesn't make this as easy.  I hit dead straight with these at all distances

* 0311P gen 3 iron (7.5/10) nice, but can't stand up to my Mizuno 921 HMP--dont notice "feel" difference significantly and shorter with less tight dispersion.  For me,  not good enough, but still nice and feel/look good. Debating whether to keep or sell 3-PW set, but driver and 5W and wedges keepers.

* BAT attack putter (6/10)...really wanted to like, feels heavy compared too SC Phantom 7.5 and lacks touch/distance control--possibly user error as I didn't give it time and greens fast this spring in Maryland...

 

Overall fun experience and found a few keepers at low risk for me...

Their customer service (4/10) is abysmal and iron came covered in goo and out of spec (lie) and actual bag still has not arrived...

[kuch]

1 hour ago, jason1635 said:

 

 

* Their marketing and faux-military branding is....embarrassing to me (personal opinion only)

 

Honestly, this is the number one reason keeping me away from the brand......I just don't like the skull theme........ not just PXG but any brand.  Like you just my personal tastes and opinion.

[OKMrazor]

48 minutes ago, kuch said:

Honestly, this is the number one reason keeping me away from the brand......I just don't like the skull theme........ not just PXG but any brand.  Like you just my personal tastes and opinion.

 

I hate in-your-face, loud branding/marketing.  Luckily, I've never seen a PXG commercial because I really like the PXG items I have (driver, putter, hybrid) and the low-key color scheme is refreshingly tasteful in a world full of bright orange, reds + lime green.  I've heard the commercials are outlandish which would have probably turned me off from trying some equipment with which I've been very pleased.

 

The ordering process was nice + thorough, they've called to check up on how everything is working (shortened shafts, adjusted head for SW, got the logo-down on the grip - all correct)... just a solid experience overall that I certainly wouldn't expect out of of big box store (who charges full price for new and discounts for last years models), but would hope to expect if I was paying a premium for a fitter or a custom order via phone or online.  From my perspective, they're doing things the way they should be done.