Rory's Rant - Distance Insights Project - Your thoughts?

[storm319]

For those not aware of the USGAs ball regulation history, I have summarized it below. Everything meaningful to universal distance gains as it pertains to the ball has been regulated since 1980. 

 

1921 - initial weight and size regulation

1931 - changes to weight (lower maximum) and size (larger minimum) regulations

1932 - reverted back to original weight maximum

1942 - Initial Velocity limit adopted

1976 - Overall Distance Standard adopted

1980 - Symmetry standard adopted

1984 - ODS test tolerance reduced

2003 - Phase II/ODS and symmetry test implemented

[mokedaddy]

10 minutes ago, storm319 said:

That article is wrong about the ball never being rolled back as the USGA increased the minimum diameter in 1931. With that said, the shifts from the feathery to the gutty and then the gutty to the wound were both way more drastic than the shift from wound to solid core.

I grew up playing wound balls and other than the fact they were expensive sometimes not round and delicate I never found a huge difference between them and the solid balls of today.  And that was balata vs urethane.  Ionomer balls were even more similar.  I still play the spinniest ball I can find.

Edited February 25, 2021 by mokedaddy

[gvogel]

48 minutes ago, mokedaddy said:

Bobby Jones wanted to rollback the ball in 1927.

https://www.golfcompendium.com/2019/12/bobby-jones-wanted-to-roll-back-golf.html

 

 

Bobby Jones was way ahead of his time.

 

They did change the specs of the ball in 1931 to make it lighter than before.  During that year, many protested about the new "floater", particularly about its play into the wind.  The USGA changed back to a heavier ball in 1932.

 

Some former pros think that the USGA should mandate a larger diameter ball.  It would actually help the less skilled golfer, while reducing the distance of the most proficient.

[ALIF]

I’d like to play the small ball, the old European one.

[mahonie]

7 hours ago, bigred90gt said:

And nothing is stopping you from playing the game as you see fit. All of the equipment you want to play is within the rules now. I just fail to see the issue, and why you think it needs to change for everyone else. 

A couple of things.

 

1. Have you tried getting hold of balata balls recently? 

 

2. 90% of my rounds are in some form of competitive environment or other...be it club, inter-club or regional competitions. Unfortunately to be competitive, I am forced to adopt the 460cc/wedge game. The winners of these competitions are typically the ones that drive it long (not necessarily straight), have a half-decent wedge game and hole a few putts. That is what golf has become and as I said before it is a poor excuse for what the game once was.

 

I am genuinely sorry that you think there is nothing wrong with the game as it is. I suppose if you haven’t experienced the game in its former glory you don’t know what you have missed and that goes for anyone who started playing in the last 20 years.

[bigred90gt]

15 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

Molinari topped a 3 wood last week, Wolfe whiffed several down the stretch at the US open. Ive seen it live several times.

 

Never, ever with a 460. Can barely think of the last time I saw anyone who wasnt an outright hacker top a 460.

Come play a round with me. As I said, single digit index and I top one nearly every round. It happens. 

[bigred90gt]

15 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

 

I watch plenty of golf in person and on the box.. Id be staggered if the proportion of holes playing drive wedge hasnt risen substantially in the 460 era.. is there a stat to show this on the pga tour site?

 

You are touching on the problem for amateurs in your second point but not actually quite getting it.. it takes close to zero skill or even instruction to make decent contact with a 460 at the range, even for someone who has never played, and once theyve done it a few times they figure out the game is easy, head to the course, top 5 iron shots in a row and give up. 

I never said driver/wedge wasn’t a more frequent occurrence than previous generations. I said it’s not the dominant combination over the course of a round/tournament. I watch 2-4 rounds of almost every televised PGA Tour tournament, every week, and I see far less driver/wedge than I do driver/any other club. It just isn’t as prevalent as some people love to complain about. You see 2-4 guys, the longest of the long (DJ, BD, Rory, Koepka) hitting that combo more frequently (but still not the majority of holes), but at any given tournament there are 152 additional players in the field. It’s just not the problem some want it to be. 

[bigred90gt]

16 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

 

what has score got to do with it?

Uhhhhh, score is the only metric that matters in tournament golf. Lowest score wins, everything g else is simply a means to get there. 

[bigred90gt]

6 hours ago, mahonie said:

A couple of things.

 

1. Have you tried getting hold of balata balls recently? 

 

2. 90% of my rounds are in some form of competitive environment or other...be it club, inter-club or regional competitions. Unfortunately to be competitive, I am forced to adopt the 460cc/wedge game. The winners of these competitions are typically the ones that drive it long (not necessarily straight), have a half-decent wedge game and hole a few putts. That is what golf has become and as I said before it is a poor excuse for what the game once was.

 

I am genuinely sorry that you think there is nothing wrong with the game as it is. I suppose if you haven’t experienced the game in its former glory you don’t know what you have missed and that goes for anyone who started playing in the last 20 years.

If you spent the time and energy honing your skills for approach shots and short game, you could easily compete with a rolled back driver of your choice. You lose what, 20-30 yards with a rolled back driver, so instead of SW, you’re hitting PW-9i. Practice more. 
 

I’m not sorry at all. I did not start playing until I was in my 20s back in 04.  It was the right time in my life to pick up the game. I’ve watched plenty of golf from what you consider the “glory days”, and I enjoy watching it. I’m sure if I played the game then I would also enjoy playing it. But I also enjoy evolution and advances in technology in al aspects of life, so I wouldn’t be bothered by the changes that have occurred. 
 

there are leagues that play old style clubs, retro leagues so to speak. If you yearn for the days of yore, but want to play competitive golf, join one. Then you don’t have to worry about not being competitive and you get to play reduced performance clubs. All the while not Mucking up the game for those who enjoy it as it exists. Your position and desire to roll back the game is nothing but pure selfishness. You want the game changed for everyone that plays it for no reason other than what YOU want out of the game, even though what you want out of the game is readily available to you as we speak today, within the rules as they exist today. Perhaps some perspective would be good on your part. Maybe the humility to realize that this global game, enjoyed by millions across the globe, is about more than just you and your desires. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by bigred90gt

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, bigred90gt said:

Uhhhhh, score is the only metric that matters in tournament golf. Lowest score wins, everything g else is simply a means to get there. 

 

its nothing to do with the distance debate 

[bigred90gt]

3 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

its nothing to do with the distance debate 

Uhhh, it has EVERYTHING to do with the distance debate. Otherwise, why would it matter if people are hitting driver/wedge? The reason it matters is it "makes the game easier", which translates to it "lowers scores". You cannot disconnect the two.

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, bigred90gt said:

I never said driver/wedge wasn’t a more frequent occurrence than previous generations. I said it’s not the dominant combination over the course of a round/tournament. I watch 2-4 rounds of almost every televised PGA Tour tournament, every week, and I see far less driver/wedge than I do driver/any other club. It just isn’t as prevalent as some people love to complain about. You see 2-4 guys, the longest of the long (DJ, BD, Rory, Koepka) hitting that combo more frequently (but still not the majority of holes), but at any given tournament there are 152 additional players in the field. It’s just not the problem some want it to be. 

 

maybe not if you include par 5's

 

lets say there are usually 11 par 4's. Id make a solid bet in a typical week most of the field hits pw or less into at least 6 of them. Id actually like to know. Certainly cant recall too many long iron/wood approaches (assuming a decent drive) over the years 

[milesgiles]

1 minute ago, bigred90gt said:

Uhhh, it has EVERYTHING to do with the distance debate. Otherwise, why would it matter if people are hitting driver/wedge? The reason it matters is it "makes the game easier", which translates to it "lowers scores". You cannot disconnect the two.

 

i dont think its mentioned in the usga/r and a report and none of the rollbackers here have mentioned score (unless they dont understand the debate)

[clevited]

1 hour ago, milesgiles said:

 

i dont think its mentioned in the usga/r and a report and none of the rollbackers here have mentioned score (unless they dont understand the debate)

 

Just some context for what @bigred90gt is referring to.  I am not sure if you have been around for some of these debates we had in past years threads regarding this, but the same talking points from roll backers come around over and over again.  It may not have been mentioned as much in this thread yet but there are definitely plenty of roll backers that bring up score.  Below are the talking points that always get brought up in these threads as reason for fighting distance in golf.

 

-scores too low, need to protect par

-diminishing skill to play the game at a high level

-boring to watch on tv

-makes old historical courses obsolete

-makes new and existing courses have to spend tons of extra money and is harsher on the environment because they need to make them longer to battle distance.  Land costs or availability are a factor when adding extra length to combat distance.

 

That pretty much summarizes the most common talking points, and bigred has been around for most if not all of these epic and redundant debates here.

[JDCON]

I say we play the game the same way the ancient Greeks did and just be naked on the course. That would fix the problems with length.

[milesgiles]

56 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Just some context for what @bigred90gt is referring to.  I am not sure if you have been around for some of these debates we had in past years threads regarding this, but the same talking points from roll backers come around over and over again.  It may not have been mentioned as much in this thread yet but there are definitely plenty of roll backers that bring up score.  Below are the talking points that always get brought up in these threads as reason for fighting distance in golf.

 

-scores too low, need to protect par

-diminishing skill to play the game at a high level

-boring to watch on tv

-makes old historical courses obsolete

-makes new and existing courses have to spend tons of extra money and is harsher on the environment because they need to make them longer to battle distance.  Land costs or availability are a factor when adding extra length to combat distance.

 

That pretty much summarizes the most common talking points, and bigred has been around for most if not all of these epic and redundant debates here.

 

fair enough i havent debated this as at any length more than a year ago. Score hasnt been mentioned by any of the ardent rollbackers in that time that ive noticed 

[milesgiles]

2 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

maybe not if you include par 5's

 

lets say there are usually 11 par 4's. Id make a solid bet in a typical week most of the field hits pw or less into at least 6 of them. Id actually like to know. Certainly cant recall too many long iron/wood approaches (assuming a decent drive) over the years 

 

Nicklaus used to say his record in majors was so good because of his long iron play, and certainly when i started watching around 92 Im sure it was still critical to scoring well.

 

Anyone want to chime in with any data? Average approach club on par 4's year to year (allowing for loft changes to irons)? 

[bigred90gt]

7 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Nicklaus used to say his record in majors was so good because of his long iron play, and certainly when i started watching around 92 Im sure it was still critical to scoring well.

 

Anyone want to chime in with any data? Average approach club on par 4's year to year (allowing for loft changes to irons)? 

Being that you are advocating for changing the rules to suit what you feel the game should be, I would think the onus is on you to provide that information. I know that when I watch golf every week, I see less wedge shot approaches than I do anything else.

Edited February 25, 2021 by bigred90gt

[milesgiles]

12 minutes ago, bigred90gt said:

Being that you are advocating for changing the rules to suit what you feel the game should be, I would think the onus is on you to provide that information. I know that when I watch golf every week, I see less wedge shot approaches than I do anything else.

 

not really, the basket was moved down a foot 20 years ago and id like it put back (to extend the basketball anology)

[mahonie]

5 hours ago, bigred90gt said:

If you spent the time and energy honing your skills for approach shots and short game, you could easily compete with a rolled back driver of your choice. You lose what, 20-30 yards with a rolled back driver, so instead of SW, you’re hitting PW-9i. Practice more. 
 

I’m not sorry at all. I did not start playing until I was in my 20s back in 04.  It was the right time in my life to pick up the game. I’ve watched plenty of golf from what you consider the “glory days”, and I enjoy watching it. I’m sure if I played the game then I would also enjoy playing it. But I also enjoy evolution and advances in technology in al aspects of life, so I wouldn’t be bothered by the changes that have occurred. 
 

there are leagues that play old style clubs, retro leagues so to speak. If you yearn for the days of yore, but want to play competitive golf, join one. Then you don’t have to worry about not being competitive and you get to play reduced performance clubs. All the while not Mucking up the game for those who enjoy it as it exists. Your position and desire to roll back the game is nothing but pure selfishness. You want the game changed for everyone that plays it for no reason other than what YOU want out of the game, even though what you want out of the game is readily available to you as we speak today, within the rules as they exist today. Perhaps some perspective would be good on your part. Maybe the humility to realize that this global game, enjoyed by millions across the globe, is about more than just you and your desires. 

My personal desires don’t come into it. My fear is for the future of the game...where you’re taking it by letting technology take over is off the cliff. The drive for technological advancement means that everything has to be measured and turned into a statistic. In turn that takes skill and natural talent out of the game...you can see it already.

 

It won’t be long before yardage lines are painted on every fairway, bumpers added along the fairways and you’ll be allowed to tee up every shot.

 

I don’t know, perhaps a lot of the anti-rollback sentiment is driven by a fear of not having the skill to compete anymore if spinnier balls and smaller clubheads are brought back? Any lack of talent and ability will be immediately visible if the training wheels are taken off.

 

Talking of which, our lockdown is being eased and we can get back out the course after 29 March...having not picked a club up since last August my lack of skill, ability and talent will only be too obvious.

[clevited]

2 hours ago, bigred90gt said:

Being that you are advocating for changing the rules to suit what you feel the game should be, I would think the onus is on you to provide that information. I know that when I watch golf every week, I see less wedge shot approaches than I do anything else.

 

Lets not forget that a PW in today's loft could be a 9i or even an 8i in ye olden days.

[bigred90gt]

44 minutes ago, mahonie said:

My personal desires don’t come into it. My fear is for the future of the game...where you’re taking it by letting technology take over is off the cliff. The drive for technological advancement means that everything has to be measured and turned into a statistic. In turn that takes skill and natural talent out of the game...you can see it already.

 

It won’t be long before yardage lines are painted on every fairway, bumpers added along the fairways and you’ll be allowed to tee up every shot.

 

I don’t know, perhaps a lot of the anti-rollback sentiment is driven by a fear of not having the skill to compete anymore if spinnier balls and smaller clubheads are brought back? Any lack of talent and ability will be immediately visible if the training wheels are taken off.

 

Talking of which, our lockdown is being eased and we can get back out the course after 29 March...having not picked a club up since last August my lack of skill, ability and talent will only be too obvious.

Now you’re just being dramatic for the sake of being dramatic. Bumpers and teeing up every shot? lol, sure thing guy. 
 

some of us don’t compete, we just enjoy the game. I do occasionally play a skins with my buddies, but I would probably be better off than most of them in a rollback, as I’m one of the longer guys in our group. I just think if they leave things where they are, the game will be fine. No reason to go backward. 

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

5 hours ago, clevited said:

 

 

 

That pretty much summarizes the most common talking points, and bigred has been around for most if not all of these epic and redundant debates here.

I'm hoping this is another 50 page thread!

[mahonie]

1 hour ago, bigred90gt said:

Now you’re just being dramatic for the sake of being dramatic. Bumpers and teeing up every shot? lol, sure thing guy. 
 

some of us don’t compete, we just enjoy the game. I do occasionally play a skins with my buddies, but I would probably be better off than most of them in a rollback, as I’m one of the longer guys in our group. I just think if they leave things where they are, the game will be fine. No reason to go backward. 

Sorry I didn’t mean bumpers, 50 yard wide fairways is the same thing.

 

Sorry again...playing golf and not competing is not playing golf! Surely you’re competing against the course and yourself if nothing else? Without that it is just meaningless and a good walk spoiled and all that..makes your stance a bit clearer and I’m cool with that.

[bigred90gt]

1 hour ago, mahonie said:

Sorry I didn’t mean bumpers, 50 yard wide fairways is the same thing.

 

Sorry again...playing golf and not competing is not playing golf! Surely you’re competing against the course and yourself if nothing else? Without that it is just meaningless and a good walk spoiled and all that..makes your stance a bit clearer and I’m cool with that.

Of course I’m “competing” against the course to shoot the lowest score I can, otherwise I’d be out fishing. That to me isn’t competition. Competition is against other people. But now we’re just getting into semantics. 
 

I have said many times to narrow the fairways and grow the rough. Some of the fairways they play on are absolutely absurdly wide. Doing that would literally cost nothing and result in zero changes to any regulations. 
 

I used to play tournament golf on an amateur tour in Houston. Even went to the national championship. Used to love it. A few back surgeries and second marriage later, I now play simply because I love the game and I don’t play nearly to the level I used to. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by bigred90gt

[bigred90gt]

3 hours ago, clevited said:

 

Lets not forget that a PW in today's loft could be a 9i or even an 8i in ye olden days.

Oh come on now, you can’t go throwing logic into it. 

[kasting333]

8 hours ago, JDCON said:

I say we play the game the same way the ancient Greeks did and just be naked on the course. That would fix the problems with length.

The usga would start regulating circumcisions 

[Simpsonia]

14 hours ago, bigred90gt said:

Oh come on now, you can’t go throwing logic into it. 

 

You guys realize that none of the tour players are actually using modern game improvement irons with jacked lofts, right? They're using tour blades with pretty much the same lofts as Jack used in his day. The P7TW lofts, variants which are used by most of the Taylormade signed guys, are actually slightly weaker than Ben Hogan's irons were. 

[bladehunter]

7 minutes ago, Simpsonia said:

 

You guys realize that none of the tour players are actually using modern game improvement irons with jacked lofts, right? They're using tour blades with pretty much the same lofts as Jack used in his day. The P7TW lofts, variants which are used by most of the Taylormade signed guys, are actually slightly weaker than Ben Hogan's irons were. 

huh ?  Rory’s published pw loft last week was 46.5.  
 

all t100 titleist players are 46. 
 

how do explain so many 50-52 degree gap wedges ?  Surely those arent behind a 50 degree Pw? 

Edited February 26, 2021 by bladehunter

[PedronNiall]

It's been said in this thread and 15 others like it: when fairways are slicker than the North Face of a mountain after a bluebird day--think very icy--is it any wonder certain holes become trivial? Stop shaving fairways down to the dirt. If someone bombs it 315 through the air then let them have all the yards they earned. If they do the same and put it in the rough penalize them if they don't have the ability to get it out. Place new trees, shrubs, whatever--it's good for the environment anyway, eh--and find new ways to make the course challenging. Players today shouldn't have the exact same experience playing Oakmont as Johnny did back in '76, nor should players decades from now be looking at the same course as today.

 

Maybe if the USGA learned how to INNOVATE more often instead of regulate everything to death they wouldn't be viewed as out of touch bureaucrats the way they are and the game would continue to move forward smoothly.