Deep weeds question, I had an Ah ha moment..... (to many to count LOL) this one seems different.

[Exactice808]

Hey Gang, I have a really in the weeds questions and what to dive into it.

 

Golf sucks,  Re watched something on the motorcycle move,  did it and added it with exaggeration and found A LOT of things.

 

 

SHORT (TLDR) Version,  Motorcycle move does A LOT more than just "bowing the left wrist".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) Long time early extender.

2) Miss both ways big, when its bad days,  Big slices and ugly duck hooks.( Poor face control)

 

 

I was afraid of the motorcycle move and left wrist bow because, Standing static bowing the wrist, it closes the face and delofts the club a lot.  Creating doubt and fear in my mind that its skulls (or cant get it off the ground) and big lefts. Tried it but always hesitant and no commitment.

 

 

OK to the weeds..... with the missing both ways and EE etc,

 

When you apply the motorcycle move on the downswing, the first thing I noticed is that it forces the right elbow to drive forward/or in towards the body. (I have tried for a while to do it independently, drive elbow in towards the stomach, with massive failed results).  Originally leaving the wrist static, the elbow seems to hang back.  This was the first, light bulb, the right elbow drops in.

 

Next with the elbow moving in.  It then maintains the bend/flex, and also seems more parallel to target line.   If I dont bow the left wrist,  the right arms seems to extend and move outwards to the ball rather down the target line.  (To try and square the face to the ball) Many times with artificially, trying to keep the elbow in,  (not bowing the left hand) The Club face is WIDE open and the shaft is moving towards the ball and "$h@^&s" show up right?  BUT if you bow the left wrist it shuts the face down,  pushes your elbow into your stomach and moves the shaft away from the ball?

 

 

Ok now,  FACE angle at impact,  MY absolute WORST ability.  My face angles are horrible.  Already doubting the the motorcycle move as a major deloft and closed face, I think the ball is going left.  Oddly our bodies are amazing.

 

Using foam balls out of fear.  The moment I start the down swing I really flex both my left (bow) and right (cup) wrist, exaggerating this.   The next lightbulb was, now that I flexed the wrist, the FACE angle is actually static, its not moving around or  "timing" to open/close.  Its actually neutral to target line. 

 

The reason it seemed delofted and closed at static standing is that the "wrist C0ck" is not there or the "flip/release".  But when you maintain right elbow bend, and (lag) the club face is actually moving "square" through impact. the longer you hold the "Lag & bowed left wrist" the longer the face stays square, if you bow the left wrist and let the lag go this is where the face closes. 

 

Ok with the above,  to reach the ball you have 2 choices, 

 

1) Release the lag (pre impact/flip),  But with a bowed left wrist, face is closed to path. and ball goes way left,

2) Squat and get lower to the ball, to maintain lag or forward shaft lean at impact, with minimal release (before impact) and ROTATE around the body.

 

#2, now stops me from early extending, it actually keeps me down at impact, rather than standing up and throwing the club head at the ball. And forces me to "rotate" to keep the club head moving 

 

 

*quick check* - Just by bowing the left wrist on the down swing (for me)

 

1) Right elbow moves inwards instead of outwards

2) Right elbow/arm maintains flex at impact

3) Face angle is actually SQUARE through shaft parallel 3-9

4) To reach the ball I have to squat to reach the ball, if not I have to release the lag early but club face is pointing left (this stops, or tries to stop the Early extension)

 

Now release... just RELEASE,  at that point when left arm is parallel my right arm is under the left,  compared to before the release was the right arm was already OVER the left arm, since I had to move the right arm/elbow out and release the club early rolling my right hand over (to square the face)

 

 

All the "stuff" I have learned, watched, read, ALL are finally starting to make sense. The problem is when you learn 1 part of the whole swing, it part adds to the next move.

 

Stuff that I learned, but did it independently and caused way more issues. 

 

1) Lag - adding lag,  Physically most of us cant get lag without cupping our left wrist.  This goes against the bowing of the wrist.  You can still cup, at the top but you then have to really bow on the down swing.

2) Shaft lean, I need to deloft, I have to pull (left arm) or push (right arm) and get the shaft ahead of impact. Without left wrist bow, face angle is open or even way open to target line.

3) Swing with your right arm, like you are throwing ball.  Well yes, you drop your right elbow in (When you throw a bowl).  But you need to TURN the body upside down.  I kept thinking like a side arm throw or skipping a stone, but the feel was still wrong,  Actually its more like bowling, with your right elbow bent. the right hand is rotated downwards. When you "throw the ball, your right wrist cups and holds all the way to release.

4) Early Extension,  pulling the left hip away, or over rotating etc... but on chair,  No matter how much I move the body, if the Face is NOT square at impact,  the body compensates to square the face.  ALL the EE moves would NEVER work if at the point of my downswing, my face is always open to target line period.  If I did the left hip pull away, with the face open I would block it or dead slice it, Nothing would be in sync.

 

 

 

Wheewwwww...... What do you all think of my novel?  Is this an Ah ha moment, or is this a CRITICAL move.  This is not a DJ or John Rahm or Berger exaggeration, BUT the fact is you need to bow the left wrist to get the body to respond that the club face is square to target NOT open?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ghostwedge]

Does this come in a paperback version ? 🙄

[Nard_S]

In a rambling kind of way you are describing a re-orientation of how you see your own swing. That view was inspired  by the motorcycle move. The MM in and of itself is not all that powerful, but in concert with other key scripts, it is. Swinging down hill, shallow early, steepen late are the opposite of what you or guys like me have normally done. The MM move is part of all that altered prism. It's part of the puzzle that makes it all work even though it contradicts our instincts, so it's a bit alienating and takes reps to congeal. I found it be all encompassing, change one thing you have to changed everything but reality is,  it takes a long time to match the parts. But to compartmentalize it, the MM is a way to alter how the golf shaft relates to the arm triangle. It's a way to lay it lower and get it more inline with trail forearm, it's a a way to flatten it to the horizon. It's one part of several things that get you to  flip the script, to stop doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. At least that's how I see it.

[LeftDaddy]

Virtually everything you describe matches up with a lot of instruction today. Tuck trail elbow in, get it in front of you, face square to even a little shut at p6, shallow shaft, rotate hard through ball holding arms back, only release angles at last second, etc. 

 

So if the motorcycle move helps you with all of that, then there would seem to be no reason not to keep it going and/or fully integrate it into your swing. I personally have never really gotten much traction out of the motorcycle move itself, but I have worked hard and started having some success with the shallowing, rotating moves described above. 

[DShepley]

SO...I lost track and didn't read all the way to the end.  Here are my two cents, (not and instructor, just an avid reader of swing theory).

 

1.  Square the face to the path at the top of the swing and your body will react by, dropping the arms down, (hands in, club face out),  and rotating more through impact.

2. Square the face to the path at the bottom and your body will react by pulling the lead are towards the ball, stalling rotation so the club face can catch up and your arms will swing past your body with less body rotation and some early extension through impact.

 

I think it's pretty cool how our brain can react to the orientation of the club face if we let it.  To be fair, both ways above can be effective.  I think I've read enough on here to comfortably say that by improving a club / club face that is out of position can have a big impact on how your body moves.  

[Zitlow]

@Exactice808

Sounds like you're overthinking. Instead of looking at the golf swing as a myriad of piece parts look at it from a conceptual viewpoint.

 

Try wrapping your brain around how a trebuchet would operate using a bungee cord instead of a weight. Now picture the golf swing as an upside down bungee cord trebuchet.

 

The bungee cord represents muscles. Learning how to use the joints and adjacent bones to work the muscles is the key. 

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

@Exactice808

Sounds like you're overthinking. Instead of looking at the golf swing as a myriad of piece parts look at it from a conceptual viewpoint.

 

Try wrapping your brain around how a trebuchet would operate using a bungee cord instead of a weight. Now picture the golf swing as an upside down bungee cord trebuchet.

 

The bungee cord represents muscles. Learning how to use the joints and adjacent bones to work the muscles is the key. 

I do not entirely disagree but I have found that being to "conceptual" has the down side of ignoring basic geometry and basic linear movements that distinguish the very capable from that not so. Pro level swings have an orientation that is completely different, so nuts and bolts analysis of it is a good thing.

[rondo01]

23 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

1) Lag - adding lag,  Physically most of us cant get lag without cupping our left wrist.  This goes against the bowing of the wrist.  You can still cup, at the top but you then have to really bow on the down swing.

 

3) Swing with your right arm, like you are throwing ball.  Well yes, you drop your right elbow in (When you throw a bowl).  But you need to TURN the body upside down.  I kept thinking like a side arm throw or skipping a stone, but the feel was still wrong,  Actually its more like bowling, with your right elbow bent. the right hand is rotated downwards. When you "throw the ball, your right wrist cups and holds all the way to release.

 

aaaanndddd you lost me. 

[Zitlow]

58 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

I do not entirely disagree but I have found that being to "conceptual" has the down side of ignoring basic geometry and basic linear movements that distinguish the very capable from that not so. Pro level swings have an orientation that is completely different, so nuts and bolts analysis of it is a good thing.

 

I agree, my last statement about learning out to use the joints and adjacent bones to work the muscles is the key. 

 

An uncoordinated series of piece parts that create slack in the swing won't cut the mustard. The idea is to use muscular energy not muscular effort. 

 

 

[Exactice808]

6 hours ago, Nard_S said:

In a rambling kind of way you are describing a re-orientation of how you see your own swing. That view was inspired  by the motorcycle move. The MM in and of itself is not all that powerful, but in concert with other key scripts, it is. Swinging down hill, shallow early, steepen late are the opposite of what you or guys like me have normally done. The MM move is part of all that altered prism. It's part of the puzzle that makes it all work even though it contradicts our instincts, so it's a bit alienating and takes reps to congeal. I found it be all encompassing, change one thing you have to changed everything but reality is,  it takes a long time to match the parts. But to compartmentalize it, the MM is a way to alter how the golf shaft relates to the arm triangle. It's a way to lay it lower and get it more inline with trail forearm, it's a a way to flatten it to the horizon. It's one part of several things that get you to  flip the script, to stop doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. At least that's how I see it.

This is what I am "starting" to understand.

 

Its one move that affects the next movement.   What I was finding was working backwards, from Impact/ball flight to the "beautiful" swing.  Was making things worse.

 

First Trying to address, Shaft lean,  Then it swing speed, through means of hip rotation. The list goes on and on, Trying to do one thing at a time.

 

Rather addressing the "Sequence" of order to which properly sequences the next..... It seems I was trying to fix Step 37,  when I didnt even have step 3 down.  Does that make sense? 

[Exactice808]

6 hours ago, LeftDaddy said:

Virtually everything you describe matches up with a lot of instruction today. Tuck trail elbow in, get it in front of you, face square to even a little shut at p6, shallow shaft, rotate hard through ball holding arms back, only release angles at last second, etc. 

 

So if the motorcycle move helps you with all of that, then there would seem to be no reason not to keep it going and/or fully integrate it into your swing. I personally have never really gotten much traction out of the motorcycle move itself, but I have worked hard and started having some success with the shallowing, rotating moves described above. 

So if I might ask.... As the MM is not the holy grail per say, Exactly like you mentioned it seems to be putting in motion the sequence to the current instruction.  Meaning all the crap I have been doing now, was basically wrong, (out of order)

 

This seemingly got me back in order.  

 

So my question to you is, why does it/or did not get you tangible results?  Do you sequence different? 

[Exactice808]

6 hours ago, DShepley said:

SO...I lost track and didn't read all the way to the end.  Here are my two cents, (not and instructor, just an avid reader of swing theory).

 

1.  Square the face to the path at the top of the swing and your body will react by, dropping the arms down, (hands in, club face out),  and rotating more through impact.

2. Square the face to the path at the bottom and your body will react by pulling the lead are towards the ball, stalling rotation so the club face can catch up and your arms will swing past your body with less body rotation and some early extension through impact.

 

I think it's pretty cool how our brain can react to the orientation of the club face if we let it.  To be fair, both ways above can be effective.  I think I've read enough on here to comfortably say that by improving a club / club face that is out of position can have a big impact on how your body moves.  

Sorry I knew it was a novel.  Did try to warn it in the title LOL

 

 

BUT you seem to grasp my basis of thought!

 

Many TIMES I was trying to address face angle at impact,  Rather than the fact my face angle was messed up after the take away.  I need to work on the swing well before impact?

 

 

What I hope to convey, is my guilt and acceptance that I was trying to work on the "END" result rather than the proper sequence to get to the end result? If that makes sense.

 

Anyways,  IT seems the triggering the MM, for me seems to get the rest of the body in better sync.  I dont know... this is an "Ah ha" moment I have a lot of these..... so I am not holding my breath. The only reason I am posting though is that the cause and effect....seemed to address other things NOT just the one thing I was targeting or even the INITIAL thing I was targeting. 

[Exactice808]

5 hours ago, Zitlow said:

@Exactice808

Sounds like you're overthinking. Instead of looking at the golf swing as a myriad of piece parts look at it from a conceptual viewpoint.

 

Try wrapping your brain around how a trebuchet would operate using a bungee cord instead of a weight. Now picture the golf swing as an upside down bungee cord trebuchet.

 

The bungee cord represents muscles. Learning how to use the joints and adjacent bones to work the muscles is the key. 

To be 100% honest you are right.... the little birdie though in the back enjoys this part of the game more than the actual game sometimes.  

Anyway.... I guess my brain gets into the way and I just cant keep it simple (you probably can tell just by my post LOL)  With that no matter how natural I think I am swinging, I question it and "artificially" want to change something.  Or at the least understand why it does what it does......

 

[Exactice808]

3 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

I agree, my last statement about learning out to use the joints and adjacent bones to work the muscles is the key. 

 

An uncoordinated series of piece parts that create slack in the swing won't cut the mustard. The idea is to use muscular energy not muscular effort. 

 

 

If I might caveat,  the "idea" is to be "efficient" by using muscular energy, rather than muscular effort?

 

I think that again hampers on my issue.  I try to "add" the effort without realizing the already provided efficiencies? 

[Nard_S]

15 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

Rather addressing the "Sequence" of order to which properly sequences the next..... It seems I was trying to fix Step 37,  when I didnt even have step 3 down.  Does that make sense? 

Yeah it does. For that reason it's little wonder that most golf instruction starts at setup and ends at top of swing. And that's the easy part.

 

So when one is at top of swing, the club shaft is pretty much above the knuckle line of hands. When one is at P6 the shaft ideally should be below it. The grip rotation, the MM, helps in getting to that, but it might get you maybe 1/2 way. But if you get there, then it changes the meaning of a lot of other things before & after. The fact that most all Pro's possess significant wrist bow in lead hand validates it's importance.

[Exactice808]

Just now, Nard_S said:

Yeah it does. For that reason it's little wonder that most golf instruction starts at setup and ends at top of swing. And that's the easy part.

 

So when one is at top of swing, the club shaft is pretty much above the knuckle line of hands. When one is at P6 the shaft ideally should be below it. The grip rotation, the MM, helps in getting to that, but it might get you maybe 1/2 way. But if you get there, then it changes the meaning of a lot of other things before & after. The fact that most all Pro's possess significant wrist bow in lead hand validates it's importance.

Sooooooo this goes into Huge contradictions.

 

1) Dont do the DJ, or the DJ is not for many.....I watch the TUBE and the evaluation of his swing,  But many times its dont replicate it. Yet.... Its  seems to be a...(lack of a better terminology) an essential move for higher level players?  Or am I totally taking that out of context.

 

2)  The Bowing while maybe not at P4 (like DJ) , but like you said at P6 (adding the bow in the downswing)... shaft parallel,  your elbow is closer to your body.  Thus the right elbow is still bent and not fully extended,  etc etc as I mentioned.

 

I guess,  Its so hard to sift through the sea of information as one block of instruction that targets a certain facet form P1 to P8 YET, if you dont have P2 down.... anything you add to P4, P5 is basically moot and a "compensation" that works for a little but wreaks havoc down the road..

 

UGHHHH this game is frustrating LOL

[Nard_S]

2 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

Sooooooo this goes into Huge contradictions.

 

1) Dont do the DJ, or the DJ is not for many.....I watch the TUBE and the evaluation of his swing,  But many times its dont replicate it. Yet.... Its  seems to be a...(lack of a better terminology) an essential move for higher level players?  Or am I totally taking that out of context.

 

2)  The Bowing while maybe not at P4 (like DJ) , but like you said at P6 (adding the bow in the downswing)... shaft parallel,  your elbow is closer to your body.  Thus the right elbow is still bent and not fully extended,  etc etc as I mentioned.

 

I guess,  Its so hard to sift through the sea of information as one block of instruction that targets a certain facet form P1 to P8 YET, if you dont have P2 down.... anything you add to P4, P5 is basically moot and a "compensation" that works for a little but wreaks havoc down the road..

 

UGHHHH this game is frustrating LOL

There is nuance and range with the bowing. There is not one set formula because there's other factors too. But in general high level swings have more wrist crowning at impact. How you get there may vary but most do rotate grip P4 on. DJ is somewhat unique. Everybody focuses on his wrist set but the guy has a crazy good athletic move to his swing. 

[Exactice808]

4 hours ago, rondo01 said:

 

aaaanndddd you lost me. 

Are you being sarcastic/rhetoric? or serious? (respectfully asking)

 

Reason is, that the frustration I share, I hope someone even if its 1 person learns from my mistake.

 

To respond in jest,  highlighting what you captured.  Were Items I "watched" or tried to learn independently.

 

Take lag for example,  Monte says it all the time,  No need to "add" lag, lag is a byproduct of proper sequence.

 

Well I disregarded the last part (proper sequence)

I intentionally "add lag" and all hell breaks lose. Trying to get more lag at the top I dont have any further flexibility with a flat or bowed wrist, the only way to get more lag at the top is to cup the wrist... this goes WAY opposite of the MM, which you are trying to bow the wrist moving to the down swing.

 

 

Another mistake I made trying to get the "right elbow" bent at impact rather than the arms extended at impact. I am intentionally elbowing my stomach on the down swing... all during this time, the face of the club is WIDE open, I just dont have time to close the face, other than rolling the right arm over the left to close the face or FLIP at the ball to get the club head square..... Doing one thing but not understanding, that something else had to happen WELL before the action I thought was a fix.

 

 

Make sense are you still lost? 

[dsmil]

I think moving towards flexion (bowing) with the lead wrist in transition is a good move unless you already have grip/wrist conditions that promote an already closed face. I used to have a strong grip and slightly bowed wrist at the top, so bowing it even more in transition was not possible for me and would close the face too much, requiring me to stall out at the bottom.  I have now weakened my grip to a neutral grip and am able to move towards flexion in transition without the face getting too closed. I now feel more shallow coming into the ball and feel Iike I can rotate more.

 

For beginner golfers, I wonder if teachers promote closing the face more with grip and wrist conditions at the top rather than a bowing move in transition. It doesn’t seem like the easiest thing to pick up for a less-skilled golfer.

[LeftDaddy]

4 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

So if I might ask.... As the MM is not the holy grail per say, Exactly like you mentioned it seems to be putting in motion the sequence to the current instruction.  Meaning all the crap I have been doing now, was basically wrong, (out of order)

 

This seemingly got me back in order.  

 

So my question to you is, why does it/or did not get you tangible results?  Do you sequence different? 

I have been working to fix so many things over the last several years, and I’m starting to have some success with it. I’m sorta going one at time, though it doesn’t often work quite that way. But I’m trying to correct things and somewhat check them off the list. So with that in mind, I’ve found that I just can’t give myself too many “manipulations” to consider in the middle of the swing, or I’ll never ingrain them. The motorcycle move fits into that “just one too many manipulations” category. I can do it here and there and get some good results, but it doesn’t so much last, and it distracts me from other changes I’m making. And finally, I’m categorizing fixes as best I can for good effect. So if I can fix something without a mid-swing manipulation, I’ll do that. Therefore, I’m attempting to keep my face square through a better grip and better backswing. 
 

Now, how have I fixed this sequencing you ask?  Not easily, that’s for sure, but I’ve made progress and had a breakthrough 2 months ago that has stuck so far. But I’ve mostly done it through setup fixes, and backswing fixes that correct my balance and allow me to pivot properly. And finally, in transition, I have worked super hard to shallow the shaft by doing a lot of Alex Noren drills. I incorporated basically an Alex Noren and Matthew Wolff move into my pre-shot routine to get the feels right. So then I step into the ball, get setup properly, focus on one thought going back, and rehearse that, and then swing. I’ve logged 6 rounds since this “breakthrough” and my handicap has dropped almost 3 points all while putting as poorly as I ever have and semi-losing my short game. Those are now on the “fix one at a time” list!

Edited February 11, 2021 by LeftDaddy

[ChipStrokes]

[Exactice808]

14 hours ago, LeftDaddy said:

I have been working to fix so many things over the last several years, and I’m starting to have some success with it. I’m sorta going one at time, though it doesn’t often work quite that way. But I’m trying to correct things and somewhat check them off the list. So with that in mind, I’ve found that I just can’t give myself too many “manipulations” to consider in the middle of the swing, or I’ll never ingrain them. The motorcycle move fits into that “just one too many manipulations” category. I can do it here and there and get some good results, but it doesn’t so much last, and it distracts me from other changes I’m making. And finally, I’m categorizing fixes as best I can for good effect. So if I can fix something without a mid-swing manipulation, I’ll do that. Therefore, I’m attempting to keep my face square through a better grip and better backswing. 
 

Now, how have I fixed this sequencing you ask?  Not easily, that’s for sure, but I’ve made progress and had a breakthrough 2 months ago that has stuck so far. But I’ve mostly done it through setup fixes, and backswing fixes that correct my balance and allow me to pivot properly. And finally, in transition, I have worked super hard to shallow the shaft by doing a lot of Alex Noren drills. I incorporated basically an Alex Noren and Matthew Wolff move into my pre-shot routine to get the feels right. So then I step into the ball, get setup properly, focus on one thought going back, and rehearse that, and then swing. I’ve logged 6 rounds since this “breakthrough” and my handicap has dropped almost 3 points all while putting as poorly as I ever have and semi-losing my short game. Those are now on the “fix one at a time” list!

Thank you!  I truly appreciate you taking the time to respond.  Again this is something I enjoy more than the game at times. Especially when the game gets rough.  This basically helps me offload the unnecessary stress.

 

I fell in the trap thinking that there is a one all fix all.   But there are "basics" that need to be applied.  YET....each swing is different so your point of view is greatly appreciated.

 

GL on your Journey!

[Exactice808]

12 hours ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

You are worried about exactly the wrong things.  Probably everything you mention pertains to the effects of a good swing rather than the cause, to the arms and hands instead of the legs, hips, and torso.

 

There have been first class champion golfers who do almost everything possible differently their from each other with the arms and hands (and indeed, the club face right until the moment of impact).  I can’t think of one who did not use his large muscles in essentially the same way.  In may be impossible.

 

The “aha” moment you need to have is that you swing with the large muscles of your body.  The key move is commonly called the transition and involves the feeling of the club finishing the backswing to the top while the body is already in the motion of the downswing, described as moving in two directions at once.

 

You can define out from the internet, for example from AMG, how the pros do it, which is a good way to understand what you are trying to do, which is a good thing.

 

It is not however a way to learn how to do it.  To learn to do it requires repeated efforts to do it, with feedback, unless you have a really good coach.  Really good.  You body will teach itself with feedback. It may never teach itself without feedback.  How could it?  This is basic neurobiology.  The most practical but far from convenient, easy, or cheap source of feedback for most people is to try to hit ball as hard as you can, without regard to direction, curvature, or what not, with the goal of learning how your body (not someone else’s) feels when performing a good transition resulting in a high swing speed.  In practice.  Speed is the sine qua non of a good swing.  

 

Once your body has learned to hit the ball fast, i.e. with a good transition, the rest will either result automatically (i.e., the club face will close with the hands ahead of the ball at impact, the plane will shallow, there will be lag...the left wrist may even bow) or fall into place shortly.  The will always be room for refinement and improvement, of course.

 

The transition to be perhaps too trite is the engine of the car.  Sure you need wheels, but without the engine you just don’t have a car.

 

Or to be perhaps too erudite recall the distinction Thomas made between the essential and the accidental.  You seem to be ignoring the essential to pursue the accidental.

Thank you! This edifies my point..... as I mentioned in a prior post. I see 1 part of the swing I want to fix, I look up that part. I learn about that part.  I try to "Target" and fix that part. NOT accepting that something prior is causing me to move in the "improper" way.

 

I 100% accept exactly what you post.  So this is why, the MM, seems a move early in the move,  Right after the take away, I have NOT even tried to address anything further up to this point.  I gave up LOL!.

 

 

Anyways yes I am going way back...right at "transition" this is when I start the MM...... I am curious to see the live effects and how long it last. Or if OTHER things creep in, (good or bad).