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Stance Relief - Casual water


2bGood

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Can you answer these, with out looking it up? 🤔 I have to admit I could not answer all of them without some fast research, but some I found easy to know the answer.

 

Ball is near a penalty area - your stance is in casual water in the PA, ball is outside the PA and not in casual water - Do you get free relief? Where?

 

Ball is near OB - your stance is in casual water OB but the ball is inbounds not in casual water - Do you get free relief? Where?

 

Ball is near a Bunker - your stance is in casual water in the bunker, ball is outside the bunker and not in casual water - Do you get free relief? Where?

 

Ball is in the Bunker and not in casual water- your stance is  outside the bunker in casual water - Do you get free relief? Where?

 

Ball is on the green - your stance is in casual water off the green - Do you get free relief? Where?

 

 

Edited by 2bGood
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I'll try, see below;

 

Ball is near a penalty area - your stance is in casual water in the PA, ball is outside the PA and not in casual water - Do you get free relief? Where?  Yes, in general area.

 

Ball is near a OB - your stance is in casual water OB but the ball is inbounds not in casual water - Do you get free relief? Where?  No, the temporary water is not on the course.

 

Ball is near a Bunker - your stance is in casual water in the bunker, ball is outside the bunker and not in casual water - Do you get free relief? Where?  Yes, in general area.

 

Ball is the Bunker and not in casual water- your stance is  outside the bunker in casual water - Do you get free relief? Where?  Yes, in the bunker.

 

Ball is on the green - your stance is in casual water in off the green - Do you get free relief? Where?  Yes, on the green.

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Temporary Water in PA - No relief, there's no TW in a PA.

 

OB - No relief

 

Stance in bunker - relief in the General Area

 

Ball in bunker - relief in bunker (or penalty relief outside)

 

Green - relief in Nearest Point of Complete Relief on the green or in the General Area.

 

 

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Swing DNA: 91/4/3/6/6
Woods: ST 180 or MP-650 - Irons: MP-H5 / MP-53 / MP-4, KBS Tour S - 50º: MP-T5 / 55º: FG Tour PMP  / 60º: RTX ZipCore - Mizuno Bettinardi BC-4

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If I were king, this one would change:

 

Ball is near OB - your stance is in casual water OB but the ball is inbounds not in casual water - Do you get free relief? Where?

 

The Rules happily provide relief anywhere on of off the course for loose impediments and movable obstructions. The weak excuse (not on the course) for not giving relief from abnormal conditions located out of bounds isn't convincing.

 

In sui's world, "Abnormal Course Conditions" would become "Abnormal Conditions" and another gotcha would be consigned to history.

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Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play competitive golf.

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Apologies for using the term casual water - It is of course called temporary water. Old habits die hard. 

 

OB is an easy one - no relief as rule 16 clearly spells out that an abnormal course condition can not be out of bounds.

 

I will leave the rest out there for a while as I am interested if everyone comes to the same conclusions I did. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Halebopp said:

Temporary Water in PA - No relief, there's no TW in a PA.

 

OB - No relief

 

Stance in bunker - relief in the General Area

 

Ball in bunker - relief in bunker (or penalty relief outside)

 

Green - relief in Nearest Point of Complete Relief on the green or in the General Area.

 

 

Agree with the green - relief could be off the green.

Uncertain about temporary water in PA when ball is not in PA.  The definition of temporary water excludes water in a PA, but Rule 16.1b provides relief in the general area for temporary water "on the course".  Is this a contradiction between the Rule and definition?

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1 hour ago, Sawgrass said:

Fun questions, 2bGood.  (And nice job Halebopp, I think!)

 

Cheers, although I got another essential but pretty basic problem hanging over my head right now.

 

When we take relief from an Abnormal Course Condition, there's no guarantee we can play the ball from anywhere in the relief area. But when taking relief from Temporary Water in a bunker, the Nearest Point of Complete Relief is practically always determined so that even the player's stance stays inside the bunker (at least here in this Fine land). But, there's no support for such a move. There's no requirement for the stance to be in the same area of the course as the Reference Point or ball.

I feel pretty confident in saying I haven't had to deal with the situation as a rules official (plenty of incidents with whole bunkers marked as GUR though), but I'm certain there have been times when I should've been standing outside of the bunker, "to the side of" the Temporary Water with the ball in the bunker as opposed to dropping "behind" the TW where there's room even for my stance to be inside the bunker.

 

Am I missing something? I am feeling pretty stupid right now. :einstein::classic_laugh:

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Swing DNA: 91/4/3/6/6
Woods: ST 180 or MP-650 - Irons: MP-H5 / MP-53 / MP-4, KBS Tour S - 50º: MP-T5 / 55º: FG Tour PMP  / 60º: RTX ZipCore - Mizuno Bettinardi BC-4

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15 minutes ago, rogolf said:

 

Uncertain about temporary water in PA when ball is not in PA.  The definition of temporary water excludes water in a PA, but Rule 16.1b provides relief in the general area for temporary water "on the course".  Is this a contradiction between the Rule and definition?

No contradiction- As stated in the definition above - water in a penalty area does not satisfy the definition of Temporary Water.

 

Dmecca 2

32 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

Maybe in the past, when it was considered a hazard, there would be no relief, but now that it's not, I agree with relief inside the bunker. 

Sorry Dmecca 2

  Even pre 2019 there was always relief.

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4 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

Cheers, although I got another essential but pretty basic problem hanging over my head right now.

 

When we take relief from an Abnormal Course Condition, there's no guarantee we can play the ball from anywhere in the relief area. But when taking relief from Temporary Water in a bunker, the Nearest Point of Complete Relief is practically always determined so that even the player's stance stays inside the bunker (at least here in this Fine land). But, there's no support for such a move. There's no requirement for the stance to be in the same area of the course as the Reference Point or ball.

I feel pretty confident in saying I haven't had to deal with the situation as a rules official (plenty of incidents with whole bunkers marked as GUR though), but I'm certain there have been times when I should've been standing outside of the bunker, "to the side of" the Temporary Water with the ball in the bunker as opposed to dropping "behind" the TW where there's room even for my stance to be inside the bunker.

 

Am I missing something? I am feeling pretty stupid right now. :einstein::classic_laugh:

 

If the nearest point of complete relief involves standing outside the bunker which means standing in a nasty position - so be it☹️☹️

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34 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Agree with the green - relief could be off the green.

Uncertain about temporary water in PA when ball is not in PA.  The definition of temporary water excludes water in a PA, but Rule 16.1b provides relief in the general area for temporary water "on the course".  Is this a contradiction between the Rule and definition?

 

You do make a fair point and that's definitely something the RBs should clarify or change for 2023 but unless proven otherwise, I'd base my ruling on the definition of temporary water. The concept of having temporary water in a penalty area simply sounds outlandish to me.

Swing DNA: 91/4/3/6/6
Woods: ST 180 or MP-650 - Irons: MP-H5 / MP-53 / MP-4, KBS Tour S - 50º: MP-T5 / 55º: FG Tour PMP  / 60º: RTX ZipCore - Mizuno Bettinardi BC-4

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1 hour ago, limegreengent said:

 

If the nearest point of complete relief involves standing outside the bunker which means standing in a nasty position - so be it☹️☹️

 

Yep, monkey see, monkey do and monkey doesn't even think about it for years despite spending quite a bit of time studying the rules and officiating. 😄 

Swing DNA: 91/4/3/6/6
Woods: ST 180 or MP-650 - Irons: MP-H5 / MP-53 / MP-4, KBS Tour S - 50º: MP-T5 / 55º: FG Tour PMP  / 60º: RTX ZipCore - Mizuno Bettinardi BC-4

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5 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

Yep, monkey see, monkey do and monkey doesn't even think about it for years despite spending quite a bit of time studying the rules and officiating. 😄 

Nothing surprising here. Our behaviour as golfers and as rules officials/rules students accumulate different kinds of awareness over time. But there is a depth of rich detail in the Official Guide that means it is highly unlikely we ever get to have it all at our fingertips.

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It sounds like 'we' 😄 got them all eventually. One of these circumstances came to me recently and it got me thinking about the other unique situations that might take a few extra brain cells to figure out.

 

Edited by 2bGood
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On 2/11/2021 at 2:52 AM, 2bGood said:

OB is an easy one - no relief as rule 16 clearly spells out that an abnormal course condition can not be out of bounds.

 

I'm sure you are alert to this but another reader may not be - an abnormal course condition can be out of bounds, but relief is not available for interference with that ACC.

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