Adding Clubs: Legal? Clever? Outside of the spirit of the rule?

[Mookieb10]

I’m sure I’m not the first deviant to think of this... but, let’s just go over this, I’ll keep the first example a reasonable example in my life and the second example is the absolute extreme. 
 

Ex 1: The 10th hole at my club is a reachable Par 5. Second shot it’s somewhere between a four metal to a 21* hybrid. It’s the first shot of the round that will require either club. I can legally play 13 clubs up until that 2nd shot on the 10th hole, at which point I believe I can legally introduce that 14th club based upon which club is needed. Correct?
 

Now taken to the extreme, I’m in the club championship final and I have my friend in a nearby cart carrying 50 of my clubs. Everything degree from a 64*, to a 2 wood, to a left handed club. I only start with a driver in my bag and introduce clubs as needed. At my home course, I’d actually believe this to be beneficial, with a par of 70 at 6,700 yards and no par 5’s on the front, I’m usually quite comfortable only using Driver, Utility iron, 7i, 8i, 9i, 60*, putter. The back is a much more varied story. A short par 5, a long par 5, a 5 converted to a long 4 which plays into the fan, a large uphill approach, etc.  
 

So, the questions...

1) Is my example still legal on the PGA Tour? 
2) Are my actions within the spirit of the rules?

3) would this give me an advantage or just introduce a variable of figuring which clubs to introduce and when? 

 

 

[rogolf]

Read this Interpretation for your answer:

 

4.1b(1)/3 – Clubs Carried for Player Count Towards the 14-Club Limit

The 14-club limit applies to any clubs being carried by the player, his or her caddie, or any other person he or she asks to carry clubs.

For example, if a player begins the round with 10 clubs and asks another person to walk along with the group and carry 8 additional clubs from which the player intends to add to his or her bag during the round, the player is considered to have started the round with more than 14 clubs.

[Sawgrass]

So, scenario one is legal and two is not. Additional notes:

 

Scenario one provides a .23 stroke advantage, but the stress of accessing the additional club without unreasonable delay costs you .31 stroke, so it nets out terribly. 

 

Scenario iOS two has the person carrying your 50 clubs grow to hate you, and by the fifth hole might come to agree with you regarding your description of yourself as a deviant.

 

(BTW, my analysis has a .1 stroke margin of error, so proceed with caution.)

[Shilgy]

To be clear....scenario one is not legal. It would be the equivalent of starting the round with 15 clubs.

 

Correct?

[Sawgrass]

32 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

To be clear....scenario one is not legal. It would be the equivalent of starting the round with 15 clubs.

 

Correct?

From 4.1b:

 

If the player starts a round with fewer than 14 clubs, he or she may add clubs during the round up to the 14-club (see Rule 4.1b(4) for restrictions in doing this).

 

[ArtMBgolf]

The way the rule is written, it sounds like you could quickly run the the car to 
add a 14th club at the turn for #10.     

[Socrates]

9 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

From 4.1b:

 

If the player starts a round with fewer than 14 clubs, he or she may add clubs during the round up to the 14-club (see Rule 4.1b(4) for restrictions in doing this).

 

It is unclear in scenario 1, how many clubs the friend is carrying.  It likely can be assumed that he is carrying more than one otherwise there would be no point to the exercise.

[Sawgrass]

1 minute ago, Socrates said:

It is unclear in scenario 1, how many clubs the friend is carrying.  It likely can be assumed that he is carrying more than one otherwise there would be no point to the exercise.

I don’t believe the OP had a friend involved in scenario one.  Probably clubs stored in the clubhouse or car, reachable quickly on hole 10.

[Socrates]

2 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

I don’t believe the OP had a friend involved in scenario one.  Probably clubs stored in the clubhouse or car, reachable quickly on hole 10.

You are correct.  I would ding him for Undue Delay though.

[sui generis]

8 hours ago, Socrates said:

You are correct.  I would ding him for Undue Delay though.

 

Would you also if the player stopped to use the bathroom or to grab a snack?

[Shilgy]

9 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

From 4.1b:

 

If the player starts a round with fewer than 14 clubs, he or she may add clubs during the round up to the 14-club (see Rule 4.1b(4) for restrictions in doing this).

 

I read the two scenarios intertwined a bit. The friend was introduced in scenario two with 50 clubs but he did, in the first sentence of scenario two, writes(paraphrased)  “taken to the extreme the friend has 50 clubs”. I inferred the same friend carried two in scenario one.

[Shilgy]

54 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Would you also if the player stopped to use the bathroom or to grab a snack?

No, but in scenario one he is well down the fairway and seeing which club he needs to hit with his second shot on #10.  Unless the course parking lot runs adjacent to the hole running back for the needed club would likely cause undue delay.

[Socrates]

50 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Would you also if the player stopped to use the bathroom or to grab a snack?

You're injecting a different scenario into the situation. 

 

He's in the middle of the 10th fairway getting ready to play his 2nd shot and he's going to go the parking lot or bag room to go get the club he wants to use.  Unless he has a Star Trek Teleporter he is going to take several minutes going back and forth.  Using 5.6a/1 I would think that returning to where ever to get another club would be no different than going back to the tee or putting green to retrieve a forgotten club.  One Stroke Penalty.

 

5.6a/1 – Examples of Delays That Are Considered Reasonable or Unreasonable

Unreasonable delays in the context of Rule 5.6a are delays caused by a player’s actions that are within the player’s control and affect other players or delay the competition. Brief delays that are a result of normal events that happen during a round or are outside the player’s control are generally treated as “reasonable”.

Determining which actions are reasonable or unreasonable depends on all the circumstances, including whether the player is waiting for other players in the group or the group ahead.

Examples of actions that are likely to be treated as reasonable are:

• Briefly stopping by the clubhouse or half-way house to get food or drink.

• Taking time to consult with others in the playing group to decide whether to play out the hole when there is a normal suspension by the Committee (Rule 5.7b(2)).

Examples of actions that, if causing more than a brief delay in play, are likely to be treated as unreasonable delay are:

• Returning to the teeing area from the putting green to retrieve a lost club.

• Continuing to search for a lost ball for several minutes after the allowed three-minute search time has expired.

• Stopping by the clubhouse or half-way house to get food or drink for more than a few minutes if the Committee has not allowed for it.

 

 

 

[Sawgrass]

2 hours ago, Socrates said:

You're injecting a different scenario into the situation. 

 

He's in the middle of the 10th fairway getting ready to play his 2nd shot and he's going to go the parking lot or bag room to go get the club he wants to use.  Unless he has a Star Trek Teleporter he is going to take several minutes going back and forth.  Using 5.6a/1 I would think that returning to where ever to get another club would be no different than going back to the tee or putting green to retrieve a forgotten club.  One Stroke Penalty.

 

5.6a/1 – Examples of Delays That Are Considered Reasonable or Unreasonable

Unreasonable delays in the context of Rule 5.6a are delays caused by a player’s actions that are within the player’s control and affect other players or delay the competition. Brief delays that are a result of normal events that happen during a round or are outside the player’s control are generally treated as “reasonable”.

Determining which actions are reasonable or unreasonable depends on all the circumstances, including whether the player is waiting for other players in the group or the group ahead.

Examples of actions that are likely to be treated as reasonable are:

• Briefly stopping by the clubhouse or half-way house to get food or drink.

• Taking time to consult with others in the playing group to decide whether to play out the hole when there is a normal suspension by the Committee (Rule 5.7b(2)).

Examples of actions that, if causing more than a brief delay in play, are likely to be treated as unreasonable delay are:

• Returning to the teeing area from the putting green to retrieve a lost club.

• Continuing to search for a lost ball for several minutes after the allowed three-minute search time has expired.

• Stopping by the clubhouse or half-way house to get food or drink for more than a few minutes if the Committee has not allowed for it.

 

 

 

We know the rules disallow having extra clubs carried for you, and we know that the rules allow you to somehow access additional clubs to get to a total of 14.  
 

Somehow in there exists permission to do this with reasonable dispatch, but doing so in a more time-consuming way than a friend simply tossing you a club. I fear your dislike of the option is making you too aggressive in your desire to penalize the player.

[wobgon]

I tend to carry two putters as putting is the worse part of my game (I know, that is probably because i carry two putters) but anyhow, i was thinking one day, Why not just carry 13 clubs for the first nine and at the turn, add a putter if i am putting bad, but if i am putting ok and hitting my driver bad, for example, leave the putter in my car and add a driver.....

Not something i could see myself doing since it doesn't really seem right, but seems to be an easy rule for folks to take advantage of.

[Socrates]

3 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

We know the rules disallow having extra clubs carried for you, and we know that the rules allow you to somehow access additional clubs to get to a total of 14.  
 

Somehow in there exists permission to do this with reasonable dispatch, but doing so in a more time-consuming way than a friend simply tossing you a club. I fear your dislike of the option is making you too aggressive in your desire to penalize the player.

Yes, I think he is attempting to do something that is not within the spirit of the Rules and under the scenarios presented, illegal.  His intent is to twist the Rules to suit his needs.  It is nowhere close to forgetting a club or breaking a club and having it replaced by someone bringing out a club.  I don't know how anyone could be conflicted with assessing the penalties under both his scenarios if he did either of them.

 

The answer to his first 2 questions are 1) not legal and 2) not within the spirit of the Rules.  Number 3) is moot.

[Augster]

Who said the middle of the 10th fairway? At my course, and a few others I know of around here, the parking lot is on the left side of the 10th hole. He could hit the drive on 10, see it land and know which club he needed at that point and pit stop at his car on the way to his ball. Or if he’s in a cart, race up, look at the lie and yardage, drive back to his car and get his club, then get back to his ball all before the group ahead had moved away. 
 

It completely depends on the design of the course in relation to the parking lot. Plenty of guys in my club keep a cooler in their car to hit up as they play 10. No real delay to speak of. 
 

Scenario number 1 is totally plausible if the design/routing of the course makes getting to the car and back to playing without much delay. 
 

At my course, on 10, you can park your car less than 30 yards from your landing area if you want to. Closer if you want to take on OB. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Augster

[rogolf]

30 minutes ago, Augster said:

Who said the middle of the 10th fairway? At my course, and a few others I know of around here, the parking lot is on the left side of the 10th hole. He could hit the drive on 10, see it land and know which club he needed at that point and pit stop at his car on the way to his ball. Or if he’s in a cart, race up, look at the lie and yardage, drive back to his car and get his club, then get back to his ball all before the group ahead had moved away. 
 

It completely depends on the design of the course in relation to the parking lot. Plenty of guys in my club keep a cooler in their car to hit up as they play 10. No real delay to speak of. 
 

Scenario number 1 is totally plausible if the design/routing of the course makes getting to the car and back to playing without much delay. 
 

At my course, on 10, you can park your car less than 30 yards from your landing area if you want to. Closer if you want to take on OB. 

The Rule (4.1b94)) says that the player can add clubs (up to 14) but must not "unreasonably delay play" in doing so.  Obviously, circumstances alter cases when making any judgement on actions which "unreasonably delay play".

[jobin]

Did not the OP say his scenerios ?? will be happening on the PGA Tour?  So, can that group make any rule (Condition of Competition) they desire regarding leaving the course confines, or accessing items not carried by the caddy or provided by the course, like bottles of water?  Etc.

[rogolf]

14 minutes ago, jobin said:

Did not the OP say his scenerios ?? will be happening on the PGA Tour?  So, can that group make any rule (Condition of Competition) they desire regarding leaving the course confines, or accessing items not carried by the caddy or provided by the course, like bottles of water?  Etc.

The PGA Tour have made a commitment to follow the Rules of golf as published by the USGA and R&A.  Anything regarding what the caddie were to carry seems like serious overkill and foolhardy.

[nsxguy]

On 2/18/2021 at 4:48 PM, Socrates said:

Yes, I think he is attempting to do something that is not within the spirit of the Rules

 

How do you get there ?

[Socrates]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

How do you get there ?

He is trying to devise a method to circumvent the Rules which I feel violates Rule 1.2.  It's one thing to find yourself in a situation and using the Rules to your advantage and another to create a situation to find a loophole to use.  You many not agree, but my opinion is that he is being unethical in his intent.

 

1.2 Standards of Player Conduct a. Conduct Expected of All Players

All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

• Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, applying all penalties, and being honest in all aspects of play.

[Sawgrass]

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

He is trying to devise a method to circumvent the Rules which I feel violates Rule 1.2.  It's one thing to find yourself in a situation and using the Rules to your advantage and another to create a situation to find a loophole to use.  You many not agree, but my opinion is that he is being unethical in his intent.

 

1.2 Standards of Player Conduct a. Conduct Expected of All Players

All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

• Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, applying all penalties, and being honest in all aspects of play.

Yet he was following the rules, and there’s no dishonesty described. 

[davep043]

On 2/18/2021 at 4:48 PM, Socrates said:

It is nowhere close to forgetting a club or breaking a club and having it replaced by someone bringing out a club.

I really don't see anything in the rules about a "reason" for starting the round with fewer than 14 clubs, simply a blanket permission for adding clubs to get to the 14 club limit, with a couple of specific restrictions.:

Quote

If the player starts a round with fewer than 14 clubs, he or she may add clubs during the round up to the 14-club limit (see Rule 4.1b(4) for restrictions in doing this).

The player is making a choice to put himself at a potential disadvantage for 9 holes in order to obtain a (pretty small) advantage on one specific shot.  The Rules specifically allow him to add clubs.  

 

The discussion of the "spirit of the rules" reminds me of an old thread, in which one poster argued that taking relief under Rule 19 when it was possible to make a stroke at the ball was somehow against the "spirit of the rules".  To me, the spirit of the rules means that we are required to play in accordance with the rules, which includes taking advantage of the times when the rules offer potential advantages.

[rogolf]

IIRC, one of the proposals in the 2019 Rules modernization was that the player was limited to the number of clubs they began the round with.

And, I don't consider anyone playing with less than 14 clubs putting themselves at any disadvantage - maybe it's an advantage to leave out a club the player hits poorly.

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

On 2/18/2021 at 12:37 PM, Sawgrass said:

We know the rules disallow having extra clubs carried for you, and we know that the rules allow you to somehow access additional clubs to get to a total of 14.  
 

Somehow in there exists permission to do this with reasonable dispatch, but doing so in a more time-consuming way than a friend simply tossing you a club. I fear your dislike of the option is making you too aggressive in your desire to penalize the player.

I'm not an expert, and have taken a rules quiz/test most recently in 2002, so take this with a grain of salt:

I think the issue in this scenario arises because this hypothetical extra club is being procured while the ball is in play.  If the player were to swing by his car, his buddy's golf bag, or the bazaar stand that a random Golf WRX'er set up in the rough before teeing off, it would be okay.  But, since the player teed off, made an assessment, and then decided to add another club during the run of the hole, that's where the friction arises.

[nsxguy]

12 hours ago, Socrates said:

He is trying to devise a method to circumvent the Rules which I feel violates Rule 1.2.  It's one thing to find yourself in a situation and using the Rules to your advantage and another to create a situation to find a loophole to use.  You many not agree, but my opinion is that he is being unethical in his intent.

 

1.2 Standards of Player Conduct a. Conduct Expected of All Players

All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

• Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, applying all penalties, and being honest in all aspects of play.

 

You're quite correct. I do not agree.

 

You contradict yourself with your own post quoting the Rules themselves.

 

I fail to see how following the Rules, is circumventing the Rules

 

Or "not being honest" ?

[nsxguy]

56 minutes ago, HappyGilmoresBoots said:

I'm not an expert, and have taken a rules quiz/test most recently in 2002, so take this with a grain of salt:

I think the issue in this scenario arises because this hypothetical extra club is being procured while the ball is in play.  If the player were to swing by his car, his buddy's golf bag, or the bazaar stand that a random Golf WRX'er set up in the rough before teeing off, it would be okay.  But, since the player teed off, made an assessment, and then decided to add another club during the run of the hole, that's where the friction arises.

 

I guess I don't understand how you come to such a conclusion when the Rules themselves specifically describe the way a 14th club can be added DURING the round.

 

 

[Socrates]

13 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

You're quite correct. I do not agree.

 

You contradict yourself with your own post quoting the Rules themselves.

 

I fail to see how following the Rules, is circumventing the Rules

 

Or "not being honest" ?

Maybe I shouldn't have gone down the unethical road, so that likely was the wrong way to go.  But, baring the remote chance that the OP is playing at Augster's course, he will run afoul of the undue delay penalty.  We likely will never know as the OP has never returned to explain how he would determine how he will decide which club to use or how he would obtain it.

 

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

50 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I guess I don't understand how you come to such a conclusion when the Rules themselves specifically describe the way a 14th club can be added DURING the round.

 

 

Yes, but there's a lot of time during any given round where a ball isn't in play.  I'm certainly not counting strokes from the time I hole out to the next time I tee off.  The ball is in my pocket, my glove is off, I'm taking a swig of ice tea in the cart. What I'm getting at is that, even though it's allowed by the rules, I'm not going to run back to my car when I'm 3 strokes into a par 5 to grab my backup wedge out of my trunk...in order to maintain pace of play, I'm going to visit my car after I hole out, but before I tee up on the next hole.

 

Otherwise, why carry a bag at all?  Just leave your 14 clubs in the car and run back each time you need one.