Why do I always hear that Pros hate a left miss

[tthomasgolfer605]

7 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

Again you’re talking nonsense. Elite players who swing up will tend to hit it low on the face. People who swing down will tend to hit it high on the face. These things happen regardless of skill level. It’s how tour players swing -3 on a driver and have acceptable launch stats. They’re hitting it high on the face and using vertical gear effect to their advantage. 
 

the same thing happens horizontally. 

I showed you trackman data on a zeroed out path to face. Heel contact results in left to right spin. Toe contact results in right to left spin. Not one tour pro hits their irons high on the face even when teed up. Rory hits up on it a bit with the driver but the contact is dead center. Would you like a picture of that too? 

[tthomasgolfer605]

18 minutes ago, airjammer said:

At my the course I play most often the right miss is the most punished. I prefer to play a draw and any ball that doesn’t draw for me was never struck well so I despise the right miss. 

 

I’d be curious if the pros would prefer the right miss if the tour bunkers actually plugged like they should on iron shots?  It ridiculous how easy they make the bunkers especially for the pga tour. All balls hit into the bunkers shouldn’t roll to the bottom flat spot. 
 

 

The players would complain about that for sure. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

Here's Rory's impact swinging up on the driver 4.2 degrees. Low on the face? 

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Here's Rory's impact swinging up on the driver 4.2 degrees. Low on the face? 

Rory is the best driver of the ball on the planet, he is one of the very few who can hit up on it a lot, without losing face control and/or getting the low strike.  There is a reason why PGA tour average angle of attack is still down. Let's be real, you make like to make claims based on nothing other than your own opinions, you get challenged, then you say "in general", get challenged again, then try to use single data points and anecdotes to prove your "general" point. Statistics don't work that way,

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, airjammer said:

At my the course I play most often the right miss is the most punished. I prefer to play a draw and any ball that doesn’t draw for me was never struck well so I despise the right miss. 

 

I’d be curious if the pros would prefer the right miss if the tour bunkers actually plugged like they should on iron shots?  It ridiculous how easy they make the bunkers especially for the pga tour. All balls hit into the bunkers shouldn’t roll to the bottom flat spot. 
 

 

It's not just your course, that is the case at pretty much any moderate to hard course, because the short right miss is simply not a good one.  Why would a course designer set something up that rewards a miss common with hackers. That miss only really only works at flat munis

[b.mattay]

3 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

That's a good question. Pros with a fade bias tend to miss toward the heel which cuts down on distance a bit and makes it cut more. Miss left with a pull or over draw and it usually goes farther resulting in a much tougher shot. 

 

Logically, a push when trying to hit a draw also has that short right tendency, where the overcooked draw has a long-left tendency. A flushed hot pull when trying to hit a fade has a long left tendency and the overcooked fade has a short right tendency. In both cases, you get a similar shot pattern in terms of long left and short right, regardless of intended shot shape. 

 

If YOUR misses are better with a fade, then by all means it is the shot to play. 🙂 Doesn't mean it is universal though!

2 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

also favoring a draw vs a fade is not the same thing as favoring a left or right miss. 

^bingo! I tend to hit draws, and miss right and left of my intended targets, as do faders of the ball I play with. 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by b.mattay

[tthomasgolfer605]

 

6 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

 

Logically, a push when trying to hit a draw also has that short right tendency, where the overcooked draw has a long-left tendency. A flushed hot pull when trying to hit a fade has a long left tendency and the overcooked fade has a short right tendency. In both cases, you get a similar shot pattern in terms of long left and short right, regardless of intended shot shape. 

^bingo! I tend to hit draws, and miss right and left of my intended targets, as do faders of the ball I play with. 

 

Would you prefer a left or right miss into a green. Let's use Riviera CC where the pros are playing this week for example. 

[b.mattay]

10 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

 

Would you prefer a left or right miss into a green. Let's use Riviera CC where the pros are playing this week for example. 

Not sure what you are getting at. Both faders and drawers miss it right and left of their intended target? You can effectively eliminate a "danger zone" by moving your target.

 

Some holes left is a better miss, some holes right is a better miss. 

I don't know anything about Riviera specifically either.

Edited February 19, 2021 by b.mattay

[tthomasgolfer605]

44 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Rory is the best driver of the ball on the planet, he is one of the very few who can hit up on it a lot, without losing face control and/or getting the low strike.  There is a reason why PGA tour average angle of attack is still down. Let's be real, you make like to make claims based on nothing other than your own opinions, you get challenged, then you say "in general", get challenged again, then try to use single data points and anecdotes to prove your "general" point. Statistics don't work that way,

He challenged me saying shots off the toe result in a fade and heel strikes result in a draw . I proved with actual data that they're not. Knowing that you're a hack, and I've been a plus handicap for a couple of decades, what makes you think you know more than I do?  

[b.mattay]

3 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

He challenged me saying shots off the toe result in a fade and heel strikes result in a draw . I proved with actual data that they're not. Knowing that you're a hack, and I've been a plus handicap for a couple of decades, what makes you think you know more than I do?  

No need to be calling people hacks. Let's keep it civil here! He also didn't say that, just that in to out paths tend to have heel strikes and out to in paths tend to have toe strikes. Generally a true statement. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 minute ago, b.mattay said:

No need to be calling people hacks. Let's keep it civil here! He also didn't say that, just that in to out paths tend to have heel strikes and out to in paths tend to have toe strikes. Generally a true statement. 

He said he was a hack even here on the forums. Sorry. I meant 'average golfer.' 

[b.mattay]

1 minute ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

He said he was a hack even here on the forums. Sorry. I meant 'average golfer.' 

There's a difference between self-depreciation and insults. Sometimes I call myself naughty words after a bad putt. Doesn't mean I want others to do the same😂

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 minute ago, b.mattay said:

There's a difference between self-depreciation and insults. Sometimes I call myself naughty words after a bad putt. Doesn't mean I want others to do the same😂

He has a habit of trying to debunk everything I say. Onward..... I don't know what the percentage is, but most greens have some degree of back to front slope to them.  David Duval in his prime stated he purposely aimed for the front or short of the green on shots he wasn't confident with. His reason was, "Because most greens slope back to front and it will give me an easier uphill putt or chip to make par and avoid Bogey or worse."  That was in a clinic right after he shot 59. Most great golfers understand that long/left is a no no day in and day out. 

[b.mattay]

30 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

He has a habit of trying to debunk everything I say. Onward..... I don't know what the percentage is, but most greens have some degree of back to front slope to them.  David Duval in his prime stated he purposely aimed for the front or short of the green on shots he wasn't confident with. His reason was, "Because most greens slope back to front and it will give me an easier uphill putt or chip to make par and avoid Bogey or worse."  That was in a clinic right after he shot 59. Most great golfers understand that long/left is a no no day in and day out. 

Good to move onward. Respectfully, I don't agree with a lot of your points. 
 

Decade Golf has shown the best players hit more shots pin high or beyond the pin than poorer players, even at the tour level. So regardless of what Duval said, the stats of the best players in the world don't bear that out. In specific situations, of course sometimes short is better, not going to argue that! Of course nuking it over a green to a back pin is generally not good. 
 

Also, I have not seen you prove how a fade pattern eliminates long and left. As I've said in multiple posts, you can miss both short right and long left regardless of whether you hit a draw or a fade. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

8 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

Good to move onward. Respectfully, I don't agree with a lot of your points. 
 

Decade Golf has shown the best players hit more shots pin high or beyond the pin than poorer players, even at the tour level. So regardless of what Duval said, the stats of the best players in the world don't bear that out. In specific situations, of course sometimes short is better, not going to argue that! Of course nuking it over a green to a back pin is generally not good. 
 

Also, I have not seen you prove how a fade pattern eliminates long and left. As I've said in multiple posts, you can miss both short right and long left regardless of whether you hit a draw or a fade. 

A fade bias reduces the chances of a long and left miss. I never said it eliminated it although a double cross is a rare occurrence. What do Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan and a modern major winner like Brooks Koepka have in common? A fade bias. Let's play count the majors. 

[Jimjam651]

This thread has become very heated for a question that has a rather simple answer 😛

 

Most players have a tendancy to deliver a bit lower dynamic loft when hitting a draw/hook so the ball will have a bit less spin / go a bit further / roll a bit more compared to a fade. 

 

This isn't the case for everyone but a good rule of thumb.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, whether your hitting a draw / fade you will still have a long left & short right miss within your normal shot pattern

[b.mattay]

1 hour ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

A fade bias reduces the chances of a long and left miss. I never said it eliminated it although a double cross is a rare occurrence. What do Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan and a modern major winner like Brooks Koepka have in common? A fade bias. Let's play count the majors. 

Never have mentioned a double cross. A slight pull or straight ball when trying to hit a fade is "long left" of your target the majority of the time.

Example: Assume a tight 5y fade, 150 yard shot, back left pin, 3 paces from the left, long/left is jail

99.9% of these faders won't start a ball left of a green to a back pin 3 paces on from the left. A perfect" baby fade would be tight, while a straight ball is....long left. Therefore, the final target would be shifted right of the pin so that the left miss doesn't kill you. If you were hitting a draw, the final target would be right of the pin as well...because long left exists for a draw too. 

 

Plenty of major winners draw it too, or fade the driver, draw the irons. For the record, I am not against any particular shot shape, as the repeatability and course strategy matters more.

 

Smart targets >> shot shape

Edited February 19, 2021 by b.mattay

[pinhigh27]

5 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

He challenged me saying shots off the toe result in a fade and heel strikes result in a draw . I proved with actual data that they're not. Knowing that you're a hack, and I've been a plus handicap for a couple of decades, what makes you think you know more than I do?  

I didn’t say they result in toe strikes, I said they would tend to result in toe strikes for misses . People have miss tendencies . Obviously you can pure it while swinging left and right and the better the player, the more often this happens. I also never said a toe shot would result in a fade, so good job making that up. I said players who fade it tend to toe it 
 

there is literally a thread every week on “ I have a +4 AoA and have a 8 loft low spin driver , why do I have 3000 spin “ and they are all invariably hitting it low on the face. 
 

your trackman chart and rorys numbers prove nothing. Again , yes people who swing left will tend to toe it, all else equal. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by pinhigh27

[pinhigh27]

5 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

He challenged me saying shots off the toe result in a fade and heel strikes result in a draw . I proved with actual data that they're not. Knowing that you're a hack, and I've been a plus handicap for a couple of decades, what makes you think you know more than I do?  

What data did you use ? The trackman link about the dimples has literally nothing to do with what we are discussing  and Rorys data from one session proves nothing. 

[pinhigh27]

8 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I showed you trackman data on a zeroed out path to face. Heel contact results in left to right spin. Toe contact results in right to left spin. Not one tour pro hits their irons high on the face even when teed up. Rory hits up on it a bit with the driver but the contact is dead center. Would you like a picture of that too? 

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I never debated that toeing it causes leftward axis tilt and vise versa. We are talking about impact location tendencies for various paths. If you can’t understand the difference then you can’t have the conversation . 

[Kenny W]

When your swing is more sound, you tend to never hit a slice. However, your “sound” swing when timing is off can quickly turn from a beautiful draw to a disorienting hook. When that happens, every shot is intimidating because you now have now idea how far left the next shot is going to go, especially off the tee. Got this reason, I’m relearning how to consistently hit a slight fade off the tee. More control and less rollout once the ball lands. 
 

I also agree with the other comments. 

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 hour ago, pinhigh27 said:

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I never debated that toeing it causes leftward axis tilt and vise versa. We are talking about impact location tendencies for various paths. If you can’t understand the difference then you can’t have the conversation . 

Please enlighten me with your definition of horizontal gear effect. 

[pinhigh27]

No one is debating what horizontal gear effect is. Yes the axis tilt of the ball will move left based on a toe hit. You said fade biased pros miss right because they heel it. I do not agree and think they missed it right bc or a face to path mismatch as their tendency is to toe the ball due to the way the club is moving through impact. The club is moving left in 3D ie the toe of the club is getting closer to the ball than the heel of the club, which is moving away from the ball. 
 

again I could not be more clear what I am saying . People (Rh golfers ) who have leftward paths tend to hit the ball off the toe when they miss. Just like someone who has a positive AoA tends to hit it low on the face and someone who is very negative would hit it higher on the face. This does not change the fact that toe shots cause leftward axis tilt. That is a result , not a cause. 
 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by pinhigh27

[tm3]

22 hours ago, acekun said:

Do you have a hook or a draw? I don't understand why she would want to get rid of a draw. There's a LOT of pros whose natural shot shape is a draw. And not "all pros try to miss right." Their miss is dictated by the hole. 

 

 

 

21 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

Would find a new pro, she must have forgot hazards don't only exist on the right side of the course. 

 

Her claim didn't make any sense and I declined to work on getting rid of my draw figuring that if it worked for Azinger it would probably work for me.  Due to glowing recommendations I stuck it out for a couple more lessons but eventually bailed due to no benefit, more vague/nonsensical statements, and the constant sales pitch to invest in a lesson "package."

[phizzy30]

This one's easy to answer.

 

"You can talk to a fade but a hook won't listen."

[knockdstiff]

Left-moving misses (for a righty) get ugly faster. They dive towards trouble and come in hot, rolling out further. A slice comes down steeper, so it tends to stay put when it lands and runs into trouble less often. A slice can also respond to a favorable crosswind, getting pulled back in a bit at the apex. I haven't seen a hook do that before - by the time the slice is getting bent back in the wind, the hook has already vanished into the trees. The slice is also probably not going to go as far, since it'll come off with more spin than a draw. Less far is usually a good thing when the ball isn't headed in the direction you intended.

 

Remember that golf is a game of misses. A lot of improvement comes from getting your bad shots to be less bad. A fade is *usually* a gentler miss. That's all this fear of the left is about - it's when you miss, how bad did you miss? Then put course design on top of that - in the midwest, I haven't seen a lot of holes where pin high left or long left is a good place to be. Yes, there are some - often on holes where short/short right is water you'll get a 'bailout' area left or long left - but those tend to be the exception. Most of the time, short right is a straightforward bunker shot or chip/pitch into a green sloping towards you. Those are (or should be) easy par saves. A left miss will, more often, require something pretty slick to salvage par. Again this is all 'most of the time' and we can all think of exceptions, but if you're looking at long term improvement you need to be putting the probabilities in your favor wherever possible.

 

That being said, none of this means your instructor is right for wanting to banish your draw. A good teacher would explain why it might be worth considering, not mandate a change to something you find natural.

[davep043]

 

On 2/18/2021 at 9:34 AM, kjmtthws said:

So every time I watch the golf on TV (tons of rain here lately and haven't been getting out myself) I hear announcers talk about "that is a great anti-left miss swing"... Also hear about pros driver set ups needing a very firm tip in the shaft to "avoid a left miss".. I never hear about a pro wanting to avoid a right miss.. 

 

On 2/18/2021 at 4:17 PM, tthomasgolfer605 said:

This thread is why pros prefer a right miss. 

 

On 2/18/2021 at 9:49 PM, tthomasgolfer605 said:

This thread is about why Professional golfers prefer a right miss. 

 

Actually, in reading the actual words of the OP, this thread is about the reason the announcers keep saying the same thing.  In my experience, the announcers keep repeating the same old "conventional wisdom", whether its true or not.