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Titleist TSi4 for slower swing speeds?


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Just out of curiosity, why are you trying to go so low on the spin rate?  The general consensus is that the slower the swing speed the more spin you need to keep the ball in the air.   Based

What is your launch angle? Because at 90mph swing speed, as long as you are not pairing it with a really high launch angle, 3000rpm should not be hurting your distance, and may actually be helping the

I would highly suggest working on hitting down more on that ball. You say you have a driver loft of 7.75 and a launch angle of high teens (let's assume 17). That means you probably have an angle of at

1 hour ago, Landy said:

Hello - I tend to put alot of spin on the ball and see the new TSi4 tailors to lower the spin rates.  But will it work for a 90mph SS?

Or do you need to crank it up in order to get the optimal performance from this driver?  Any thoughts from those who have demoed this driver?

Thank you and stay safe.

You say you are a high spin player but how high. Took me too long to realize but at 100 or so I need more spin than the guy swinging 115. And you need more than the guy at 100. Without enough spin at lower speeds it just falls from the sky.

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21 hours ago, Shilgy said:

You say you are a high spin player but how high. Took me too long to realize but at 100 or so I need more spin than the guy swinging 115. And you need more than the guy at 100. Without enough spin at lower speeds it just falls from the sky.

 

I'm right there at the 90 mph swing speed with the driver. Spin for me is typically mid 3000's. Occasionally it goes up to and over 4000 and once in a blue moon I'll get under 3000. And that's with my driver set at 7.75* of loft. If I go up any higher on loft, the ball goes sky high with very minimal roll-out and no more carry than usual. And the spin numbers go up over 4000 and get closer to 5000. 

 

Right now I'm hitting the Titleist TS3 but really thinking about trying the TS4 or the TSi4. Just for further reference, I'm 69 years old with a high single digit handicap so I get it around decently enough. But despite numerous swing sessions with this teacher or that teacher, no one has been able to show me anything with my swing that is causing the spin numbers I get. 

 

So I welcome any thoughts or suggestions or observations. And don't worry about hurting my feelings. I'm not that sensitive of a guy 😉 

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Yes my spin numbers are maxing out at 3100 - 3300 with my TM SIM Max at 9* and have a Fuji Evo Vl.

Tried the Tensei Blue Raw and that brought it down to 2700-2800, but wish to get it down to 2400-2500.

Just ordered a Atmos Patriot 5 as the Atmos Blue had me in that range.  

But I wonder if its the head or the shaft?  Will keep tinkering...

Stay safe.

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Just out of curiosity, why are you trying to go so low on the spin rate?  The general consensus is that the slower the swing speed the more spin you need to keep the ball in the air.

 

Based on a quick look with the flightscope trajectory optimizer (https://flightscope.com/products/trajectory-optimizer/), with a 90 mph swing speed (assuming 1.5 smash factor for a 135 mph ball speed) changing the spin rate between 2400 and 3100 makes very little difference (just a yard or two) in your carry distances.  Changing the launch angle had a bigger effect.

 

So, to me, it seems like the most important thing at your swing speed would be getting the right launch angle and making sure you're hitting it in the middle of the face, rather than trying to knock off a few hundred RPMs.

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10 hours ago, North Texas said:

 

I'm right there at the 90 mph swing speed with the driver. Spin for me is typically mid 3000's. Occasionally it goes up to and over 4000 and once in a blue moon I'll get under 3000. And that's with my driver set at 7.75* of loft. If I go up any higher on loft, the ball goes sky high with very minimal roll-out and no more carry than usual. And the spin numbers go up over 4000 and get closer to 5000. 

 

Right now I'm hitting the Titleist TS3 but really thinking about trying the TS4 or the TSi4. Just for further reference, I'm 69 years old with a high single digit handicap so I get it around decently enough. But despite numerous swing sessions with this teacher or that teacher, no one has been able to show me anything with my swing that is causing the spin numbers I get. 

 

So I welcome any thoughts or suggestions or observations. And don't worry about hurting my feelings. I'm not that sensitive of a guy 😉 

 

Have you checked your contact on the face and what kind of launch monitors have you been on? At that swing speed with solid contact it would be impossible to get numbers like that. To get numbers like that your contact would need to be low on the face. I would check your contact pattern and tee hight. 

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On 2/18/2021 at 8:54 AM, Landy said:

Hello - I tend to put alot of spin on the ball and see the new TSi4 tailors to lower the spin rates.  But will it work for a 90mph SS?

Or do you need to crank it up in order to get the optimal performance from this driver?  Any thoughts from those who have demoed this driver?

Thank you and stay safe.

What is your launch angle? Because at 90mph swing speed, as long as you are not pairing it with a really high launch angle, 3000rpm should not be hurting your distance, and may actually be helping the ball stay in the air a bit longer. Just a frame of reference, LPGA players average 14° launch and 2600 rpm. So you should look at both numbers, because lower spin will not always mean more distance. It may be that you need to optimize your launch. 

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11 hours ago, Jc0 said:

 

Have you checked your contact on the face and what kind of launch monitors have you been on? At that swing speed with solid contact it would be impossible to get numbers like that. To get numbers like that your contact would need to be low on the face. I would check your contact pattern and tee hight. 

 

Now that you mention it. 

 

For the most part, I recall my smash factor generally being in the mid 1.4's. As far as face contact, it seems to be heel, toe, middle, or low. But never high on club face. I'm always experimenting with different tee height but just can't seem to find something that consistently works. 

 

As far as launch numbers, it's high teens. 

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4 hours ago, North Texas said:

 

Now that you mention it. 

 

For the most part, I recall my smash factor generally being in the mid 1.4's. As far as face contact, it seems to be heel, toe, middle, or low. But never high on club face. I'm always experimenting with different tee height but just can't seem to find something that consistently works. 

 

As far as launch numbers, it's high teens. 

 

Mid 1.4s means you're leaving some ball speed on the table.  Getting contact into the center of the face is going to do a lot for you in terms of increasing distance just purely by increased ball speed.  Plus, it will naturally bring the spin rate down as Jc0 suggested.

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8 hours ago, North Texas said:

 

Now that you mention it. 

 

For the most part, I recall my smash factor generally being in the mid 1.4's. As far as face contact, it seems to be heel, toe, middle, or low. But never high on club face. I'm always experimenting with different tee height but just can't seem to find something that consistently works. 

 

As far as launch numbers, it's high teens. 

 

I would highly suggest working on hitting down more on that ball. You say you have a driver loft of 7.75 and a launch angle of high teens (let's assume 17). That means you probably have an angle of attack of over 5 degrees. Yes you want to hit up on the ball but it's hard to hit up on the ball that much and maintain consistent contact. It also would explain why you can't hit the top side of the face, your club is coming up so fast that that it gets hard to hit the center, let alone top center. 

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31 minutes ago, Jc0 said:

 

I would highly suggest working on hitting down more on that ball. You say you have a driver loft of 7.75 and a launch angle of high teens (let's assume 17). That means you probably have an angle of attack of over 5 degrees. Yes you want to hit up on the ball but it's hard to hit up on the ball that much and maintain consistent contact. It also would explain why you can't hit the top side of the face, your club is coming up so fast that that it gets hard to hit the center, let alone top center. 

 

I like those thoughts. And you are right about the angle of attack. Thanks.

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On 2/19/2021 at 10:42 AM, Landy said:

Yes my spin numbers are maxing out at 3100 - 3300 with my TM SIM Max at 9* and have a Fuji Evo Vl.

Tried the Tensei Blue Raw and that brought it down to 2700-2800, but wish to get it down to 2400-2500.

Just ordered a Atmos Patriot 5 as the Atmos Blue had me in that range.  

But I wonder if its the head or the shaft?  Will keep tinkering...

Stay safe.

 

You don't mention your launch angle.

 

If you're launching it high, say around 16-17*, you can likely go a bit lower in spin rate but if you're launching low, say about 12* or so you probably don't want to spin it much lower than you already are.

 

Tensei White launches and spins a bit less than the Blue.

 

Of course the best way to tell is to try the shafts in a launch monitor,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

Ahhhh, I forgot, TSi4.

 

IIRC, a year or so ago, the TS2 & 3 were originally the more forgiving driver and the "player's driver respectively.

 

The TS1 & TS4 came by some months later. The TS1 was the most forgiving of the bunch and the TS4 the least forgiving of the bunch but really low spin.

 

In the world of driver heads, just as in real(?) life, you can't have everything. Low spin and forgiveness may not be mutually exclusive but they're close.

 

Anywho, I expect the TSi4, is like the TS4; very low spin but with a relatively low forgiveness factor. Titleist describes it as forward weighting for low spin (i.e. less forgiving) and "workable", manufacturer speak for "less forgiving. :classic_laugh:

 

Typically "weight BACK" is more forgiving and easier to launch while spinning more.

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On 2/19/2021 at 10:38 AM, North Texas said:

 

I'm right there at the 90 mph swing speed with the driver. Spin for me is typically mid 3000's. Occasionally it goes up to and over 4000 and once in a blue moon I'll get under 3000. And that's with my driver set at 7.75* of loft. If I go up any higher on loft, the ball goes sky high with very minimal roll-out and no more carry than usual. And the spin numbers go up over 4000 and get closer to 5000. 

 

Right now I'm hitting the Titleist TS3 but really thinking about trying the TS4 or the TSi4. Just for further reference, I'm 69 years old with a high single digit handicap so I get it around decently enough. But despite numerous swing sessions with this teacher or that teacher, no one has been able to show me anything with my swing that is causing the spin numbers I get. 

 

So I welcome any thoughts or suggestions or observations. And don't worry about hurting my feelings. I'm not that sensitive of a guy 😉 

 

You SAID you didn't get hurt feelings easily, right ?

 

Spend the dough on lessons. :classic_laugh:

 

I did, although I must say the lessons I got, while they resulted in pretty decent improvement, didn't include improving my driving issues very much.

 

In MY case, I was sliding my entire upper body towards the target; head and shoulders included (of course). That caused my club head to trail badly, causing a negative (downward) angle of attack which resulted in VERY HIGH spin (yup, around 4,000). Into the wind,,,,,,,,,,, balloon balls galore.

 

About 7 years or so ago, while demoing a driver in a store, the in-store teacher/salesman watched. He turned on the camera and when we looked at my swing the head and shoulders move forward was clear. He told me I had to keep my head back behind the ball and let myself swing upward at it. You know, like every tour pro you seen on TV does. 🙃

 

Boom. Once I worked on it I became a much more consistent striker of the ball with the driver, and much more accurate as well. I only swing around 95, but hitting upward lowered my spin rate to just above 2,000. Of course a newer driver and an appropriate shaft played their parts in lowering the spin as well.

 

Now I launch it around 16/17 with about 2200 spin rate. No more balloon balls. Much straighter and much more consistent.

 

Get to an instructor you trust, describe your issue and let him diagnose the problem first. Then, IF necessary, change the equipment.

 

And note. If you're hitting the ball all over the face, I don't think you'd be happy with the TSi4.

 

But you might try choking down on the shaft and inch or so and see if that improves the percentage of center strikes. I find that works pretty well for me. Good luck 👍

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8 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

You SAID you didn't get hurt feelings easily, right ?

 

Spend the dough on lessons. :classic_laugh:

 

I did, although I must say the lessons I got, while they resulted in pretty decent improvement, didn't include improving my driving issues very much.

 

In MY case, I was sliding my entire upper body towards the target; head and shoulders included (of course). That caused my club head to trail badly, causing a negative (downward) angle of attack which resulted in VERY HIGH spin (yup, around 4,000). Into the wind,,,,,,,,,,, balloon balls galore.

 

About 7 years or so ago, while demoing a driver in a store, the in-store teacher/salesman watched. He turned on the camera and when we looked at my swing the head and shoulders move forward was clear. He told me I had to keep my head back behind the ball and let myself swing upward at it. You know, like every tour pro you seen on TV does. 🙃

 

Boom. Once I worked on it I became a much more consistent striker of the ball with the driver, and much more accurate as well. I only swing around 95, but hitting upward lowered my spin rate to just above 2,000. Of course a newer driver and an appropriate shaft played their parts in lowering the spin as well.

 

Now I launch it around 16/17 with about 2200 spin rate. No more balloon balls. Much straighter and much more consistent.

 

Get to an instructor you trust, describe your issue and let him diagnose the problem first. Then, IF necessary, change the equipment.

 

And note. If you're hitting the ball all over the face, I don't think you'd be happy with the TSi4.

 

But you might try choking down on the shaft and inch or so and see if that improves the percentage of center strikes. I find that works pretty well for me. Good luck 👍

 

Yea, you're not going to hurt my feelings, lol.

 

No doubt there are swing issues. Have been to several instructors over the past two years but nothing has seemed to click. Pretty frustrated with my driver over the past couple of years. 

 

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I'd say try the Tsi3 first. If you can hit that consistently well, then maybe try Tsi4. There aren't a whole lot of people that will fit into the Tsi4 in general (very high club speed, need to kill spin).

 

 

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This sounds like something that might require multiple tweaks to optimize. 

 

1. I'd guess angle of attack is part of the issue. Start with a bit of tilt in setup and tee it up higher, both will promote a positive angle of attack. 

 

2. On the equipment side, Getting fit would be the best option. (Beyond that)-

As I understand it, TSI4 is the least forgiving in the family so that's something to consider. You might find something that's lower spin with a bit more help. Epix Max LS comes to mind, but I'm aware it's not as big a spin killer as your suggestion. Callaway is typically the hottest face of the OEMs as well. 

 

3. Another equipment variable to ponder is the shaft. It's possible you're using a shaft that's too soft. That's a relatively quick swing speed for your age. I'd guess that's towards the low end of Regular flex, so if you're using Senior it could be too whippy.

 

4. You could tweak your ball, depending on what you use. If you're a Pro V1 person, you could try ProV1X, ProV1X Left Dash, or AVX.  Vice you could use the Pro Plus. Most OEMs have a spin killing option, that will assist.

 

(Personal Anecdote)

My cousin had a mega overspin issue with a cloud busting flight path. We worked through it together, He was using Reg Flex 10.5°, so first band-aid was to throw an old 9° FT5 with a stiff shaft in the bag. That made a huge difference, but still wasn't perfect. 

 

We then found a used Ping G LSTech, Stiff Shaft, it was 9° and cranked it down to 7.5°, it was like a miracle, he added about 30yds from where he began.

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5 hours ago, Jc0 said:

 

I would highly suggest working on hitting down more on that ball. You say you have a driver loft of 7.75 and a launch angle of high teens (let's assume 17). That means you probably have an angle of attack of over 5 degrees. Yes you want to hit up on the ball but it's hard to hit up on the ball that much and maintain consistent contact. It also would explain why you can't hit the top side of the face, your club is coming up so fast that that it gets hard to hit the center, let alone top center. 

 

This is a really interesting situation, and I think Jc0 hit the nail on the head. If you're swinging at around 90 with a 7.75 degree head and getting high launch, I think the angle of attack has to be on the very high side. And considering that AOA, the only way it's going to spin like that is with a low strike.

 

I wish I had the magic fix for you, but understanding your own tendencies can/should certainly help in finding the right direction. Good luck and have fun no matter what!

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17 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

You don't mention your launch angle.

 

If you're launching it high, say around 16-17*, you can likely go a bit lower in spin rate but if you're launching low, say about 12* or so you probably don't want to spin it much lower than you already are.

 

Tensei White launches and spins a bit less than the Blue.

 

Of course the best way to tell is to try the shafts in a launch monitor,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

Ahhhh, I forgot, TSi4.

 

IIRC, a year or so ago, the TS2 & 3 were originally the more forgiving driver and the "player's driver respectively.

 

The TS1 & TS4 came by some months later. The TS1 was the most forgiving of the bunch and the TS4 the least forgiving of the bunch but really low spin.

 

In the world of driver heads, just as in real(?) life, you can't have everything. Low spin and forgiveness may not be mutually exclusive but they're close.

 

Anywho, I expect the TSi4, is like the TS4; very low spin but with a relatively low forgiveness factor. Titleist describes it as forward weighting for low spin (i.e. less forgiving) and "workable", manufacturer speak for "less forgiving. :classic_laugh:

 

Typically "weight BACK" is more forgiving and easier to launch while spinning more.

Thank you 

My launch is from 14 - 15*

Will give the TSi3 a test

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On 2/21/2021 at 7:14 AM, North Texas said:

 

I like those thoughts. And you are right about the angle of attack. Thanks.

If you are making contact low on the face, the "low spin" or low MOI drivers are actually going to make the ball spin MORE.  Check out the ClubTechs section for more details but in short the gear-effect is higher on low MOI drivers.  What this means is if you make contact high on the face it will really reduce spin.  But low on the face and it will add even more spin.

 

I tried hitting up on the ball before and I found that I was adding a lot of dynamic loft.  I would also suggest try swinging closer to level.  You may make better contact (consequently, you may find you need more loft on the driver but that is a different question).

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40 minutes ago, Konsta said:

Professional golfers hit 1.3 degrees down on the ball on average. Usually the more you hit up on the ball, the more inconsistent you are with the strikes and clubface control. For them it's more important than the extra yards (stats show this too).

Personally, I think this is one of those outdated stats like the pros average driver length is < 45 inches.  But many pros don't hit up on it, and many recreational golfers do more harm than good trying to hit up on it, so I don't disagree with the message.  IMO, the issue is that many amateurs just add dynamic loft when swinging up.  You still need to keep your hands ahead of the clubhead to get the max benefit, and this is not easy to do for many.

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On 2/18/2021 at 10:54 AM, Landy said:

Hello - I tend to put alot of spin on the ball and see the new TSi4 tailors to lower the spin rates.  But will it work for a 90mph SS?

Or do you need to crank it up in order to get the optimal performance from this driver?  Any thoughts from those who have demoed this driver?

Thank you and stay safe.

Any thoughts about trying the TSI1? Looks like it’s for slower swing speeds. 

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On 2/18/2021 at 12:24 PM, Landy said:

Hello - I tend to put alot of spin on the ball and see the new TSi4 tailors to lower the spin rates.  But will it work for a 90mph SS?

Or do you need to crank it up in order to get the optimal performance from this driver?  Any thoughts from those who have demoed this driver?

Thank you and stay safe.

I don't think this would be a wise choice for such a slow swing speed. I'd work on your technique before conventing to a 425cc driver. It'll probably knock some rpms off but add some stroke to your game.

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19 minutes ago, North Texas said:

 

Do you mind elaborating on this thought? Thanks.

Simply put, forgiveness on off center strikes is key for golfers that struggle to find the center of the clubface consistently. Meaning the higher MOI drivers are going to be the better clubs (producing more consistent #'s) for hitting descent drives on off center hits.

 

Low spin drivers like Tsi4, LST,ect  are designed with the perimeter weighing forward resulting in a lower MOI.

 

The Tsi4 when struck off center will undoubtedly be more damaging to your ball speed, launch/spin than say a G425 max (just using as an example as they are a high MOI driver that seems to produce great numbers)  

 

MOI plays a bigger part in drivers/woods than it does irons as they are the longest clubs in the bag you swing the fastest.  

 

High MOI drivers have the weight farthest away from the face (opposite of Tsi4)  to reduce twisting at impact resulting in more consistency on off center strikes.  

 

 

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A younger, more naive version of me chased lower spin via the Titleist 915 D4...basically the TSi4’s granddad. It was my first ever fitting and the fitter was trying to get spin down and distance up. I ended up with an 8.5 head, set at 7.75. 

When I hit it well, it was tough to beat on distance. It just wasn’t great on the course. Not forgiving at all. 
 

In hindsight, I wish he would have told me to get a lesson to reduce spin and fit me for a more forgiving driver.

 

I ended up getting lessons and switched to a Ping G410+.  I now have much lower spin than I did with the D4 and my old swing. 
 

 

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      We are back on the ground at the 2021 Farmers PGA Tour event. Please add you comments in this thread. Here are links to all the galleries:
       
      Special galleries:
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #1
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #2
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #3
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #4
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #5
       
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #6
       
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #7
       
      Cameron putters - Farmers 2021
       
      Odyssey 2-ball Ten - Farmers 2021
       
      Project X Even Flow RipTide MX & LX proto shafts - Framers 2021
       
      TaylorMade putter cover for Torrey Pines - Farmers 2021
       
      Sling Shot training aid - Farmers 2021
       
       
      • 47 replies
    • 2021 American Express WITB & Equipment Photos- Links and comments
      We are back on the ground at the American Express PGA event.
       
      Here are links to all the galleries:
       
      Cameron putters - 2021 American Express
      PXG Gen 4 prototype drivers - new putters
      UST Maymiya LinQ shafts - American Express 2021
      Mitsubishi Kaili & MMT shafts - American Express 2021
      Titleist TSi 2 & TSi 3 hybrids - American Express 2021
      TaylorMade putter cover for Palm Springs/Palm Desert - American Express
      New Aldila Synergy, Ascent & prototype shafts - American Express 2021
      Callaway Apex Pro iron, Epic Driver and fairway, Apex iron & hybrid - American Express 2021
      New Perfect Practice training aids - American Express 2021
      New KBS prototype shafts - American Express 2021
       
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      • 18 replies

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