MGA Question 21

[Newby]

21. In a stroke play event with Local Rule G-4 in effect, a player is taking relief from a penalty area. The player drops in the right way and the ball comes to rest outside the relief area. The player drops in a right way again and the ball again comes to rest outside the relief area. At this point, it becomes known the player has been dropping a ball of a different brand than had been selected for the round.

A. To avoid a G-4 penalty the player should place a ball of the correct brand on the spot where the second drop struck the course.

B. To avoid a G-4 penalty the player should drop a ball of the correct brand in the right way and if it rolls out of the relief area should drop a ball again.

C. To avoid a G-4 penalty the player should drop a ball of the correct brand in the right way and if it rolls out of the relief area should place a ball where it first struck the course.

D. The player cannot avoid a penalty

[antip]

A

[TerpFangolfer]

Hmmm...

Spoiler

ok, the MLR allows correction under 14.5 but question is do the drops with the wrong brand count? I think most likely yes

, so A

[kjelllkri]

TerpFangolfer
B

Spoiler

If a different brand and/or model is dropped, replaced or placed but has not yet been played, the player may correct the mistake by stopping use of that ball, without penalty, under Rule 14.5. The player must  drop, replace or place a ball of the same brand and model as used at the start of the round.

 

[Newby]

#21 C Model Local Rule G-4, Rule 14.3, Rule 14.5b

[Mr. Bean]

Is everybody happy with this answer?

 

I am not as the text in G-4 does not support it.

[Halebopp]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

Is everybody happy with this answer?

 

I am not as the text in G-4 does not support it.

 

Would 14.5a help you? If you, for example, drop a ball in a wrong way, that drop doesn't count and you need to try again. I can see the player only needing to redo the previous step (the second drop) but right now I'm too tired to dig into the book to find written proof for it.

[Mr. Bean]

30 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

Would 14.5a help you? If you, for example, drop a ball in a wrong way, that drop doesn't count and you need to try again. I can see the player only needing to redo the previous step (the second drop) but right now I'm too tired to dig into the book to find written proof for it.

 

Dropping a ball in a wrong way to me is different from dropping a wrong ball in the right way.

 

Should this happen on the course I sure would get pitiful glances if I asked the player to drop a correct ball after two drops with an incorrect ball...

 

EDIT: One way of looking at this is when a ball becomes the ball in play. A provisional ball of different brand played under G-4 is just fine unless that ball becomes the ball in play. In this quiz case the dropped ball is in play but as described in G-4 the error may be corrected by 'dropping, replacing or placing a ball of correct brand and model'. To me that text says that placing is one of the options but MGA sees it differently.

 

This is a question you cannot find a correct answer to from the Rules. It would be nice to have a clarification to this one as the answer provided by MGA sounds rather silly.

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[antip]

USGA has ruled on their Facebook rules page that an incorrect ball (eg breaching the G-4 local rule) does not impact the correct ball drop count. So the drop count is already complete, the answer is A and the MGA is wrong.

Edit, left out the word 'drop' in the first sentence.

Edited March 18, 2021 by antip

[rogolf]

41 minutes ago, antip said:

USGA has ruled on their Facebook rules page that an incorrect ball (eg breaching the G-4 local rule) does not impact the correct ball drop count. So the drop count is already complete, the answer is A and the MGA is wrong.

Edit, left out the word 'drop' in the first sentence.

Not the first time that they've been wrong.  We must remember that this is not a quiz from a ruling body, hence it's answers are not "gospel".

[antip]

3 hours ago, rogolf said:

Not the first time that they've been wrong.  We must remember that this is not a quiz from a ruling body, hence it's answers are not "gospel".

Total agreement from me and there is nothing critical in such observation. They intend things to be challenging and I support that even though they occasionally four putt in the process.

[Sawgrass]

4 hours ago, antip said:

USGA has ruled on their Facebook rules page that an incorrect ball (eg breaching the G-4 local rule) does not impact the correct ball drop count. So the drop count is already complete, the answer is A and the MGA is wrong.

Edit, left out the word 'drop' in the first sentence.

Could you kindly provide a link to that G-4 comment of theirs?

[antip]

27 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Could you kindly provide a link to that G-4 comment of theirs?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/RulesOfGolf/permalink/3360949417294064

[Mr. Bean]

The question was:

'When taking relief, I substitute a ball that is not allowed, i.e. non-conforming or a ball in breach of MLR G-4 (if in effect), drop in a right way and within the relief area. However, I realize my error before making a stroke, lift the illegal ball and drop a ball that is allowed. My next drop with a correct ball rolls out of the relief area. Does that initial drop count as one of the two drops required for determining when the ball must be placed under R14.3c(2)?'

 

Does that situation really require another drop even though the 1st drop was legitimate?

[Halebopp]

6 hours ago, antip said:

USGA has ruled on their Facebook rules page that an incorrect ball (eg breaching the G-4 local rule) does not impact the correct ball drop count. So the drop count is already complete, the answer is A and the MGA is wrong.

Edit, left out the word 'drop' in the first sentence.

 

Cheers! That does keep things more simple. 🙂

[antip]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

The question was:

'When taking relief, I substitute a ball that is not allowed, i.e. non-conforming or a ball in breach of MLR G-4 (if in effect), drop in a right way and within the relief area. However, I realize my error before making a stroke, lift the illegal ball and drop a ball that is allowed. My next drop with a correct ball rolls out of the relief area. Does that initial drop count as one of the two drops required for determining when the ball must be placed under R14.3c(2)?'

 

Does that situation really require another drop even though the 1st drop was legitimate?

My view is no, that incorrect ball is in play in the correct position, and to avoid penalty the player must mark, lift and replace as allowed by 14.5 and MLR G-4.

The USGA only answered the question put to them relating to dropping an incorrect ball. They did not provide a ruling on the scenario - that was not what they were not asked.

USGA engagement with that Facebook page has been extremely limited over the last 4-5 months, they have clearly had their hands very full elsewhere.

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, antip said:

My view is no, that incorrect ball is in play in the correct position, and to avoid penalty the player must mark, lift and replace as allowed by 14.5 and MLR G-4.

The USGA only answered the question put to them relating to dropping an incorrect ball. They did not provide a ruling on the scenario - that was not what they were not asked.

USGA engagement with that Facebook page has been extremely limited over the last 4-5 months, they have clearly had their hands very full elsewhere.

 

IMO that kind of answering is not what should be expected from a ruling body. Individuals reading the question and the answer tend to combine them as entities and in this case assume that the answer covers all aspects of the question. If they see an obvious error in the question they should correct it.

[davep043]

I think the USGA confirmed that a non-conforming ball can be dropped in the right way, and that drop counts.  So in the question, the player has made two right-way drops with a non-conforming (under G-4) ball, but has not made a stroke at that non-conforming ball.  Both drops count, based on the clarification on the Facebook page.  The next step under 14.3, the player must place "a ball" at the spot where the second drop landed, so he could place the same non-conforming ball, or a ball which is acceptable under G-4, without penalty.  He never made a stroke at a non-conforming ball.  With the USGA clarification regarding a drop with a non-conforming ball, this seems pretty straightforward to me.  Am I missing something?

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, davep043 said:

I think the USGA confirmed that a non-conforming ball can be dropped in the right way, and that drop counts.  So in the question, the player has made two right-way drops with a non-conforming (under G-4) ball, but has not made a stroke at that non-conforming ball.  Both drops count, based on the clarification on the Facebook page.  The next step under 14.3, the player must place "a ball" at the spot where the second drop landed, so he could place the same non-conforming ball, or a ball which is acceptable under G-4, without penalty.  He never made a stroke at a non-conforming ball.  With the USGA clarification regarding a drop with a non-conforming ball, this seems pretty straightforward to me.  Am I missing something?

 

No, not at all, that is what was all about in the MGA quiz question.

 

My point regarded the FB question where there was IMO an incorrect assumption:

'However, I realize my error before making a stroke, lift the illegal ball and drop a ball that is allowed.'

 

Why would the player drop a correct ball in that case?

[antip]

10 hours ago, davep043 said:

I think the USGA confirmed that a non-conforming ball can be dropped in the right way, and that drop counts.  So in the question, the player has made two right-way drops with a non-conforming (under G-4) ball, but has not made a stroke at that non-conforming ball.  Both drops count, based on the clarification on the Facebook page.  The next step under 14.3, the player must place "a ball" at the spot where the second drop landed, so he could place the same non-conforming ball, or a ball which is acceptable under G-4, without penalty.  He never made a stroke at a non-conforming ball.  With the USGA clarification regarding a drop with a non-conforming ball, this seems pretty straightforward to me.  Am I missing something?

As Mr B notes, on that USGA F/B page question, the (incorrect) ball was in play after the first drop which was taken in the right way and came to rest in the correct relief area. So that ball was in play. However, if a stroke was made at that incorrect ball, there would be a general penalty under G-4. So the player was permitted under G-4 and 14.5 to correct the error.

 

But here's the rub - the error was only the incorrect ball, the ball's position was correct. So dropping the ball again will take it to a wrong place. A consistent theme throughout the rules is there are no do-overs for the things the player gets right, there is only authority to correct the things that are done incorrectly.

 

It looks to me like the USGA consciously did not want to get into this complex space in their F/B answer so dealt only with the key question put to them.

 

It also seems clear that the seasonal switch into the Workshop/Exam period, significantly more resource intensive this year with all the current challenges operating, is exhausting the Rules Team resources on higher priorities things than the F/B page. And that doesn't look like changing for a while with their newly announced exam timetable and process.

 

So I suggest the old David Carradine show line applies to those of us that hunger for USGA answers to the tricky questions we formulate and send in - "Patience, grasshopper."

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, antip said:

So I suggest the old David Carradine show line applies to those of us that hunger for USGA answers to the tricky questions we formulate and send in - "Patience, grasshopper."

 

Must I understand your writing here so that you are able to send questions to USGA and even get answers?? I mean, you are in the R&A jurisdiction area, aren't you?

[antip]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Must I understand your writing here so that you are able to send questions to USGA and even get answers?? I mean, you are in the R&A jurisdiction area, aren't you?

I have been an attendee at USGA Rules Workshops and Exams in the last couple of years and, perhaps as a consequence of that, the USGA has been supportive and responsive to the questions I have sent. I was also an active participant in the Short Course on the Rules in 2020.

[Newby]

I understand the answer to this question is still being reviewed by the MGA.

[Newby]

Corrected answer

 

#21 A, B,C Model Local Rule G-4, Rule 14.3, Rule 14.5

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, Newby said:

Corrected answer

 

#21 A, B,C Model Local Rule G-4, Rule 14.3, Rule 14.5

 

So... three correct answers, is that it? Wow...