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How many mulligan's would you need to compete on the PGA Tour?


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I was giving this some thought last week watching the Pebble Beach 'Pro-AM'=(Pro only) to how many mulligans I would need to keep up. Pebble actually sets up well for me as far as Tour tracks go. I don't have anywhere near the distance for most courses on the tour, but Pebble is okay for me and I have shot a few over par there in the past (not in tournament conditions). 

 

Despite all that I think I would need 36 mulligans a round AND be playing well to make the cut. This also assumes I can get my nerves under control. 😀

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If you're a GolfWRX member, then you have to give the PGA Tour pros a few mulligans instead.

I’ve played several courses that the PGA and LPGA use and I would need to play as a one man scramble just to have my round look like a golf score and not a bowling one. 

I was giving this some thought last week watching the Pebble Beach 'Pro-AM'=(Pro only) to how many mulligans I would need to keep up. Pebble actually sets up well for me as far as Tour tracks go. I do

3 per hole please. I played The Creek at Dubai many years ago just before a European Tour event. The rough was quite short, but was like glue and swallowed golf balls. I had to take a wedge just to move the ball back on to the fairway. Two weeks later I watched Seve Ballesteros hit a 6 iron from the same place I had been onto the green and make it stop!

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Wow this is a great question. I love these topics and this is remarkably simple yet i'm not sure we've had this exact thread before. Well done

 

Hmmmm i really need to think about this. To "compete" would mean i presume to keep your card and have a moderate amount of success. Like you'd have to have a few top 10's, and that means going low. 

 

The best way to think about it would be thinking of it as being a 1-person Vegas where you could copy yourself the amount of times you'd need. I play on a course that is 6700yds and around 137 in slope, so it's tough...and i have the distance to do OK out to 7000+ so that wouldn't be a massive hinderance, but 500yd par 4's could be problematic. At my course we do a lot of Vegas style events, a 3 person Vegas of low indexes would be plenty. Probably too much. The worst i've ever shot at my course in one of those is like -7

 

a 2 person Vegas of 0-1 indexes would probably get you pretty close. You wouldn't have any blowup holes and you could make birdies. I think it would be somewhere around a 2-person Vegas for a scratch player

 

However if i hit a really good shot, i wouldn't use a mulligan. So it's not EXACTLY like a Vegas. I'm gonna start with a guess of around 11-13 per round for me

 

The handicap difference between me and a pro might only be ~7, however the idea of the thread is that you are doing well. So you are not just beating a pro, you are performing in the top echelon

 

 

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Hmmm... I'm gonna look at this to say, what would I need to shoot par on a pro level course from pro level tee's.  I'm a five, long'ish (not always accurate) off the tee and have a good wedge and putting game, but am not the best ball striker when my swing is off.  I'm thinking my game would not transfer all that well to that kind of set up due to a lot of 6 and 5 irons into par 4s.  I'm picturing a lot of long irons into greens.  I'm thinking i would need like 20 minimum, it could be up to 30 possibly more??  Great question.    

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I'm a +1 or 2 depending what time of year it is and two years ago we played 72 holes at Summerlin over the course of three days from the Shriners tees.  I played pretty well and shot -2 for the 72 holes.  We weren't playing tour pins but we were playing the 3rd as a par 4.  That year Na shot -23 so to easier pins he still got me by 21 shots and I only had two penalty shots as I remember.  I don't remember if I missed any short putts but to tour pins I'd probably need around 8 mulligans per day to compete.  That's assuming one or two mulligans to get out of trouble, one or two on missed putts, and a couple mulligans that end up not helping to save five shots a day.  

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11 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

Wow this is a great question. I love these topics and this is remarkably simple yet i'm not sure we've had this exact thread before. Well done

 

Hmmmm i really need to think about this. To "compete" would mean i presume to keep your card and have a moderate amount of success. Like you'd have to have a few top 10's, and that means going low. 

 

The best way to think about it would be thinking of it as being a 1-person Vegas where you could copy yourself the amount of times you'd need. I play on a course that is 6700yds and around 137 in slope, so it's tough...and i have the distance to do OK out to 7000+ so that wouldn't be a massive hinderance, but 500yd par 4's could be problematic. At my course we do a lot of Vegas style events, a 3 person Vegas of low indexes would be plenty. Probably too much. The worst i've ever shot at my course in one of those is like -7

 

a 2 person Vegas of 0-1 indexes would probably get you pretty close. You wouldn't have any blowup holes and you could make birdies. I think it would be somewhere around a 2-person Vegas for a scratch player

 

However if i hit a really good shot, i wouldn't use a mulligan. So it's not EXACTLY like a Vegas. I'm gonna start with a guess of around 11-13 per round for me

 

The handicap difference between me and a pro might only be ~7, however the idea of the thread is that you are doing well. So you are not just beating a pro, you are performing in the top echelon

 

 

Great break down and sounds like reasonable place to start.

 

I'm a 5 right now (and heading in the wrong direction 😞) Distance is an issue and realistically on long tour tracks my limits would be more than stretched and I could not reach some par 4's in 2 shots. As a 5 I am likely to shoot mid 80's on a long tour track and I would be getting to know my 3wood really well. I would need to be at 3 or 4 under per round on average to get on leaderboards, so I have to shave 17 or 18 strokes per round 🤯. Maybe 36 mulligans would not even be enough on long tracks?  I do feel good about at it at Pebble or the other sub 7000 tracks. 

 

The strategy would be interesting on when to use them too. Would you burn mulligans trying to hit greens in regulation or save them for the short game? 

 

 

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Well, my driver clubhead speed is around 95mph while playing but I can still get it up to 105mph with an all out effort.  LOL give me a 10 balls for every shot and I could probably complete a round on a tour course under par.  I am a decent putter once I know the line so I would make a lot of putts with 10 chances...  Maybe I could do it with 4 balls on every shot I don't know.  It would probably depend a lot on the course and how many forced carries there were.   I guess it would probably come to maybe 100 mulligans...

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I think that the closet I have gotten to trying a 'Tour' setup was at Spey Valley, Aviemore a few years ago now. They hosted a Challenge Tour (Euro equivalent of the Korn Ferry) event for a good number of years. A couple of local assistants that I knew well were invited to play and were allowed to head up for practice rounds. I got dragged along with them one day and they blagged me on for free (total result). We played from the back tees (7,200 yards approx) a couple weeks before the event.

 

I played absolutely out of my skin on what was a typical Scottish summer day by which I mean it was damp and raining off and on. By the 17th hole, I was +4 for the round. I had never hit so many 4 irons and hybrids in a round of golf in my life. As we walked off the 17th green the heavens opened and adding that to the water that had already fallen and it was a case of jumping in the cart and heading for the clubhouse so we never played the 18th but I could have hardly played better and still nowhere near good.

 

No idea how many mulligans I would need to compete on Tour - A LOT!!

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22 hours ago, 2bGood said:

I was giving this some thought last week watching the Pebble Beach 'Pro-AM'=(Pro only) to how many mulligans I would need to keep up. Pebble actually sets up well for me as far as Tour tracks go. I don't have anywhere near the distance for most courses on the tour, but Pebble is okay for me and I have shot a few over par there in the past (not in tournament conditions). 

 

Despite all that I think I would need 36 mulligans a round AND be playing well to make the cut. This also assumes I can get my nerves under control. 😀

 

Glad you mentioned distance.  With the added length for most tour events, mulligans would be inconsequential.   If a player needs to carry 240 over a hazard, and he or she can't physically carry 240, no amount of mulligans from the same spot will help.   

 

 

Here is my take: 

I'd like mulligans on all 4-par holes, 5-par holes and a "yardage bonus" of +20 yards on every one of my shots that hits the fairway.

No mulligans on the 3-par holes.  

 

 

 

 

 

 PS. my nod to Johnny Miller - we miss you. 

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I played Torrey Pines 1 month before the 2008 US Open. Before they decided how they wanted to cut the rough. I had the BEST driving day of my life that day. I played the back of every tee box, so 7800 yards. I could reach all par4's in 2 and par5's in 3 and par 3's were no more than long iron. As a ~4 handicap I shot 92. Mind you I hit EVERY fairway on the fly..some bounced down into the rough, but on the fly, hit short stuff.  I don't think any number of mulligans would have made me competitive that day considering I was hitting it 280y off the tee and unless you could shape it on command and land into the angled fairways, you're not able to compete. Now, at the US Open they cut the rough from 2" to 4" graduated and then they blew it down. Give me my tee shots, in 2" 2nd cut blown down, and I think I'm closer to 82 at the start, when even par was leading. So competitive would be, say +3. So I'll take 8 mulligans, 4 a side, to clean up some bad chips, or avoid a bunker two with approaches.


I also played Riviera in Dec. 2013. I shot 77 with a par if birdies and a pair of double bogeys. Both doubles I blame on the caddie for under, then over clubbing me on 4 and on 5.  I birdied 1 and 11. I think I had -2 or -3 in me that day if you remove the doubles and give me, maybe as few as 4 mulligans. #4 I hit 5w, not 4i. On 5 I hit 5W, not 3W. The other couple of bogeys, or lazy pars could convert with a couple better chips, or lag putts, and I think mulligans at that point would make a difference.

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I would need to be having a great ball striking day along with 36 or so mulligans per nine, unused mulligans cycling over to the back nine. Also would need authority to choose to use the mulligan or not after seeing the lie of all shot(s) used per stroke. Would also need to be paired with Patrick Reed so he could give me a few pointers on how to discreetly cheat.

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I don't hit long enough to matter. My driver is around 240, that's a good 4 iron for most pros. Now if I can move up a box or 2 and get mulligans...

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34 minutes ago, BombinJim said:

I would need to be having a great ball striking day along with 36 or so mulligans per nine, unused mulligans cycling over to the back nine. Also would need authority to choose to use the mulligan or not after seeing the lie of all shot(s) used per stroke. Would also need to be paired with Patrick Reed so he could give me a few pointers on how to discreetly cheat.

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5 hours ago, Ferguson said:

 

Glad you mentioned distance.  With the added length for most tour events, mulligans would be inconsequential.   If a player needs to carry 240 over a hazard, and he or she can't physically carry 240, no amount of mulligans from the same spot will help.   

 

 

Here is my take: 

I'd like mulligans on all 4-par holes, 5-par holes and a "yardage bonus" of +20 yards on every one of my shots that hits the fairway.

No mulligans on the 3-par holes.  

 

 

 

 

 

 PS. my nod to Johnny Miller - we miss you. 

The truly forced carry off the tee could be a problem, but there is not that many of them (maybe none?). And most you can get around if you are creative and lay up. I recall being in a silly scramble event one time where if you made birdie you had to move back a tee box. By poor planning we get to a par 3 with carry over water from the championship tee box. I am the only guy who has the length to carry the water and we used up all my tee shots so could not hit. We just hit chips to the forward tee box and then crossed from there. Still made par as it was towards the end of the event and we had mulligans to burn. So we made sure we were close on the approach shot and then sunk the putt after a few attempts.

 

If you push this to the ridiculous, almost every player could make par or better on most holes with enough mulligans. 

 

Think of groundhogs day, if you attempt it enough times you can get it perfect eventually.🥺

 

I guess the other issue is if you are relying on making par by getting up and down from 100+ there are some pin locations on the tour you can't get close to from that far out.

 

It would be interesting if @Obee dropped in here as he would have some pretty well informed opinions on this topic.

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

The truly forced carry off the tee could be a problem, but there is not that many of them (maybe none?). And most you can get around if you are creative and lay up. I recall being in a silly scramble event one time where if you made birdie you had to move back a tee box. By poor planning we get to a par 3 with carry over water from the championship tee box. I am the only guy who has the length to carry the water and we used up all my tee shots so could not hit. We just hit chips to the forward tee box and then crossed from there. Still made par as it was towards the event of the event and we had mulligans to burn. So we made sure we were close on the approach shot and then sunk the putt after a few attempts.

 

If you push this to the ridiculous, almost every player could make par or better on most holes with enough mulligans. 

 

Think of groundhogs day, if you attempt it enough times you can get it perfect eventually.🥺

 

I guess the other issue is if you are relying on making par by getting up and down from 100+ there are some pin locations on the tour you can't get close to for that far out.

 

It would be interesting if @Obee dropped in here as he would have some pretty well informed opinions on this topic.

 

 

 

 

Groundhog day has been usurped by "the edge of tomorrow" IMO

 

But i agree. the question is not whether or not it's possible it's how many attempts you'd need. 

 

 

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My short, smart a** answer is, a lot more than they’d give me! Haha

Seriously though. I played Harding Park as they were preparing it for the last PGA. Fairways narrowed, rough long and sticky. It was brutal and I played from the blues. They had the PGA boxes taped off. Our group would see their tee boxes and just shake our heads and say something to the effect , can you imagine having to play from there??? Ugh. It’s a different game.

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Im probably a bit better situated that most to evaluate this objectively as the course I play most is also now a Tour stop - Memorial Park in Houston. The cut line was +4 (playing as a par 70) so I will use +3 as my barometer. I usually play from the back tees and they didn't have it meaningfully longer for the tournament than they do for daily play. The rough was actually shorter for the PGA event than it was for most of the summer when they were letting it fill out after the reno and while the greens were faster, they didn't seem to be playing any firmer - so I will consider the conditions a relative wash. Over the summer I averaged a 74.5, to make the cut I'd need to be at a 71.5. So even with a local's knowledge, I'd baseline need to be 3 stroke better per round. I don't play competitively anymore, but I know from back in the day that my make percentage from under 10ft would drop by 15% in tournaments compared to non-tournament rounds and being out of practice, I bet that would be more like 20% now. Thats another ~3.5 putts per round. So now Im sitting at a score of 78, 7.5 above where I need to be. I think I'd probably gain back a half-stroke per mulligan, so my best case scenario at my home course would be 13 mulligans per round just to make the cut. Add in some additional nerves from competing with big names at a nationally televised event and that could easily spiral up to 18-24 mulligans per round, but that is harder to figure out exactly. 

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1 hour ago, TIScape said:

My short, smart a** answer is, a lot more than they’d give me! Haha

Seriously though. I played Harding Park as they were preparing it for the last PGA. Fairways narrowed, rough long and sticky. It was brutal and I played from the blues. They had the PGA boxes taped off. Our group would see their tee boxes and just shake our heads and say something to the effect , can you imagine having to play from there??? Ugh. It’s a different game.

Exactly, mulligans wouldn't help me.  I hit it straighter than most anyone I know, so I wouldn't be hitting any balls out of play, it's that I wouldn't be hitting them far enough to compete.  Many of the par 4's on tour would play as par 5's for me.  Assuming I could play the member tees AND get mulligans, I'd probably need at least one a hole, if I was playing great and  I wasn't too nervous.  Mulligans would really only help me a lot on approach shots, besides distance that is where the pros really shine compared to my game.  My short game is pretty solid, if the greens weren't off the charts fast I think I could keep from embarrassing myself. 

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