Advantages of 430cc vs 460cc driver

[Howard_Jones]

8 minutes ago, agolf1 said:

OK, thanks.  I'm still not sure if the change from 44.5 to whatever it is today (I'm not just looking at why DJ's driver is 45.75) is a) many players are playing longer irons/physical build, b) change in OEM measurements, or c) actual increase in playing length (measured apples-to-apples).  I understand the difficulty uncovering everything so we can probably stop (thanks again).

 

But Adam Scott is also interesting.  In the last 5 years or so he's gone ~44.75-45.00 to 46.00.  I don't think he's taller than before (or maybe he shortened his arms?)  All Titleist clubs.  And yes, only 1 person so hard to extrapolate to everyone.  Regards.

 

 

Instead of a debate about a number non of us have, look at theory and reality here...

Theory
Each 0.5" of play length extra is equal to about 2 mph more club speed.
With a smash factor of 1.5, 2 mph can be converted to 3 mph ball speed
We say that 1 mph ball speed is average 2 yards more carry.

Real life
Dusting Johnson went plus 1.25", so if he was like Iron Byron, his club speed should have gone up with 5 mph, and with a PTR of 1.5 that should give 7.5 mph ball speed and 15 yards carry
He only gained 10, meaning he either did not get the extra 5 mph club speed, or he had a drop in PTR value. The article did not clear that out, but if club speed when up with 5, he had a drop in impact quality (impact location) and that will introduce dispersion issues and to a level where its not worth it, since Golf aint long driving, and the lay up for the second shot will be more important than maybe "1 iron shorter in" if thats from a lay up who makes the approach or next lay up harder to make right.

So when we want to judge if a player plays a driver thats good or bad for him we have to look at fairway hits and GIR before and after a change.
 

[Titleist_PT23]

For whatever its worth, DJ was at 45.75 back in 2016, so he hasn't increased at all (assuming TM's measurement is the same) over the last few years.  I'm not sure on Rory and back to his Nike days could mean different measurement standards.  I don't think he was ever < 45 though so probably not any big change.

 

Dustin Johnson WITB 2016 – GolfWRX

[Howard_Jones]

31 minutes ago, agolf1 said:

For whatever its worth, DJ was at 45.75 back in 2016, so he hasn't increased at all (assuming TM's measurement is the same) over the last few years.  I'm not sure on Rory and back to his Nike days could mean different measurement standards.  I don't think he was ever < 45 though so probably not any big change.

 

Dustin Johnson WITB 2016 – GolfWRX

TM is the only OEM who uses USGA standard, and they introduced it only a few years ago (maybe it was 2018?), and the USGA method makes the SHORTEST clubs, compared to how the others is doing it. Its all in that link.

Potentially, 45.75" has become SHORTER since the driver he played before this is back in 2016, and before TM introduced the USGA standard.

[Titleist_PT23]

12 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

TM is the only OEM who uses USGA standard, and they introduced it only a few years ago (maybe it was 2018?), and the USGA method makes the SHORTEST clubs, compared to how the others is doing it. Its all in that link.

Potentially, 45.75" has become SHORTER since the driver he played before this is back in 2016, and before TM introduced the USGA standard.

Gotcha.  So combined with your other post on DJ theoretical vs actual, he's reached his limit (I get golf is not long drive contest at the range).

 

But when we compare vs. the past (44.5 quoted various places or your 44 vs. standard iron + 0.5 for pro), we still need to consider these players when calculating whether the average has gone up over time.  DJ and Rory are great drivers of the ball but there were great drivers of the ball in the past too (for their era).  I had Spieth at +0.50 too (45 inch driver, standard irons), someone like Fowler may be a negative figure (not sure his specs these days).

 

My sense is that the average has gone up but for all the factors you list I cannot bridge it completely.  I'm too lazy to go through all the PING guys' specs...

[Red4282]

First of all dustin johnson isnt 6’4”. More like 6’3”. Second of all, the getting longer trend has to do with in my opinion recent statistical analysis like strokes gained that basically says distance is such HUGE advantage. Bryson has pushed envelope and has everyone scratching and clawing for everything yard they can muster. If you are static you will be left behind. There is a panic at this, with all the recent rollback push. I do think ams should play shorter driver lengths, but anyone with some skill, low cappers included should push the envelope and go longer. Again, people try it for a bit and fail, but like i said equipment right now isnt suited to go beyond 46”. I really think that will change soon. 

[Titleist_PT23]

9 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

First of all dustin johnson isnt 6’4”. More like 6’3”. Second of all, the getting longer trend has to do with in my opinion recent statistical analysis like strokes gained that basically says distance is such HUGE advantage. Bryson has pushed envelope and has everyone scratching and clawing for everything yard they can muster. If you are static you will be left behind. There is a panic at this, with all the recent rollback push. I do think ams should play shorter driver lengths, but anyone with some skill, low cappers included should push the envelope and go longer. Again, people try it for a bit and fail, but like i said equipment right now isnt suited to go beyond 46”. I really think that will change soon. 

Growth mindset vs. Fixed mindset.  It can't be done until it can.  Some people, even exceptionally skilled people like DJ, may not succeed (as for now, he appears to have hit his limit).  But they are at least thinking about it.  1,000x more than what players thought about it 5-10 years ago.  And maybe with more practice many will be playing longer in the future.  But don't tell that to those that drive looking in the rear-view mirror.

[Red4282]

13 minutes ago, agolf1 said:

Growth mindset vs. Fixed mindset.  It can't be done until it can.  Some people, even exceptionally skilled people like DJ, may not succeed (as for now, he appears to have hit his limit).  But they are at least thinking about it.  1,000x more than what players thought about it 5-10 years ago.  And maybe with more practice many will be playing longer in the future.  But don't tell that to those that drive looking in the rear-view mirror.

Another thing to note is its already happened to an extent on the womens tour, ei, brooke henderson. If they can do it, im not sure why men arent capable or wouldnt want to as well.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Red4282

[Barfolomew]

On 2/23/2021 at 5:49 AM, Myherobobhope said:

Grab the regular weight speed stick and see how much more clubhead speed you have with it than your driver... it’s about as optimized as you can get in terms of aerodynamics... it shouldn’t be that much faster.

 

the whole aerodynamic argument for driver doesn’t make much sense to me... you just aren’t generating that much drag.

 

If its not a big aerodynamic advantage, then weight must be the big influence over swing speed. 

[Jack Pearsall]

as for 435cc drivers, he uses one, a TM M5T. terrific driver, very happy. his driver b4 that was a TM sldr tp, which is 440cc? he hits either driver head, same exact shaft, about the same distances with the sldr tp having a lower, more bullet like flight and the sldr is a noticeably heavier feeling head. He cant recall a heavier modern driver head than the sldr. he had the sldr 460cc head and it felt huge, and his Ping G25 was also huge but feather lite. hated both. felt like he was swinging a child's plastic golf club toy. he wasnt finding the sweet spot consistently with 460cc heads. also, with the slightly smaller head he felt it easier to drop the club a little inside the ball.  

 

the TM sldr tp has been the longest driver he has ever owned. The TM M5T is second longest.

 

probably the longer balls used today is the main reason as his swing speed has no doubt decreased in the last 10 years...

[DallasSteve]

I feel bad for all the people who will pull this thread up expecting to read about 430cc vs. 460cc.  Maybe we should have the title changed???

[storm319]

On 2/25/2021 at 1:34 AM, Howard_Jones said:

TM is the only OEM who uses USGA standard, and they introduced it only a few years ago (maybe it was 2018?), and the USGA method makes the SHORTEST clubs, compared to how the others is doing it. Its all in that link.

Potentially, 45.75" has become SHORTER since the driver he played before this is back in 2016, and before TM introduced the USGA standard.

The real question is whether or not the TM tour van guys are using the same measurement methods as retail production.

[joostin]

On the 430 vs 460 topic, potential advantages could be, like mentioned already, aerodynamics and ease of face closure/manipulation but it depends on head shape and where the CG is located.  Looks and comfort level too, maybe a slight change in tee height or position. 

 

Aerodynamics, like anything else, isn't so straightforward.  The club sees wind resistance at every point in the swing it's in motion.  During the stages of the downswing when we ramp up speed, the clubhead travels through wind at all different orientations, not just face-on like you'd imagine in a wind tunnel.  I've never seen a real apples to apples comparison on wind resistance of different head sizes, but in reality it doesn't seem to have as significant an impact on clubhead speed as club length or the person figuring out how to swing faster.  But hey if turbulators give a slight edge in drag reduction why not go down that path.

 

I do think OEMs will max out MOI with material advances and manufacturing techniques at 460cc, then start trying to max out MOI at lower sizes.

 

To the length debate, yeah there's too much unknown on OEM standard measuring techniques.  You could easily measure 1/4"-3/8" difference on the same club using different methods, like we've had threads on - USGA 60°, no grip, end of grip cap, down center of shaft, lie angle..

 

It's good that Bryson pushes the envelope for others to think about testing waters that they may have never done if not for all the strokes gained and 48" talk.  Whatever works for you - consistent dispersion or that once in a while bomb.  At the same time I'm curious how a 40" 460cc driver weighted like a normal 40" club would fare vs a driving iron 🤔

[Titleist_PT23]

Most people probably saw this but wanted to highlight that Phil just won the PGA Championship with a 47.9 inch driver!  This is 1.9 inches longer than the 46 inch driver he used at the 2006 Masters!!

 

Should everyone go buy a 47.9 inch driver?  No.  Will some still hit the ball best at 44.5?  Sure.

 

But I reiterate my points that:

a) You won't find a better combination if as soon as you pick up a longer club you think you can't possibly hit it well ("Only 44.5 works for me!).  Does Phi have this fixed mindset?  Noooooooooo.  Otherwise he'd still be playing a 43.5 inch dynamic gold 130g shafted driver.

 

b) You cannot conclude what is best based on 10-20 swings.  You must practice with the new club and give it a real try on the course in playing conditions.  If you give up after 1-2 round you didn't give it a serious try.  Did Phil give up after 2 bad rounds and one missed cut?  Nooooooooo.  He kept at it and got it to work.

 

Now I'm sure some people will say "Phil's an outlier" or "Phil has some of the best hand-eye coordination on the planet."  Or Phil has more time to practice than most golfers.  Or Phil has more access to equipment and can tinker more.  Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.  But most people here have lost the battle before it even started because they believe nothing else will work or they give quickly.

 

We actually see this in hybrids or high lofted fairways.  How many people have said "I can't hit hybrids."  Or a 7W.  Tons.  But as soon as those clubs are socially acceptable (i.e. used by players that are better than they are) and they WANT to hit one well suddenly they are able to do so.  It's amazing what a little practice and not giving up after 1-2 rounds will do.

[Stuart_G]

6 hours ago, agolf1 said:

Most people probably saw this but wanted to highlight that Phil just won the PGA Championship with a 47.9 inch driver!

 

Technically he won it with 2 drivers.  The full size longer one, and the shorter mini driver.   So he had a fall back (that was more than a typical fairway head) for the situations when he know the longer one wasn't suitable.   Too bad there are no stat tracking for how often he used each of them.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Titleist_PT23]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Technically he won it with 2 drivers.  The full size longer one, and the shorter mini driver.   So he had a fall back (that was more than a typical fairway head) for the situations when he know the longer one wasn't suitable.   Too bad there are no stat tracking for how often he used each of them.

 

Hahaha.  Not untrue.  Or maybe an oversized overlength "2 wood."😀

 

Playability wise (MOI/forgiveness), do you know if/think the OO is closer to his 3 Deep or a general 460 cc head?

 

Still, it seems like there is some trade-off that "works" for the holes were he can bombs away (with the longer club).

[Stuart_G]

 

 

Quote

Playability wise (MOI/forgiveness), do you know if/think the OO is closer to his 3 Deep or a general 460 cc head?

 

Sorry, no I don't know but it's probably somewhere inbetween.  But remember that type of forgiveness is really only with respect to missing the center of the face and the pro's are a lot better at that than the rest of us.  I don't know but I think his bigger miss is more related to the delivery and resulting variations in the path and face-to-path.  The volume or MOI doesn't really add any help to those types of misses.

 

Quote

Still, it seems like there is some trade-off that "works" for the holes were he can bombs away (with the longer club).

 

I don't think there was any ever a question about that.  The issue for the rest of us tends to be more 1) do you also have something suitable for the other holes that also wont cost you too much distance?  And 2) if not, is adding another club to the bag to fill that role going to hurt you somewhere else in the set or somewhere else on the course?

 

Basically, if you push your driver out farther you've increased the gap between driver and the first fairway.  Is that bigger gap going to hurt you  on the other holes you dont' feel comfortable using the longer driver?  Or can you adjust the gaps in the set to compensate without loosing strokes somewhere else?

 

I don't doubt that for some people the answer will be yes, they can (and no surprise that a pro is in that category).  But there will also be others who might not be able to without loosing any advantage the longer driver gives somewhere else on the course.   That of course depends a lot on both the players ability to manage the longer driver and the details of the course they tend to play.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Stuart_G

[golfjam]

I play a TS4 and it's a matter of preference. I started playing 30+yrs ago and my first set was an used persimmon driver. Much prefer the smaller head, either on my woods or irons. 

[JungleJimbo]

On 5/27/2021 at 6:22 PM, agolf1 said:

Playability wise (MOI/forgiveness), do you know if/think the OO is closer to his 3 Deep or a general 460 cc head?

 
My guess =Phil’s OO could be configured similar to a 2-wood. Incidentally, his Phrankenwood was configured closer to a driver ie 45” shaft length & 250cc

 

Source: https://www.golfwrx.com/85517/in-depth-analysis-mickelsons-phrankenwood/

”As it turns out, the [Phrankenwood] is actually more of a driver. Mickelson said that the Phrankenwood has 8.5 degrees of loft, only about 0.5 degrees more than his Callaway Razr Fit Xtreme driver, and the same Mitsubishi Rayon Fubuki K 70X shaft, at 45 inches.”

 

A standard OO= ~275cc (11.5* or 13.5*) and 43.75” shaft length. (ie size=similar to the Phrankenwood?)

 

Given Phil’s reported driving distances(?) with the OO, at the PGA  ... I’m guessing he shafted the OO to be longer than retail!

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by JungleJimbo