Jump to content

Advantages of 430cc vs 460cc driver


Recommended Posts

8 minutes ago, agolf1 said:

OK, thanks.  I'm still not sure if the change from 44.5 to whatever it is today (I'm not just looking at why DJ's driver is 45.75) is a) many players are playing longer irons/physical build, b) change in OEM measurements, or c) actual increase in playing length (measured apples-to-apples).  I understand the difficulty uncovering everything so we can probably stop (thanks again).

 

But Adam Scott is also interesting.  In the last 5 years or so he's gone ~44.75-45.00 to 46.00.  I don't think he's taller than before (or maybe he shortened his arms?)  All Titleist clubs.  And yes, only 1 person so hard to extrapolate to everyone.  Regards.

 

 


Instead of a debate about a number non of us have, look at theory and reality here...

Theory
Each 0.5" of play length extra is equal to about 2 mph more club speed.
With a smash factor of 1.5, 2 mph can be converted to 3 mph ball speed
We say that 1 mph ball speed is average 2 yards more carry.

Real life
Dusting Johnson went plus 1.25", so if he was like Iron Byron, his club speed should have gone up with 5 mph, and with a PTR of 1.5 that should give 7.5 mph ball speed and 15 yards carry
He only gained 10, meaning he either did not get the extra 5 mph club speed, or he had a drop in PTR value. The article did not clear that out, but if club speed when up with 5, he had a drop in impact quality (impact location) and that will introduce dispersion issues and to a level where its not worth it, since Golf aint long driving, and the lay up for the second shot will be more important than maybe "1 iron shorter in" if thats from a lay up who makes the approach or next lay up harder to make right.

So when we want to judge if a player plays a driver thats good or bad for him we have to look at fairway hits and GIR before and after a change.
 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 102
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

It's pretty simple.   It's really all (well 99%) about the shorter playing length, not the head size. Although for some there is a different mentality in the swing between the driver and 3wd.  Th

Dustin Jophnson the world No #1 at the moment did try a 47.00" but its not beneficial when a driver like that messes up his swing and timing for the rest of the bag.   Sbarbaro revealed that th

I’ve been telling my wife this for years...

Posted Images

For whatever its worth, DJ was at 45.75 back in 2016, so he hasn't increased at all (assuming TM's measurement is the same) over the last few years.  I'm not sure on Rory and back to his Nike days could mean different measurement standards.  I don't think he was ever < 45 though so probably not any big change.

 

Dustin Johnson WITB 2016 – GolfWRX

Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, agolf1 said:

For whatever its worth, DJ was at 45.75 back in 2016, so he hasn't increased at all (assuming TM's measurement is the same) over the last few years.  I'm not sure on Rory and back to his Nike days could mean different measurement standards.  I don't think he was ever < 45 though so probably not any big change.

 

Dustin Johnson WITB 2016 – GolfWRX


TM is the only OEM who uses USGA standard, and they introduced it only a few years ago (maybe it was 2018?), and the USGA method makes the SHORTEST clubs, compared to how the others is doing it. Its all in that link.

Potentially, 45.75" has become SHORTER since the driver he played before this is back in 2016, and before TM introduced the USGA standard.

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:


TM is the only OEM who uses USGA standard, and they introduced it only a few years ago (maybe it was 2018?), and the USGA method makes the SHORTEST clubs, compared to how the others is doing it. Its all in that link.

Potentially, 45.75" has become SHORTER since the driver he played before this is back in 2016, and before TM introduced the USGA standard.

Gotcha.  So combined with your other post on DJ theoretical vs actual, he's reached his limit (I get golf is not long drive contest at the range).

 

But when we compare vs. the past (44.5 quoted various places or your 44 vs. standard iron + 0.5 for pro), we still need to consider these players when calculating whether the average has gone up over time.  DJ and Rory are great drivers of the ball but there were great drivers of the ball in the past too (for their era).  I had Spieth at +0.50 too (45 inch driver, standard irons), someone like Fowler may be a negative figure (not sure his specs these days).

 

My sense is that the average has gone up but for all the factors you list I cannot bridge it completely.  I'm too lazy to go through all the PING guys' specs...

Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all dustin johnson isnt 6’4”. More like 6’3”. Second of all, the getting longer trend has to do with in my opinion recent statistical analysis like strokes gained that basically says distance is such HUGE advantage. Bryson has pushed envelope and has everyone scratching and clawing for everything yard they can muster. If you are static you will be left behind. There is a panic at this, with all the recent rollback push. I do think ams should play shorter driver lengths, but anyone with some skill, low cappers included should push the envelope and go longer. Again, people try it for a bit and fail, but like i said equipment right now isnt suited to go beyond 46”. I really think that will change soon. 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

First of all dustin johnson isnt 6’4”. More like 6’3”. Second of all, the getting longer trend has to do with in my opinion recent statistical analysis like strokes gained that basically says distance is such HUGE advantage. Bryson has pushed envelope and has everyone scratching and clawing for everything yard they can muster. If you are static you will be left behind. There is a panic at this, with all the recent rollback push. I do think ams should play shorter driver lengths, but anyone with some skill, low cappers included should push the envelope and go longer. Again, people try it for a bit and fail, but like i said equipment right now isnt suited to go beyond 46”. I really think that will change soon. 

Growth mindset vs. Fixed mindset.  It can't be done until it can.  Some people, even exceptionally skilled people like DJ, may not succeed (as for now, he appears to have hit his limit).  But they are at least thinking about it.  1,000x more than what players thought about it 5-10 years ago.  And maybe with more practice many will be playing longer in the future.  But don't tell that to those that drive looking in the rear-view mirror.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, agolf1 said:

Growth mindset vs. Fixed mindset.  It can't be done until it can.  Some people, even exceptionally skilled people like DJ, may not succeed (as for now, he appears to have hit his limit).  But they are at least thinking about it.  1,000x more than what players thought about it 5-10 years ago.  And maybe with more practice many will be playing longer in the future.  But don't tell that to those that drive looking in the rear-view mirror.

Another thing to note is its already happened to an extent on the womens tour, ei, brooke henderson. If they can do it, im not sure why men arent capable or wouldnt want to as well.

Edited by Red4282
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/23/2021 at 5:49 AM, Myherobobhope said:

Grab the regular weight speed stick and see how much more clubhead speed you have with it than your driver... it’s about as optimized as you can get in terms of aerodynamics... it shouldn’t be that much faster.

 

the whole aerodynamic argument for driver doesn’t make much sense to me... you just aren’t generating that much drag.

 

If its not a big aerodynamic advantage, then weight must be the big influence over swing speed. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

as for 435cc drivers, he uses one, a TM M5T. terrific driver, very happy. his driver b4 that was a TM sldr tp, which is 440cc? he hits either driver head, same exact shaft, about the same distances with the sldr tp having a lower, more bullet like flight and the sldr is a noticeably heavier feeling head. He cant recall a heavier modern driver head than the sldr. he had the sldr 460cc head and it felt huge, and his Ping G25 was also huge but feather lite. hated both. felt like he was swinging a child's plastic golf club toy. he wasnt finding the sweet spot consistently with 460cc heads. also, with the slightly smaller head he felt it easier to drop the club a little inside the ball.  

 

the TM sldr tp has been the longest driver he has ever owned. The TM M5T is second longest.

 

probably the longer balls used today is the main reason as his swing speed has no doubt decreased in the last 10 years...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Head with High MOI are by definition harder to rotate, i.e., harder to close in the downswing.

 

You’d be surprised at now much drag affect the speed of an object.  When you ride a bike at just 15 mph 70% of your energy is needed just to overcome drag.  In most sports a lot of attention is given to reducing drag.  In golf, the opposite.  Does it make a difference?  I might not at 85 mph but really kill you at 120.

 

Longer clubs, ceteris park is, are just harder to control.  Period. For anybody.  Any time.  No bias, just fact.  Supposedly, the forgiving features of modern clubs make up for the loss of control, with more distance added.

 

I don’t see it with the slicers I watch every day.  For them all the tech since say 1990 doesn’t mean anything.  They still hit it short and right in the same places they did at least 15 years ago when I first played on the course in my neighborhood.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/25/2021 at 1:34 AM, Howard_Jones said:


TM is the only OEM who uses USGA standard, and they introduced it only a few years ago (maybe it was 2018?), and the USGA method makes the SHORTEST clubs, compared to how the others is doing it. Its all in that link.

Potentially, 45.75" has become SHORTER since the driver he played before this is back in 2016, and before TM introduced the USGA standard.


The real question is whether or not the TM tour van guys are using the same measurement methods as retail production.

Link to post
Share on other sites

On the 430 vs 460 topic, potential advantages could be, like mentioned already, aerodynamics and ease of face closure/manipulation but it depends on head shape and where the CG is located.  Looks and comfort level too, maybe a slight change in tee height or position. 

 

Aerodynamics, like anything else, isn't so straightforward.  The club sees wind resistance at every point in the swing it's in motion.  During the stages of the downswing when we ramp up speed, the clubhead travels through wind at all different orientations, not just face-on like you'd imagine in a wind tunnel.  I've never seen a real apples to apples comparison on wind resistance of different head sizes, but in reality it doesn't seem to have as significant an impact on clubhead speed as club length or the person figuring out how to swing faster.  But hey if turbulators give a slight edge in drag reduction why not go down that path.

 

I do think OEMs will max out MOI with material advances and manufacturing techniques at 460cc, then start trying to max out MOI at lower sizes.

 

To the length debate, yeah there's too much unknown on OEM standard measuring techniques.  You could easily measure 1/4"-3/8" difference on the same club using different methods, like we've had threads on - USGA 60°, no grip, end of grip cap, down center of shaft, lie angle..

 

It's good that Bryson pushes the envelope for others to think about testing waters that they may have never done if not for all the strokes gained and 48" talk.  Whatever works for you - consistent dispersion or that once in a while bomb.  At the same time I'm curious how a 40" 460cc driver weighted like a normal 40" club would fare vs a driving iron 🤔

D Adams XTD, 70M4X 3W TEE CBX, HZBk75S 5W Titleist 915F, D+80X

3I Srixon Z 545 4H Adams S 9031 6I-PW Mizuno MP-54, C Taper Lite X

GW Nike VPC, Tour V X 54 60 Cleveland CBX, DG S300 Cure CX3

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Our picks

    • 2021 WGC Workday Championship @ The Concession Photos- Links & Discussion (UpDaTeD)
      Please post any questions or comments here.
       
      Links...
       
      2021 WGC Workday Championship - Tuesday #1
      2021 WGC Workday Championship - Tuesday #2
      2021 WGC Workday Championship - Tuesday #3
      2021 WGC Workday Championship - Tuesday #4
      2021 WGC Workday Championship - Tuesday #5
      2021 WGC Workday Championship - Tuesday #6
      Cameron Smith's Cameron 11.5 putter - 2021 WGC Workday Championship
      Cameron putter 2021 WGC Workday Championship
      2021 Ping putters - 2021 WGC Workday Championship
      Rory wearing new Nike Tour Victory II shoes - 2021 WGC Workday Championship
      Odyssey putters - 2021 WGC Workday Championship
       
      • 60 replies
    • 2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - discussion
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #1
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #2
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #3
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #4
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #5
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #6
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #7
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #8
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #9

      Ryan Moore with Axis 1 putter @ 2021 AT&T PB
       
       
       
      Please post any questions and comments here
      • 59 replies
    • 2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion
      General galleries
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #1
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #2
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #3
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #4
      Monday Qualifier for Waste Management Open 
      Special galleries
       
      Ping PLD putters - 2021 WMPO Scott Brown with MMT graphite shafts in his ProTo Concept irons - 2021 WMPO TaylorMade putter cover from 2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open New Srixon golf balls - 2021 WMPO Bettinardi putters & cover - 2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open Cameron putters -2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open Piretti putters -2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open Cameron mallets - 2021 WMPO Odyssey 2-ball Ten - 2021 WMPO  
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
      Jason Day's Bag...
        • Like
      • 21 replies
    • 2021 FARMERS WITB & Equipment Photos- Links and comments
      We are back on the ground at the 2021 Farmers PGA Tour event. Please add you comments in this thread. Here are links to all the galleries:
       
      Special galleries:
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #1
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #2
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #3
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #4
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #5
       
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #6
       
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #7
       
      Cameron putters - Farmers 2021
       
      Odyssey 2-ball Ten - Farmers 2021
       
      Project X Even Flow RipTide MX & LX proto shafts - Framers 2021
       
      TaylorMade putter cover for Torrey Pines - Farmers 2021
       
      Sling Shot training aid - Farmers 2021
       
       
      • 47 replies
    • 2021 American Express WITB & Equipment Photos- Links and comments
      We are back on the ground at the American Express PGA event.
       
      Here are links to all the galleries:
       
      Cameron putters - 2021 American Express
      PXG Gen 4 prototype drivers - new putters
      UST Maymiya LinQ shafts - American Express 2021
      Mitsubishi Kaili & MMT shafts - American Express 2021
      Titleist TSi 2 & TSi 3 hybrids - American Express 2021
      TaylorMade putter cover for Palm Springs/Palm Desert - American Express
      New Aldila Synergy, Ascent & prototype shafts - American Express 2021
      Callaway Apex Pro iron, Epic Driver and fairway, Apex iron & hybrid - American Express 2021
      New Perfect Practice training aids - American Express 2021
      New KBS prototype shafts - American Express 2021
       
        • Like
      • 18 replies

×
×
  • Create New...