Loft Bending on MP 20 HMB

[asofine]

Hi all,

 

This evening I purchased a used set (5-PW) of Mizuno HMBs. I'm coming from JPX 900 Forged. My spec is 2° flat. In a quest to cheat my way to a bit more distance with the JPXes, I had them bent 2° strong, as well. 

 

I am wondering whether to bend the HMBs strong as well, and if so, by how much. The HMBs are lofted 1° weaker than the stock lofts on the 900s, so to "even" the lofts I'd have to bend them 3° strong. I'm not hugely worried about this from a launch perspective (900s launched quite low from the factory, and I had them paired with a shaft that was too stiff for me, but nonetheless my distance, spin, etc. with them was game-able).

 

I am, however, curious about whether adjusting lofts by this degree (in combination with the adjustment to the lie) will cause major problems with regards to bounce...or other things I'm not knowledgable enough to even know about 😛

 

Any help would be much appreciated!

Edited February 23, 2021 by asofine

[B.Easy]

I don't believe bending them flat would be a problem, but bending them 3 strong could be a big one. They are a hollow body design.  I'd call Mizuno and check to be sure, or send them to them to modify safely.  Do they still do that?  Strengthening the lofts by 3 would increase offset significantly and change the way the club interacts with the ground.  You'd be reducing the bounce and rotating the leading edge forward.  Personally, I'm not a huge fan of bending clubs strong. I hate looking at and playing clubs with anything more than just a little offset.  

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

Are you referring to the MP20 HMBs? 

I think they are the same club as the JDM current model Mizuno Pro Fli-Hi, and the Mizuno website says with those, the lies can be adjusted up or down by as much as 4*. Nothing about adjusting the loft, though if the lie can be adjusted, I can't see any reason why the loft can't be either.

As the above poster said, best check with Mizuno first.

[asofine]

^^ Thanks. I understand based on some research that from a physics standpoint the irons can be bent as described. I'm curious about potential negative effects of doing this that may not occur to me. I learned (thanks to B. Easy) that this will add offset which I'm ok with. I'm also curious whether the bounce will be so negatively impacted as to make this a bad idea. Also, with driver, for instance, I know that reducing loft actually opens the face slightly (counter intuitively). Is this the case with irons as well? Are there other implications I'm unaware of?

Edited February 23, 2021 by asofine

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

Strengthening the loft will reduce bounce. I think it's as simple as strengthening one degree removes one degree of bounce, though you might want to check that in the Tech forum. 

I've found that with irons, weakening the loft makes the face appear more open, so I'd expect the opposite to be true when strengthening in the loft, but unless you have a very discerning eye, I doubt you'll notice the difference of a degree or so.

[Tree Levino]

I would absolutely not bend those clubs even two degrees strong. Loft to bounce ratio is 1:1 as @No_Catchy_Nickname mentioned. So, even two strong you'll be going negative bounce on the 4 and 5, 0 on the 6, 1 on the 7 - that is simply not playable to me. Further, I had a couple of these long irons in a combo with the MB 6-PW and really disliked them because of how wide the soles are mixed with low bounce. They always wanted to catch through the ball. If you want to increase distance increase your swing speed, improve mechanics, and lower your dynamic loft at impact rather than statically bending them stronger. 

 

tgw.com/mizuno-mens-mp-20-hmb-irons

[asofine]

Thanks for all of the feedback.

 

I spoke with the Pro at my club and I think for now I'll just adjust the lie angles. As soon as our grass range re-opens (probably late-March) we'll do some more testing and determine if we want to adjust lofts.

[Cheesehead42]

HMBs and Forged are night and day difference in terms of ball speed. Hit them first and adjust from there. Don't get hung up in a spec sheet. There's a decent chance you may weaken them more to get them same distance as the forged with the same club.

 

Adjust them to get a distance, not a loft. 

[asofine]

2 minutes ago, Cheesehead42 said:

HMBs and Forged are night and day difference in terms of ball speed. Hit them first and adjust from there. Don't get hung up in a spec sheet. There's a decent chance you may weaken them more to get them same distance as the forged with the same club.

 

Adjust them to get a distance, not a loft. 

 

This is sound advice, thanks.

 

I'm a total head case when it comes to this distance stuff for reasons I'll explain. And yes, I know the solution is to get lessons/practice, but frankly I hate practicing equally as much as I LOVE playing, so I just don't think it's in me to go the lesson/practice route.

 

For context, here's an overview of my very strange game. I'm in Vancouver, Canada and finished the 2020 season at a 5.4 HC, though I usually hover between 6-8. I have an exceptionally tidy short game, but my full swing is garbage and my distances are pathetic. My driver swing speed is ~94-99. I don't know my iron swing speeds. 

 

Here's a breakdown of my distances here at sea level (winter distance in brackets):

 

Driver 11.25°: 235-250 (225)

4 Wood 16.5° - 220 (210)

3 Hybrid 19° - 200 (190)

4 Hybrid 22° - 185 (175)

5 Iron 22° - 170 (160)

6 Iron 25° - 160 (150)

7 Iron 29° - 145 (140)

8 Iron 33° - 130 (125)

9 Iron 38° - 120 (110)

PW 43° - 110 (100)

 

These iron lofts are all 2° stronger than the stock lofts on my JPX 900s. But I have them mated with Aerotech Steelfiber i95 stiff flex shafts, which I understand are too stiff for me and may be negatively impacting my already putrid distances.

 

Anyway, I play my course from the Blues in the Summer (6,700 yards) and whites in the winter (6,300 yards). I really struggle on our 400+ yard Par 4s, often hitting long irons or hybrids into our *exceptionally small* greens. I only average 7-8 GIRs so really rely on getting up/down a ton and playing our (5) Par 5s at even or under par.  I'm stubbornly trying to tweak around with equipment instead of doing the smart thing and actually improving at golf 😛

[mgoblue83]

Do you find that the bottom of your bag as a hard time staying in the air and carrying a consistent distance? Your lofts are so strong and combined with a slow swing speed I don't see how the ball can stay in the air or stop on the green.

 

I've seen a lot of slow speed players actually benefit from more loft because they gain more consistent and playable carry distances even if their total distances are slightly less. 

 

It's the same reason you would fit a slow speed player into a 12 degree driver instead of a 7.5 degree. 

[asofine]

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

Do you find that the bottom of your bag as a hard time staying in the air and carrying a consistent distance? Your lofts are so strong and combined with a slow swing speed I don't see how the ball can stay in the air or stop on the green.

 

I've seen a lot of slow speed players actually benefit from more loft because they gain more consistent and playable carry distances even if their total distances are slightly less. 

 

It's the same reason you would fit a slow speed player into a 12 degree driver instead of a 7.5 degree. 

 

 

Interesting point. I decided to schedule a Trackman session with my club pro with so that we can let the numbers dictate what we do rather than my half-cocked theories.

 

With regards to your question, it's difficult to answer. A former pattern of mine was to flip at the ball, so if anything I suffered from having too *much* height on my short irons. I seemed to work that out, and today I think the ball flight on my 9/PW is reasonable. With that said, sometimes I notice these two clubs merging a bit distance-wise.

[mgoblue83]

16 hours ago, asofine said:

Interesting point. I decided to schedule a Trackman session with my club pro with so that we can let the numbers dictate what we do rather than my half-cocked theories.

 

With regards to your question, it's difficult to answer. A former pattern of mine was to flip at the ball, so if anything I suffered from having too *much* height on my short irons. I seemed to work that out, and today I think the ball flight on my 9/PW is reasonable. With that said, sometimes I notice these two clubs merging a bit distance-wise.

 Yeah those clubs still have enough loft to be playable at any speed. My concern was that having 5 clubs within 10 degrees of one another 19-29 degrees with a slow swing speed seems like a giant black hole in your bag where most of your clubs are going similar distances and none of them have the height or spin required to play quality golf. The lofts on your irons are so strong that you really won't have much use for a 5 or 6 iron at your swing speed. Ego aside, I would drop those clubs and add another hybrid to replace them. I'd also look at a 5w instead of your 19 degree hybrid as the 5w should flight much higher and softer for that 200 yard range into the par 4's you were talking about. 

 

I'd look at a setup like this:

Driver

4-wood

19 degree 5 wood

22 degree hybrid

26 degree hybrid

7i (at 29 degrees this is basically a 5 iron - I play 28 degree 5 iron and 32 degree 6 iron)

8i

9i

pw

+ Extra wedges

[asofine]

2 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

 Yeah those clubs still have enough loft to be playable at any speed. My concern was that having 5 clubs within 10 degrees of one another 19-29 degrees with a slow swing speed seems like a giant black hole in your bag where most of your clubs are going similar distances and none of them have the height or spin required to play quality golf. The lofts on your irons are so strong that you really won't have much use for a 5 or 6 iron at your swing speed. Ego aside, I would drop those clubs and add another hybrid to replace them. I'd also look at a 5w instead of your 19 degree hybrid as the 5w should flight much higher and softer for that 200 yard range into the par 4's you were talking about. 

 

I'd look at a setup like this:

Driver

4-wood

19 degree 5 wood

22 degree hybrid

26 degree hybrid

7i (at 29 degrees this is basically a 5 iron - I play 28 degree 5 iron and 32 degree 6 iron)

8i

9i

pw

+ Extra wedges

 

Thanks!

 

I actually previously played a 27 degree hybrid (as a 170 club instead of a 5 iron). But the miss with it was a scary hook and I fell out of love with it. I think psychologically when I looked down on a hybrid with that much loft, something in my brain would make me put a different swing on it. I started hitting the 5 iron decently enough that I put it back in the bag. If I wasn't such a head case with the 27° hybrid I'd still be playing it.

 

The breakdown you listed makes sense, but I'm not sure whether I'll continue playing the strong lofts. In the set of HMBs I just picked up, the 7 iron is 32°, the 6 iron is 28°, and the 5 iron is 25°.

 

The higher lofted 5 wood is an interesting idea, as it may indeed allow me to come into greens from 200 with more stopping power than my hybrid. My 16.5° wood and my 19° hybrid are already close-ish in distance, but I do like having the option of playing either one when I'm ~200 out, as some lies suit my eye for either club. Maybe I'll give a 5 wood a whack and see how/whether I like it.

Edited February 24, 2021 by asofine

[Hammer22]

Played the HMB's last year and loved them, but even with the DG X100, still hit them higher than what I liked. Went 1° strong in loft with zero issues. I also play mine 2° upright if it matters. Even with the 5-iron now being at 0° bounce, I noticed nothing detrimental. Distances and ball flight are perfect now. That all said, my new set is the JPX921 Forged, but I like the HMB's so much still that I kept them for a second/spare set.

[asofine]

Snuck in 18 today and got to try the HMBs. I thought they felt fantastic.

 

It was amazing to see just how high they launched the ball (I have NS Pro 950GH R flex shafts). A night and day difference from my JPX 900s with Aerotech Steelfiber stiff shafts. It actually seemed like they were launching *too* high, which is (again) making me think that I could/should bend them a degree or two strong. I'm still waiting to get out on Trackman with my club pro so we can decide. 

 

Sidebar: I've always been skeptical when reading about the supposed different characteristics of club heads/shafts. I mean, sure, an x-stiff staff is going to play different than a ladies flex. And sure, muscle backs are going to be very different than super game improvement clubs. But I was dubious when reading about the supposed difference between similar-ish clubs/shafts. My experience with the HMBs has changed my mind. They just launch the ball in a TOTALLY different way than my JPXes with Steelfiber stiffs. The peak height of my 5 iron shots today were peaking at the same height as my 8 iron with my last set. It was really interesting to see.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by asofine