ADVICE? Instructor Insists Bowed Wrist Is Wrong, Must Cup

[driveandputtmachine]

I am not an instructor of any kind, and I am a simple man.  That being said I like explanations.

 

The ball only cares about impact position.  If a coach has me working on something that doesn't either 

A. Make my impact position better

B. Make my best impact position more repeatable

 

They can pound sand.  Whether they want me laid off, across the plane, cupper or bowed, upright or flat.  To me in my little brain NONE of that matters.  I have found one teacher that I explain this too and how I look at things and I still call him or send him video (since he is Myrtle Beach and I am in Atlanta) All the other teachers I have talked to spout crap like it's a process or this or that, or my swing needs to hit these positions.  I ask how that affects my impact position and they all get a dumb look on their face.

 

Not to say you look at things the way I do, but to say you need some ideas in your head of what you want to achieve and why, then find a coach/teacher that will work with you within your parameters, not the other way around.  If you are always second guessing you will NEVER mesh and your ball striking will never get better.

[nsxguy]

21 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

Ya ok I would find a new coach these are both really bad points. How does DJ hit the ball? 

 

Are you hitting the ball at the top of the backswing? The position of the wrist at P4 is different than at impact. The injury stuff is half cringeworthy/half hilarious. 

 

Hmmmmm, well, I don't know.

 

If I just take my wrist and bow it as much as I can I certainly feel some stretching/strain at my wrist at the back of my hand.

 

If I cup my wrist as far as I can I don't feel nearly as much strain on the underside of the wrist.

 

So, intuitively, I guess at impact I'd rather be slightly cupped than slightly bowed. Flat would seem to be ideal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Krt22]

15 minutes ago, glk said:

You have bigger fish to fry - like practically zero hip turn - you need to address pivot before worrying about wrist conditions at this point.

Agreed, could be the camera angle but setup is a bit wonky as well.

 

OP, your self diagnosis that your BS is too long is also quite a bit off IMHO.

[Gsea]

3 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

OP, your self diagnosis that your BS is too long is also quite a bit off IMHO.

agree, actually a short BS, don't even get to a pt were a cupped or bowed wrist completely happens.

[ElMacho]

17 minutes ago, glk said:

You have bigger fish to fry - like practically zero hip turn - you need to address pivot before worrying about wrist conditions at this point.

Absolutely agree, he definitely tried to get my lower body started sooner.

[MonteScheinblum]

I was going to chime in with an example of not bowing the wrist being bad advice.

 

“For example, if the backswing is very short, telling someone to cup their wrist is pretty bad advice.  You don’t have time to go cup/bow and release properly and hit the ball straight.”

 

Your backswing is very short because of no hip turn and then the arms get too far across the chest.

 

If you increased vertical hinge, which I would find necessary to improve arm to chest angles, that would change the wrist angles.

 

More hip turn with better hip position and more vertical wrist hinge.
 

 

[Krt22]

10 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Hmmmmm, well, I don't know.

 

If I just take my wrist and bow it as much as I can I certainly feel some stretching/strain at my wrist at the back of my hand.

 

If I cup my wrist as far as I can I don't feel nearly as much strain on the underside of the wrist.

 

So, intuitively, I guess at impact I'd rather be slightly cupped than slightly bowed. Flat would seem to be ideal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

That wasn't the main point, the point is what happens at P4 is not indicative of what will happen at impact. Depending on the conditions at P4, your wrist conditions change dynamically as you come to impact. The static positions are less important than understanding the dynamics

[nsxguy]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

That wasn't the main point, the point is what happens at P4 is not indicative of what will happen at impact. Depending on the conditions at P4, your wrist conditions change dynamically as you come to impact. The static positions are less important than understanding the dynamics

 

Yes but I was quoting the gentleman who was commenting on the injury aspect of hitting it "thick", which I assume meant "fat", not necessarily the transition from P4 to impact. 

[Krt22]

Just now, nsxguy said:

 

Yes but I was quoting the gentleman who was commenting on the injury aspect of hitting it "thick", which I assume meant "fat", not necessarily the transition from P4 to impact. 

I get that, but the instructor was saying the issue is if it's too bowed at P4, it can lead to injury if you hit it fat (ie at impact). Just because it's bowed at the top, doesn't mean it will be bowed at impact.

[Gsea]

13 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I was going to chime in with an example of not bowing the wrist being bad advice.

 

“For example, if the backswing is very short, telling someone to cup their wrist is pretty bad advice.  You don’t have time to go cup/bow and release properly and hit the ball straight.”

 

Your backswing is very short because of no hip turn and then the arms get too far across the chest.

 

If you increased vertical hinge, which I would find necessary to improve arm to chest angles, that would change the wrist angles.

 

More hip turn with better hip position and more vertical wrist hinge.
 

 

Exactly too short of bs to do anything with the wrist.

[Poolparty]

More hip turn

 

I wish I could give you some of mine

[cwilk]

Another of my opinions, but this is what too long looks like (or something similar):

 

 

I didn't go looking for a picture of Monte specifically, but it was like the third picture in a Google image search of "Golf backswing too long".

[ElMacho]

3 minutes ago, Poolparty said:

More hip turn

 

I wish I could give you some of mine

I'm so inconsistent, unfortunately. This is one of the only few swings I've kept on my phone recently, but when he showed me yesterday, it looked like I was twisting way too far.

[golfsticks]

1 hour ago, glk said:

You have bigger fish to fry - like practically zero hip turn - you need to address pivot before worrying about wrist conditions at this point.

 

Much bigger fish to fry, several issues. 

[MonteScheinblum]

8 minutes ago, Poolparty said:

More hip turn

 

I wish I could give you some of mine

 

9 minutes ago, Poolparty said:

More hip turn

 

I wish I could give you some of mine

Really no such thing as too much hip turn, only poorly rotated. People with too much hip turn are too flat, foot pressures in wrong place, etc.

[golfarb1]

Tour data information  of 7 pros is included with the “Hackmotion sensor”.

Although there are variations in  the amount of wrist extension and flexion among these pros , two data points are consistent with all of them. 

. EVERY pro has their lead wrist in extension at the top. Some had increased  the amount of lead wrist extension  slightly from setup to the top , while some  have decreased it a small amount . 

All of the pros have flexed their lead wrist  considerably from the top  to impact , although some still had a slight amount of lead wrist extension at impact.

I understand that this is a small sample and that Dustin Johnson  and Jon Rahm have had great success with a bowed wrist at the top, but it is probably a mistake for most amateurs to try to achieve a flexed wrist at the top.

[golfarb1]

Last line should be “bowed wrist at the top”.

[jomatty]

I’d listen to Monty...he is far and away the most knowledgeable on this thread.

that said, if I was building my golf swing I would definitely go with as much of a bowed wrist/square club face as I can comforatable handle with a strong rotation through the ball.  That’s just me though, but it just seems like a good way to approach the golf swing.  Consider this more making conversation than advice though...also I do not have a lot of bow in my wrist at top of backswings.  I don’t have the energy to try to get comforatable with it.

[ElMacho]

7 hours ago, Golfah said:

 

This was hilarious!

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Last line should be “bowed wrist at the top”.

 

So change it then,,,,,,,,,,

[coops]

12 hours ago, glk said:

You have bigger fish to fry - like practically zero hip turn - you need to address pivot before worrying about wrist conditions at this point.

 

And before worrying about flat/cupped (and where does he expect you to be cupped... top of backswing or ?)... I'd have thought the instructor may have tried to sort out your grip. Looks like you've got both thumbs on top of the grip.

 

 

vs

 

 

[IPA4Me]

I always strive to understand "why" - leads to a better understanding of my game and others.

[ElMacho]

20 hours ago, coops said:

 

And before worrying about flat/cupped (and where does he expect you to be cupped... top of backswing or ?)... I'd have thought the instructor may have tried to sort out your grip. Looks like you've got both thumbs on top of the grip.

 

 

vs

 

 

Thank you! I tried changing the right hand today and it seemed to really help loosen my wrists.

Edited February 28, 2021 by ElMacho

[LeftDaddy]

I’d say there is a reason to be flexed instead of extended, which is to have a slightly shut clubface to encourage more rotation through the ball. I have a natural cupping of my lead wrist and my instructors have been trying to get me to change it for years. 
 

You can “correct “ a cupped wrist by the motorcycle move, but I wouldn’t recommend it. And your grip is so weak that cupping your lead wrist would be disastrous to you in the short term. 
 

Agree with others that you have much bigger fish to fry than cupped or bowed wrist. Grip needs to be stronger, and you need to rotate much better (among other things). 

[MonteScheinblum]

4 hours ago, ElMacho said:

Thank you! I tried changing the right hand today and it seemed to really help loosen my wrists.

The changing of the grip is likely good advice, but if you don’t address the hip movement issue, you’re stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime.

[coops]

Certainly with Monte on the lack of hip turn...

I'd like to hear how the OP ended up with those hips that locked up and immobile.

Grab a tennis racket and swing it, and does elMacho's hips not turn then either? Curious how they've ended up so 'stuck' in place in the backswing.

 

Maybe worth taking a look at the Zen golf mechanic videos on Youtube to get a sense of freedom in the hips... and see if he can get himself made one of those 'wobble boards'...?

 

And take a look at Malaska's video on hip turn - using footwork, not wrenching the hips around with your core... can practice walking back swinging without a ball just to feel the hips moving.

 

[A.Princey]

On 2/26/2021 at 11:03 AM, glk said:

You have bigger fish to fry - like practically zero hip turn - you need to address pivot before worrying about wrist conditions at this point.

Maybe he's just emulating the no-turn-cast, flavor of the day??? Lol

[TheDeanAbides]

23 minutes ago, A.Princey said:

Maybe he's just emulating the no-turn-cast, flavor of the day??? Lol

NTC does not advocate restricting the hip turn turn. 

[ElMacho]

5 hours ago, A.Princey said:

Maybe he's just emulating the no-turn-cast, flavor of the day??? Lol

I

 

5 hours ago, coops said:

Certainly with Monte on the lack of hip turn...

I'd like to hear how the OP ended up with those hips that locked up and immobile.

Grab a tennis racket and swing it, and does elMacho's hips not turn then either? Curious how they've ended up so 'stuck' in place in the backswing.

 

Maybe worth taking a look at the Zen golf mechanic videos on Youtube to get a sense of freedom in the hips... and see if he can get himself made one of those 'wobble boards'...?

 

And take a look at Malaska's video on hip turn - using footwork, not wrenching the hips around with your core... can practice walking back swinging without a ball just to feel the hips moving.

 

I’m on baby duty today, but I’ll try my best to incorporate this advice tomorrow. I’ll report back by Tuesday. Thanks again to everyone.

[DaveLeeNC]

Just a general comment. I have heard for years (make that decades) that a bowed left wrist requires a lot of turn to avoid hitting the ball with a shut clubface. I believed it. 

 

More recently I have gone to a bowed left wrist around the top of the swing.  I do not have a ton of rotation (before or after) and, for me, this does NOT lead to a shut clubface at impact. It DOES lead to less movement required to get square and I found that 'this just happened as if my magic'. I did not have to make a conscious adjustment. Literally 'it just happened' (FWIW, I was following Monte S.'s NTC videos). 

 

YMMV. 

 

dave

Edited February 28, 2021 by DaveLeeNC