ADVICE? Instructor Insists Bowed Wrist Is Wrong, Must Cup

[golfsticks]

Swaying and reversing, have instructor work on that piece first, no need going any further until you learn how to load with a proper pivot.  Many ways to approach, has instructor even attempted to correct?

[BogeyBrian]

2 hours ago, ElMacho said:

and PW...

IMG_4791.mov 24.16 MB · 1 download

Look at your right foot in your backswing...the inside of of your foot is literally off the ground..your dead from there.. your pressure should be starting to center when your arm is parallel in the backswing..you shouldn't let the pressure shift to outside the middle of your right foot 

Edited March 16, 2021 by BogeyBrian

[ElMacho]

16 minutes ago, BogeyBrian said:

Look at your right foot in your backswing...the inside of of your foot is literally off the ground..your dead from there.. your pressure should be starting to center when your arm is parallel in the backswing..you shouldn't let the pressure shift to outside the middle of your right foot 

I was surprised to read this, because I've been working on that. I probably shouldn't have uploaded the PW. I was trying to hit it to the 175 target (and coming up short.) If you still have time to take a look, I'd love your feedback on the driver or 2 iron that I shared.

[ElMacho]

.

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by ElMacho

[ElMacho]

1 hour ago, golfsticks said:

Swaying and reversing, have instructor work on that piece first, no need going any further until you learn how to load with a proper pivot.  Many ways to approach, has instructor even attempted to correct?

My instructor advocates less hip rotation. He says from the position I was getting at the top of the swing, I was too far to get around to a good impact position. I've worked on it, but am getting a lot of mixed signals. Monte suggests more hip rotation. Today's swing felt good and the results were great. I want to be sure I understand exactly what I'm trying to achieve as I make more changes. From the driver and 2-iron I've shown, is the "over sway" during the backswing or downswing?

[Krt22]

Pivot is all wonky.

[TheDeanAbides]

Look at this and then go read this post from Monte...

 

 

[ElMacho]

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Look at this and then go read this post from Monte...

 

 

Thank you! I’m going to work on this.

[golfsticks]

9 hours ago, ElMacho said:

My instructor advocates less hip rotation. He says from the position I was getting at the top of the swing, I was too far to get around to a good impact position. I've worked on it, but am getting a lot of mixed signals. Monte suggests more hip rotation. Today's swing felt good and the results were great. I want to be sure I understand exactly what I'm trying to achieve as I make more changes. From the driver and 2-iron I've shown, is the "over sway" during the backswing or downswing?

 

Understandable if an instructor, seeing a sway in the backswing,  might comment, albeit incorrectly, about having less, or tighter,  pelvic rotation as it would be for another instructor to say more rotation is needed due to the lack thereof from a form standpoint.    It's not necessarily a matter, in the current discussion,  of 'how much' as it is 'how'.  The how matters.   There is probably only about 4-5 inches of arc rotation going back, measured off the lead hip joint,  and how it moves is real important.   

[TheDeanAbides]

45 minutes ago, ElMacho said:

Thank you! I’m going to work on this.

This is going to feel weird as hell to you, but it'll fix so many of your other issues, so do lots of slow reps to feel it before even trying to hit a ball.

[mocokid]

I've played with a cupped wrist when my grip was 3 knuckles, had great lag but lot's of flipping.  I now am back to 2 knuckles, and my wrist is more square, I feel I can release the club more aggressively, and get better shaft lean, maybe a little bowed at impact.  And less hooking !!

Edited March 20, 2021 by mocokid
error

[chigolfer1]

On 3/15/2021 at 9:55 PM, ElMacho said:

My instructor advocates less hip rotation. He says from the position I was getting at the top of the swing, I was too far to get around to a good impact position. I've worked on it, but am getting a lot of mixed signals. Monte suggests more hip rotation. Today's swing felt good and the results were great. I want to be sure I understand exactly what I'm trying to achieve as I make more changes. From the driver and 2-iron I've shown, is the "over sway" during the backswing or downswing?

 

TBH, at this point it's getting a little silly because you're coming here and basically no one agrees with what your instructor is saying from what I can tell, which is totally confusing you and what you should be doing.  

 

You either have to trust your instructor and just listen to what he's telling you, or scrap him and go to someone else that you do trust.   

[chigolfer1]

On 3/16/2021 at 5:28 AM, TheDeanAbides said:

Look at this and then go read this post from Monte...

 

 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CMFW-xPFdLf/

[golfarb1]

El Macho

 

The Diagnosis

You have a TEETA- TOTTER hip movement going back,  which means that the right  side of your pelvis is moving up significantly while your left  side of the pelvis is moving significantly down .This leads to a reverse pivot in which your spine is tilting towards the target at the top and your weight has moved to the outside of your right foot.

Fix this hip movement going back and this issue will be resolved.

The etiology of this problem is really rather simple.

YOU ATTEMPT to MAINTAIN the BRACE of the RIGHT KNEE FROM SETUP to the TOP.

 

Anatomically  the right knee brace directly affects the amount and direction of pelvic movement .

Notice that during your backswing ,  your right knee moves a little laterally until the time when your hands get past your right knee going back . BUT after that the teeta- totter happens as a direct result of trying to maintain the brace of your right knee because the brace of your knee prevents your pelvis from moving correctly.

 

SO EXPECT to LOSE SOME of YOUR RIGHT KNEE BRACE as your BACKSWING progresses. Now I am NOT advocating that you lose the entire brace of the right knee so that the right leg becomes straight , because that creates an entirely different set of problems. Just expect to lose SOME of your right knee brace going back.

 

One more note . The teeta - totter is more evident with your iron than your driver , but is still present.

 

 

[Zitlow]

You're athletic which I hate seeing go to waste. You're hanging left because you're trying to pivot on a centralized invisible axis (an axis with no support). Just because golf instruction advocates something doesn't necessarily make it correct. 

 

Pitchers step to 2nd base setting up their right leg and hip as the axis for the windup. Then they step to home plate setting up the left leg and hip as the axis for their delivery to the catcher. You'll never see them pivot on an indivisible axis. 

 

How do you establish an axis in the golf swing? It isn't complicated you do it everyday when you walk except in the swing you're walking sideways. 

[David69]

The only way I was able to stop the sway back was to do mirror work and set a physical barrier on my right hip that I would stop bumping into on the backswing. The weight goes into your right heel and your right leg braces on your insole as your butt cheek goes back and slightly toward the target. You are going to HATE it because it feels like you are moving ahead of the ball on the backswing. But in reality you are staying centered and shifting weight to the lead side earlier that you are used to - which is correct. You can also toss a wedge under your outside right foot that will immediately stop you from swaying back. It takes a while to get used to this. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by David69

[ElMacho]

On 3/18/2021 at 4:54 PM, chigolfer1 said:

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CMFW-xPFdLf/

 

On 3/19/2021 at 1:37 PM, David69 said:

The only way I was able to stop the sway back was to do mirror work and set a physical barrier on my right hip that I would stop bumping into on the backswing. The weight goes into your right heel and your right leg braces on your insole as your butt cheek goes back and slightly toward the ball. You are going to HATE it because it feels like you are moving ahead of the ball on the backswing. But in reality you are staying centered and shifting weight to the lead side earlier that you are used to - which is correct. You can also toss a wedge under your outside right foot that will immediately stop you from swaying back. It takes a while to get used to this. 

 

On 3/19/2021 at 1:02 PM, Zitlow said:

You're athletic which I hate seeing go to waste. You're hanging left because you're trying to pivot on a centralized invisible axis (an axis with no support). Just because golf instruction advocates something doesn't necessarily make it correct. 

 

Pitchers step to 2nd base setting up their right leg and hip as the axis for the windup. Then they step to home plate setting up the left leg and hip as the axis for their delivery to the catcher. You'll never see them pivot on an indivisible axis. 

 

How do you establish an axis in the golf swing? It isn't complicated you do it everyday when you walk except in the swing you're walking sideways. 

 

On 3/18/2021 at 6:11 PM, golfarb1 said:

El Macho

 

The Diagnosis

You have a TEETA- TOTTER hip movement going back,  which means that the right  side of your pelvis is moving up significantly while your left  side of the pelvis is moving significantly down .This leads to a reverse pivot in which your spine is tilting towards the target at the top and your weight has moved to the outside of your right foot.

Fix this hip movement going back and this issue will be resolved.

The etiology of this problem is really rather simple.

YOU ATTEMPT to MAINTAIN the BRACE of the RIGHT KNEE FROM SETUP to the TOP.

 

Anatomically  the right knee brace directly affects the amount and direction of pelvic movement .

Notice that during your backswing ,  your right knee moves a little laterally until the time when your hands get past your right knee going back . BUT after that the teeta- totter happens as a direct result of trying to maintain the brace of your right knee because the brace of your knee prevents your pelvis from moving correctly.

 

SO EXPECT to LOSE SOME of YOUR RIGHT KNEE BRACE as your BACKSWING progresses. Now I am NOT advocating that you lose the entire brace of the right knee so that the right leg becomes straight , because that creates an entirely different set of problems. Just expect to lose SOME of your right knee brace going back.

 

One more note . The teeta - totter is more evident with your iron than your driver , but is still present.

 

 

Hey everyone! All this feedback is awesome. Thank you so much. The instagram video of Monte is clear and to the point. I'm going to work through these ideas and report back in few weeks to see if I've understood.

Edited March 22, 2021 by ElMacho

[leekgolf]

On 3/15/2021 at 10:55 PM, ElMacho said:

My instructor advocates less hip rotation. He says from the position I was getting at the top of the swing, I was too far to get around to a good impact position. I've worked on it, but am getting a lot of mixed signals. Monte suggests more hip rotation. Today's swing felt good and the results were great. I want to be sure I understand exactly what I'm trying to achieve as I make more changes. From the driver and 2-iron I've shown, is the "over sway" during the backswing or downswing?

 

IMHO, based on this I would consider taking online lessons from Monte. He seems to be one of the instructors with the ability to see what your strengths and weaknesses are, and identify a root flaw that if fixed will take care of several things. I suggest Monte because he has already IDed your root flaw, so can help you fix it.

 

 

[ElMacho]

On 3/1/2021 at 10:36 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

You’re losing lag because of poor hip turn, you’re putting the cart before the horse...and working on multiple issues never succeeds.  If you lagged the club from that pelvis position, you’d top it.  It’s why you can’t work on it directly.  Trying to deloft  the club on purpose is NEVER a good idea.

 

Thats a sway not a turn.  The right hip needs to work behind you and toward the target in the second half of the backswing.

Hi Monty et al.,

 

Thanks for this feedback on my hip turn. Since getting this advice, I made starting the downswing with hip rotation my "go to move" for all of my clubs. It's working wonders, even for my wedges. After wrapping up a decent round yesterday, I thought about all the suggestions from this thread and wondered what I should work on next. So, I grabbed a stray ball and dropped by the range to capture some swings before heading home.

 

I'm feeling comfortable with a flat left wrist these days, but I'm open to changing any aspect of my swing if a good argument exists.

 

[MonteScheinblum]

59 minutes ago, ElMacho said:

Hi Monty et al.,

 

Thanks for this feedback on my hip turn. Since getting this advice, I made starting the downswing with hip rotation my "go to move" for all of my clubs. It's working wonders, even for my wedges. After wrapping up a decent round yesterday, I thought about all the suggestions from this thread and wondered what I should work on next. So, I grabbed a stray ball and dropped by the range to capture some swings before heading home.

 

I'm feeling comfortable with a flat left wrist these days, but I'm open to changing any aspect of my swing if a good argument exists.

 

Your backswing hip turn is still way too restricted and firing the hips forward that early is going to cause serious issues, the biggest of which is back and rotator cuff problems.  Your arms are so far behind.  

Edited May 3, 2021 by MonteScheinblum

[Krt22]

I just pulled something in my back looking at that, holy cow. 

[MonteScheinblum]

With your hips knees and right heel position, you should be well past impact.

 

 

[Krt22]

Need to change your username to Elvis

 

[Arthur_Vandelay]

On 2/26/2021 at 7:59 AM, pinhigh27 said:

Did you ask them why they want you to cup the wrist? Either you believe in the person or you don't. If you do and that's what they say to do, then do it. If you don't, then don't and find someone else. I don't know why you inherently would or would not want to move in a certain way. 

 

Why are you taking lessons if you apparently know everything you need to fix?

what an incredibly helpful response

 

 

[Krt22]

44 minutes ago, Arthur_Vandelay said:

what an incredibly helpful response

 

 

It's pretty solid advice IMHO. If you don't believe an instructor, it's either because they are flat out wrong or they are telling you something you simply dont want to hear (even if it is correct), in either instance case very little progress will occur . Bad instructors are a real thing, but so are stubborn/unteachable students. So it's best to move on, find someone else or just stop taking lessons in general and save your money

[Tupperwolf]

Is this swing position real life??

 

Give OP a year and some good instruction and I bet he beats the hell out of the ball.  There's some athleticism there that just needs tuning.  Never seen footwork like that.  I look forward to see what Monte can do for him over time.

[rondo01]

4 hours ago, Tupperwolf said:

Is this swing position real life??

 

Give OP a year and some good instruction and I bet he beats the hell out of the ball.  There's some athleticism there that just needs tuning.  Never seen footwork like that.  I look forward to see what Monte can do for him over time.

agreed. That’s an insane move. If I even attempted it, I’d pull a muscle. 

[ElMacho]

6 hours ago, Tupperwolf said:

Is this swing position real life??

 

Give OP a year and some good instruction and I bet he beats the hell out of the ball.  There's some athleticism there that just needs tuning.  Never seen footwork like that.  I look forward to see what Monte can do for him over time.

This is a fair question.

 

I was trying to maximize my hip rotation, as much to be a good student of this thread, as for the fact that it really does generate effortless power. 
 

Today I went to the range and took some videos of less extreme swings. They’re all carrying over 300 and pretty straight, so I’m thrilled with the effects of more hip rotation. Thanks for everyone's advice!

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by ElMacho
Videos not slomo

[ElMacho]

[Krt22]

4 hours ago, ElMacho said:

This is a fair question.

 

I was trying to maximize my hip rotation, as much to be a good student of this thread, as for the fact that it really does generate effortless power. 
 

Today I went to the range and took some videos of less extreme swings. They’re all carrying over 300 and pretty straight, so I’m thrilled with the effects of more hip rotation. Thanks for everyone's advice!

 

 

IMG_0036.MOV 29.63 MB · 4 downloads

You still aren't quite grasping what most folks are saying. You are trying to "maximize" it too much in the downswing and are neglecting how little and incorrectly they work in the back swing. The way your hips/shoulders turn and tilt in the backswing is still not ideal, you just get away with it because you are strong and flexible. Long term it's going to be a source of inconsistency and potentially injury