ADVICE? Instructor Insists Bowed Wrist Is Wrong, Must Cup

[llewol007]

Well what were you expecting him to do? teach you a bowed technique. That is not standard in terms of teaching. Yes Dustin does it, but he is a tour player who can do what works for him. What if the guy wanted you to have a swing like  Adam Scott and you currently swing like Furyk. Some teachers will teach what the masses are suppose to do. Unless you show him that your bowed technique is giving you results like Dustin, you cant dismiss what he says. Go find a teacher that will teach to your swing. Golf Galaxy will teach you like they were taught.

[ElMacho]

7 hours ago, llewol007 said:

Well what were you expecting him to do? teach you a bowed technique. That is not standard in terms of teaching. Yes Dustin does it, but he is a tour player who can do what works for him. What if the guy wanted you to have a swing like  Adam Scott and you currently swing like Furyk. Some teachers will teach what the masses are suppose to do. Unless you show him that your bowed technique is giving you results like Dustin, you cant dismiss what he says. Go find a teacher that will teach to your swing. Golf Galaxy will teach you like they were taught.

That’s fair. Ultimately, I took his advice and abandoned the RAHM-like bowed wrist I originally wanted to achieve. His point that it could lead to injury, seems plausible. And for now, I’m hitting the ball much straighter with a flat/slightly bowed wrist.

 

7 hours ago, Krt22 said:

You still aren't quite grasping what most folks are saying. You are trying to "maximize" it too much in the downswing and are neglecting how little and incorrectly they work in the back swing. The way your hips/shoulders turn and tilt in the backswing is still not ideal, you just get away with it because you are strong and flexible. Long term it's going to be a source of inconsistency and potentially injury

Thank you for highlighting this. It’s easy to get fixated on one aspect of the swing at the exclusion of another.

 

I will work on my backswing hip depth and report back in a few weeks.

Edited May 5, 2021 by ElMacho

[Chief Penguin]

2 hours ago, ElMacho said:

That’s fair. Ultimately, I took his advice and abandoned the RAHM-like bowed wrist I originally wanted to achieve. His point that it could lead to injury, seems plausible.

I’m not suggesting at all that you shouldn’t follow the guy’s advice, but my question here is, “how different is it really than throwing a frisbee”?

 

I started cultivating a (sight-mid) bowed wrist over the winter because I couldn’t control how much I was “rolling” the club shut well enough. It feels fine and I can’t imagine how it could hurt you.

[ElMacho]

22 minutes ago, Chief Penguin said:

I’m not suggesting at all that you shouldn’t follow the guy’s advice, but my question here is, “how different is it really than throwing a frisbee”?

 

I started cultivating a (sight-mid) bowed wrist over the winter because I couldn’t control how much I was “rolling” the club shut well enough. It feels fine and I can’t imagine how it could hurt you.

 

 I used the word plausible, because I'm not certain. In the past, I've slipped while swinging in wet conditions and smashed the club straight into the ground, and that always feels terrible, but it seems to feel worse with a heavily bowed wrist. Then again, whether you are cupped or not at the top of swing, Five Lessons recommends a bowed wrist at impact. At this moment, my focus is on my hip turn in the backswing.

 

13 hours ago, iSwing said:

Lot of tidying up to do.  Here's what I would start with. 

 

1.   Distribute address weight more evenly, biased toward the rear foot.

2.   Limit lead arm rotation going back.

3.   Get chin back where it belongs.

4.   More left tilt going back.

5.   Wear water wing on trail arm.

6.   Yell at range owner to get new balls.

 

BTW, this was great. 🤣

[Krt22]

4 hours ago, ElMacho said:

That’s fair. Ultimately, I took his advice and abandoned the RAHM-like bowed wrist I originally wanted to achieve. His point that it could lead to injury, seems plausible. And for now, I’m hitting the ball much straighter with a flat/slightly bowed wrist.

 

Thank you for highlighting this. It’s easy to get fixated on one aspect of the swing at the exclusion of another.

 

I will work on my backswing hip depth and report back in a few weeks.

If I were you I would try to find 1 instructor who you really trust (perhaps Monte on here?) and stick to that as your single source of truth or focus on whatever they want you to vs doing it by committee on the internet. You have a lot of athleticism, if you can address the core issues with your swing you can pick up even more speed and consistency. Good luck! 

[ElMacho]

On 5/4/2021 at 8:45 PM, iSwing said:

Lot of tidying up to do.  Here's what I would start with. 

 

1.   Distribute address weight more evenly, biased toward the rear foot.

2.   Limit lead arm rotation going back.

3.   Get chin back where it belongs.

4.   More left tilt going back.

5.   Wear water wing on trail arm.

6.   Yell at range owner to get new balls.

Thanks for the tips! I’ve worked on one through four. I don’t understand five and am reluctant to try out six, but if it comes down to it, I’ll give that a try. 🙂

Ultimately, I think that a flat wrist seems to suit me fine.

 

[Precis1on]

On 5/3/2021 at 10:20 PM, Krt22 said:

Need to change your username to Elvis

 

 

Monte called me Elvis for the first like 5 years I worked with him. 

[golfarb1]

The goal of a bowed wrist at the top is not achievable  for the vast majority of golfers who have a strong grip. In this respect Dustin Johnson is a poor model since his range of motion is off of the charts , even for the PGA tour.

You are doing a pretty good job with your swing . The prime issue that stands out is the amount that you bend  to the ball at setup.  Look at the amount of hip bend that Tiger has and the distance of his hands from his body .You need to setup closer to Tiger’s positions than you are currently . 

 

 

[ElMacho]

1 hour ago, golfarb1 said:

The goal of a bowed wrist at the top is not achievable  for the vast majority of golfers who have a strong grip. In this respect Dustin Johnson is a poor model since his range of motion is off of the charts , even for the PGA tour.

You are doing a pretty good job with your swing . The prime issue that stands out is the amount that you bend  to the ball at setup.  Look at the amount of hip bend that Tiger has and the distance of his hands from his body .You need to setup closer to Tiger’s positions than you are currently . 

 

 

Wow, I didn’t notice that at all, but you’re spot on correct about the spine angle. I’m going to work on that tomorrow.

 

Thank you!

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

15 hours ago, ElMacho said:

Wow, I didn’t notice that at all, but you’re spot on correct about the spine angle. I’m going to work on that tomorrow.

 

Thank you!

Just a bit more, such that your arms can loosely hang a bit more vertically. Should feel relaxed.

 

Your height will make it more difficult to straighten up too much more without affecting the club lie angle.

[putterboy75]

I didn't read every one of the comments but agree with most - overall, the #1 question you have to ask yourself is "am I getting better" after seeing this instructor?

 

Due to odd circumstances / moving locations frequently thanks to the pandemic, I've seen 9 different instructors in the past 18 months, a few of them several times. 2 - 3 were helpful with tackling some fundamental issues holding me back from getting to the next level. 2 - 3 told me exactly what all the others did in a different way, gave me practice drill / technique that's basically a copy of what Hogan says in his book (the more I take lessons from different people, the more I realize most teachers just adopt what's written in Hogan's book) the others actually were pretty innovative and I would have kept seeing them if I didn't move. Interestingly the price paid for the instruction had very little correlation with how they helped / hurt my game.

 

Finally, I think I've found someone that's worth paying a little more for his help. I resisted until a friend saw this instructor because he's $175 / hour which is pricey for the area, but after 1 lesson I'm thinking about a movement through impact in a different way which has been readily apparent right from the start.  This is an issue I've had for 15 years and never been able to correct. I also have most of the lesson recorded from him available on the Coach Now portal which is super helpful to reference and be sure I'm not slipping back into old habits.

 

So bottom line: if you don't see yourself improving after lessons with this instructor, don't waste more time and $ with more lessons thinking that it'lll work out. I'm more and more convinced some instructors have no idea what they're doing and what they tell you to change / work on will not only hinder the progress in your golf development but actually hurt you (physically and mentally) while also making you hate the game because no one likes playing fromthe trees and a ruined Saturday outing.

[TyWebb_Indy]

This was mentioned previous, but I'd echo that for those of us that are/were cupped at the top leading to weak high spinney ball flight. Saying you need bow the wrist may actually lead to a flat wrist, which is pretty ideal. At least this is how it worked for me. Its a feels vs reals thing, if you were in a cupped super weak position at P4 with an open face, having a flat wrist is most definitely going to "feel" bowed to you. Flatting my wrist, maybe very slightly bowed at P4 definitely seem to make me feel like I was doing less work to square the face through impact/P7. Remember take one aspirin, not the entire bottle! LOL

[ElMacho]

On 8/7/2021 at 12:48 AM, putterboy75 said:

I didn't read every one of the comments but agree with most - overall, the #1 question you have to ask yourself is "am I getting better" after seeing this instructor?

 

Due to odd circumstances / moving locations frequently thanks to the pandemic, I've seen 9 different instructors in the past 18 months, a few of them several times. 2 - 3 were helpful with tackling some fundamental issues holding me back from getting to the next level. 2 - 3 told me exactly what all the others did in a different way, gave me practice drill / technique that's basically a copy of what Hogan says in his book (the more I take lessons from different people, the more I realize most teachers just adopt what's written in Hogan's book) the others actually were pretty innovative and I would have kept seeing them if I didn't move. Interestingly the price paid for the instruction had very little correlation with how they helped / hurt my game.

 

Finally, I think I've found someone that's worth paying a little more for his help. I resisted until a friend saw this instructor because he's $175 / hour which is pricey for the area, but after 1 lesson I'm thinking about a movement through impact in a different way which has been readily apparent right from the start.  This is an issue I've had for 15 years and never been able to correct. I also have most of the lesson recorded from him available on the Coach Now portal which is super helpful to reference and be sure I'm not slipping back into old habits.

 

So bottom line: if you don't see yourself improving after lessons with this instructor, don't waste more time and $ with more lessons thinking that it'lll work out. I'm more and more convinced some instructors have no idea what they're doing and what they tell you to change / work on will not only hinder the progress in your golf development but actually hurt you (physically and mentally) while also making you hate the game because no one likes playing fromthe trees and a ruined Saturday outing.

Just want to thank you for this great post. I think you’re 100% correct.

 

In reference to my situation, I used up the three lessons and won’t likely spring for more. The instructor was fine and the facilities at Golf Galaxy are excellent, with their face on and down the line cameras and trackman. However, I’m now squarely in the quality over quantity camp. In the future, if I get any lessons it will only be from a top instructor. The key to lowering my scores this summer has been to take more responsibility for what lessons/tips/ideas that I allow into my head.

[putterboy75]

10 hours ago, ElMacho said:

Just want to thank you for this great post. I think you’re 100% correct.

 

In reference to my situation, I used up the three lessons and won’t likely spring for more. The instructor was fine and the facilities at Golf Galaxy are excellent, with their face on and down the line cameras and trackman. However, I’m now squarely in the quality over quantity camp. In the future, if I get any lessons it will only be from a top instructor. The key to lowering my scores this summer has been to take more responsibility for what lessons/tips/ideas that I allow into my head.

So glad I was helpful, I was hoping my experience would encourage you and it seems like you're on the right track now. As you've been finding (and I've been dealing with,) you sorta have to see several instructors to get a feel for which is the right one for you. Even though you're not going back to the GG teacher, I'm betting you know more about the golf swing and most importantly, YOUR swing, which will be useful as you continue on.

 

To your last point..I'm still trying to give my ear to only one voice so to speak, and block out all the YouTube noise, etc. It's hard when you love the technicals of the golf swing, but I know it's not helping me. Keep it up!

[Jbegz12]

Don't like that advice. A good instructor understands matchups and can work with your natural move. Sounds like this guy just thinks everyone should swing like adam scott. it aint happening

[TyWebb_Indy]

19 hours ago, Jbegz12 said:

Don't like that advice. A good instructor understands matchups and can work with your natural move. Sounds like this guy just thinks everyone should swing like adam scott. it aint happening

Agree, for every instructor that says there is a "wrong" element in your swing there is probably a professional golfer out there doing that exact thing and making it work. I think we can agree that there are some things that nearly every good golfer has in common within their swing, but there are also professional golfers out there making it work with unorthodox swings, weird (even wrong) moves. It's a series of compensations and the self taught awkward swings from guys on tour like Bubba, Wolf, etc.. are proof. You have to look at the trade-offs. If you've been bowing your wrist in your swing for 20 years and unlearning that move would cause more pain in your game that leaving it, then I think the answer is pretty obvious. If your wrist cupping is causing the face to shut at impact somewhat, a good instructor would try and work with that. There could be other characteristics in your swing or moves/feels that help you hold off the face a little more... example: you might find weakening the grip to be more comfortable than flattening the wrist. Granted, this advice very much depends on the fault at hand. Personally I like some wrist bow, especially since my miss is a flare to the right and I've always had very little face rotation in my swing. The left wrist position helps me square the face faster. The face can be very passive and still be pretty close to square as impact all things being equal. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by TyWebb_Indy

[ElMacho]

Spoke to instructor. No questions at this time.

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by ElMacho

[ElMacho]

On 5/3/2021 at 4:47 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Your backswing hip turn is still way too restricted and firing the hips forward that early is going to cause serious issues, the biggest of which is back and rotator cuff problems.  Your arms are so far behind.  

 

Hi Monte and anyone else viewing,

 

Am on the right track here? I really hope this swing holds up on the course, because it feels so right. TopTracer doesn't mind it either.

[MonteScheinblum]

Too far from driver.

 

right hip and knee are early 

[ElMacho]

7 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Too far from driver.

 

right hip and knee are early 

Thank you! 
 

I should also thank you for your no cast swing video. I finally understood it and now, whenever I need to hit a draw, I just think back to it when setting up and the ball comes out right then lands a little left.