Can’t seem to chip with forged wedges

[phizzy30]

9 hours ago, iNeedMoreGolf said:

If you read what the op said you would know he said he struggles with sand wedge but not gap wedge around the greens. He wants to use sand wedges higher loft but ends up chunking and flubbing. That most likely means the bounce is making it a bit more complicated for him. Its not as simple as just hit ball first. You can try that and still blade it. Each club has a bit of a technique especially wedges and grinds and bounce numbers can help that or not. If this aint true  then every pga player would just have all one kind of bounce and grind in their bags.

I have two wedges in my bag one with high bounce and the other with low.  I use them interchangeably depending on the course conditions and different lies.  I have them purposely set up like that.  I even put a lot of thought into shafts as well.  The kbs 610 is a lower launching and spinning shaft while the kbs tour in my 58* is higher launching and spinning.  It's worked out well for me. 

[nsxguy]

9 hours ago, iNeedMoreGolf said:

If you read what the op said you would know he said he struggles with sand wedge but not gap wedge around the greens. He wants to use sand wedges higher loft but ends up chunking and flubbing. That most likely means the bounce is making it a bit more complicated for him. Its not as simple as just hit ball first. You can try that and still blade it. Each club has a bit of a technique especially wedges and grinds and bounce numbers can help that or not. If this aint true  then every pga player would just have all one kind of bounce and grind in their bags.

 

I read what the OP wrote. Did you ?

 

"I’ve struggled to chip with my sand wedge, but usually have no trouble when I use my gap wedge"

 

He doesn't struggle "around the green". He struggles with chipping with a specific club. And you tell him about how you "had a 58*  with 6* bounce once and mann did i digg soo far into the ground the divot would go further then the ball". 

 

IMO, the bounce has nothing to do with proper chipping. While I was trying to be funny with "Hit the ball first", that IS what you need to do to chip well.

 

Bouncing the club into the shot/ball is an ADVANCED technique used by better players, usually out of fluffy rough around the green. And I don't recall any of them talk about bounce with straight forward chips.

 

The OP is having trouble between 2 specific clubs with different lofts.

 

It is, IMO, far more likely that it's this difference that's causing him issues. Not bounce. Not forged vs. whatever, and maybe not even different shafts (although that certainly could be a problem as well). Heck, different grips or grip size could cause such an issue - maybe not likely but possible.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Nessism said:

 

OP puts up question, a number of responses presented (some better than others 🙃,)  OP doesn't come back to thread to respond or provide more information.  

 

You reap what you sow.

 

 

 

 

Well, to be fair, he posted the question Saturday morning. This is only Monday morning.

 

Some of us (not ME, but some of us) have a life outside of this forum.

[Hawkeye77]

On 2/27/2021 at 11:56 PM, jds101086 said:

Not to be harsh here, but seeing the responses in this thread sums up everything that is bad about going to a golf forum for equipment advice.

All ears if you want to tell me what was wrong with my response in your view. 

 

Others look helpful as well.

[ChipNRun]

12 hours ago, iNeedMoreGolf said:

If this aint true  then every pga player would just have all one kind of bounce and grind in their bags.

Ralph Maltby always recommended that players find out their ideal wedge bounce, and then have at least one wedge that went the other way...

 

High-bounce swing /course conditions: maybe have a low-bounce LW.

Mid-bounce swing/course conditions: maybe have a high-bounce SW.

 

As for forged wedges being harder to hit? Forging is a manufacturing process. Bounce, lie angle, etc. would influence shots, but not the manufacturing process.

 

 

[Bad9]

4 minutes ago, ChipNRun said:

As for forged wedges being harder to hit? Forging is a manufacturing process. Bounce, lie angle, etc. would influence shots, but not the manufacturing process.

 

 

 

Thank you!

[Sparky14]

Hitting a forged wedge off of a wood tee is so much better than hitting a cast wedge off of a plastic tee. 

[MtlJeff]

1 hour ago, Bad9 said:

 

Thank you!

 

This is basically the whole thread...I mean yes, forged vs cast won't affect how the club interacts with the turf etc....so thread over.

 

The OP just needs to mess around with a few wedges and find one he likes

[kiwihacker]

The whole forged wedge vs cast wedge is obviously a misnomer because the OP happens to be playing a specialist 56° wedge that is forged. I've played Cleveland wedges for years that are cast ...

 

Actually ... come to think of it ... I have a FORGED Callaway Mack Daddy wedge, designed by Roger Cleveland no less, and I've NEVER gotten on with it.

 

Maybe the OP is on to something?  🤔

[Bad9]

42 minutes ago, kiwihacker said:

The whole forged wedge vs cast wedge is obviously a misnomer because the OP happens to be playing a specialist 56° wedge that is forged. I've played Cleveland wedges for years that are cast ...

 

Actually ... come to think of it ... I have a FORGED Callaway Mack Daddy wedge, designed by Roger Cleveland no less, and I've NEVER gotten on with it.

 

Maybe the OP is on to something?  🤔

Could be now that you bring it up. The vast majority of Vokey wedges over the years have been/are cast and guys swear by them.

[iNeedMoreGolf]

10 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I read what the OP wrote. Did you ?

 

"I’ve struggled to chip with my sand wedge, but usually have no trouble when I use my gap wedge"

 

He doesn't struggle "around the green". He struggles with chipping with a specific club. And you tell him about how you "had a 58*  with 6* bounce once and mann did i digg soo far into the ground the divot would go further then the ball". 

 

IMO, the bounce has nothing to do with proper chipping. While I was trying to be funny with "Hit the ball first", that IS what you need to do to chip well.

 

Bouncing the club into the shot/ball is an ADVANCED technique used by better players, usually out of fluffy rough around the green. And I don't recall any of them talk about bounce with straight forward chips.

 

The OP is having trouble between 2 specific clubs with different lofts.

 

It is, IMO, far more likely that it's this difference that's causing him issues. Not bounce. Not forged vs. whatever, and maybe not even different shafts (although that certainly could be a problem as well). Heck, different grips or grip size could cause such an issue - maybe not likely but possible.

I dont know about you but i chip around the green with those wedges not from 100+ yards out lol Heres the issue. You entered the conversation just saying.. hit ball first with a thumbs up sarcastically lol Now your more in depth which is better. We all know its nothing to do with forged or cast. Hes specifically saying the gap wedge is fine but sand wedge isnt... thats because the sand wedge is designed for.... yes.. sand. Which make it a tad more difficult to use in other situations unless you understand how to manipulate the bounce which make the whole process of hitting a simple chip harder which is why he does better with the gap wedge with chipping. Its also taught and recommended to use the bounce when chipping because thats what its there for and you risk blading otherwise. Its not hard at all. In fact ball first is harder... a touch before the ball is easier and its designed for that.  Its not being forged... he needs a higher lofted wedge with less bounce... discussion over! Lol

[ChipNRun]

Two additional items to consider:

 

First, Forged vs. cast: To recap an earlier statement, forging and casting are manufacturing processes. The resulting club and its bounce, lie angle, etc,., are what determines ball flight.

 

That said, in the past 20 years forged wedges are more likely to be players design than super game improvement. Thus, due to more precision tooling, forged wedges may be slightly more challenging to use than cast. This is largely true for people who can't practice much.

 

Second, wedge technique can influence how much bounce, which wedge works best, for chipping and partial wedges.

 

To focus on chipping and partial wedge shots, the old style said to engage the leading edge, hit down on the shot slightly and take a divot in front of ball. 

 

A new style is called engage the bounce. In this style, the golfer addresses the ball with minimal forward shaft lean. Then the golfer skims the sole of the club along the ground and hits the ball without excessive downward divot taking. This gives a bigger margin of error than leading-edge hit down.

 

If the golfer happens to pick it clean, the chip will fly a bit higher, but roll out less due to more backspin.

If the golfer hits it fluffy or fat, the chip comes out lower and rolls more, due to less backspin.

 

Some golfers purposely play to hit a half-inch behind the ball on chips and shorter pitches.

Edited March 2, 2021 by ChipNRun

[nsxguy]

25 minutes ago, ChipNRun said:

Two additional items to consider:

 

First, Forged vs. cast: To recap an earlier statement, forging and casting are manufacturing processes. The resulting club and its bounce, lie angle, etc,., are what determines ball flight.

 

That said, in the past 20 years forged wedges are more likely to be players design than super game improvement. Thus, due to more precision tooling, forged wedges may be slightly more challenging to use than cast. This is largely true for people who can't practice much.

 

Second, wedge technique can influence how much bounce, which wedge works best, for chipping and partial wedges.

 

To focus on chipping and partial wedge shots, the old style said to engage the leading edge, hit down on the shot slightly and take a divot in front of ball. 

 

 

A new style is called engage the bounce. In this style, the golfer addresses the ball with minimal forward shaft lean. Then the golfer skims the sole of the club along the ground and hits the ball without excessive downward divot taking. This gives a bigger margin or error than leading-edge hit down.

 

If the golfer happens to pick it clean, the chip will fly a bit higher, but roll out less due to more backspin.

If the golfer hits it fluffy or fat, the chip comes out lower and rolls more, due to less backspin.

 

Some golfers purposely play to hit a half-inch behind the ball of chips and shorter pitches.

 

 

 

If you copied this from somewhere would you kindly post the link ?

 

TIA

[Bad9]

8 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

Two additional items to consider:

 

First, Forged vs. cast: To recap an earlier statement, forging and casting are manufacturing processes. The resulting club and its bounce, lie angle, etc,., are what determines ball flight.

 

That said, in the past 20 years forged wedges are more likely to be players design than super game improvement. Thus, due to more precision tooling, forged wedges may be slightly more challenging to use than cast. This is largely true for people who can't practice much.

 

Second, wedge technique can influence how much bounce, which wedge works best, for chipping and partial wedges.

 

To focus on chipping and partial wedge shots, the old style said to engage the leading edge, hit down on the shot slightly and take a divot in front of ball. 

 

 

A new style is called engage the bounce. In this style, the golfer addresses the ball with minimal forward shaft lean. Then the golfer skims the sole of the club along the ground and hits the ball without excessive downward divot taking. This gives a bigger margin or error than leading-edge hit down.

 

If the golfer happens to pick it clean, the chip will fly a bit higher, but roll out less due to more backspin.

If the golfer hits it fluffy or fat, the chip comes out lower and rolls more, due to less backspin.

 

Some golfers purposely play to hit a half-inch behind the ball of chips and shorter pitches.

 

 

I have chipped like this for 10-15 years. IIRC it is/was advocated by Ralph Maltby

[Duffer222]

It could be a LOT of things.  One thing you can be sure if, it’s not because the club is forged!

[Duffer222]

On 3/1/2021 at 8:18 AM, Nessism said:

 

OP puts up question, a number of responses presented (some better than others 🙃,)  OP doesn't come back to thread to respond or provide more information.  

 

You reap what you sow.

 

 

Just another day on Wrx 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Duffer222

[ChipNRun]

13 hours ago, nsxguy said:

If you copied this from somewhere would you kindly post the link ?

 

TIA

From my readings on engage the bounce, I prepared the original diagram using PowerPoint. Then I grouped the items and copied it to the Reply cell. 

 

You can find detailed coverage of engage the bounce in a rival golf thread. The address would be blocked, however, by standard GolfWRX protocols. To find more info, google super bounce and Edel.

 

Also, here is a solid Golf Channel video which should link up OK.

Griffin on Bounce.

[Myherobobhope]

22 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

Ralph Maltby always recommended that players find out their ideal wedge bounce, and then have at least one wedge that went the other way...

 

High-bounce swing /course conditions: maybe have a low-bounce LW.

Mid-bounce swing/course conditions: maybe have a high-bounce SW.

 

As for forged wedges being harder to hit? Forging is a manufacturing process. Bounce, lie angle, etc. would influence shots, but not the manufacturing process.

 

 

Sieckmann also recommends a split set (though he explicitly states high bounce SW and low bounce LW, simply because the shots that require a low bounce shot come out faster, and thus having more loft on the shot makes sense. 

 

I'm really enjoying it in my current setup, and think it makes sense if you are carrying a lob wedge to have it be a different bounce than your sand wedge.

[nsxguy]

20 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

Two additional items to consider:

 

First, Forged vs. cast: To recap an earlier statement, forging and casting are manufacturing processes. The resulting club and its bounce, lie angle, etc,., are what determines ball flight.

 

That said, in the past 20 years forged wedges are more likely to be players design than super game improvement. Thus, due to more precision tooling, forged wedges may be slightly more challenging to use than cast. This is largely true for people who can't practice much.

 

Second, wedge technique can influence how much bounce, which wedge works best, for chipping and partial wedges.

 

To focus on chipping and partial wedge shots, the old style said to engage the leading edge, hit down on the shot slightly and take a divot in front of ball. 

 

A new style is called engage the bounce. In this style, the golfer addresses the ball with minimal forward shaft lean. Then the golfer skims the sole of the club along the ground and hits the ball without excessive downward divot taking. This gives a bigger margin of error than leading-edge hit down.

 

If the golfer happens to pick it clean, the chip will fly a bit higher, but roll out less due to more backspin.

If the golfer hits it fluffy or fat, the chip comes out lower and rolls more, due to less backspin.

 

Some golfers purposely play to hit a half-inch behind the ball on chips and shorter pitches.

 

"Player's" wedges are all one (really) needs as above ~40* loft the forgiveness of a CB ceases to provide any meaningful benefit.

 

This according to posters here whose expertise I have no reason to question (always wondered about that exact thing though - now I know).

 

It's entirely likely that CB wedges are made to sooth/convince/support the masses. More of a placebo if you will than a tangible benefit.

 

Your section about engaging the bounce is merely describing a way to mitigate a miss. Diggers with high bounce that hit it a tiny bit fat may get away with it as the club won't dig much and continue on to get a good piece of the ball.

 

Similarly sweepers, with very low bounce, may get away with it as well. With a more sweeping motion the high bounce club, with its higher leading edge, can easily bounce off the turf before contacting the ball and "blade" it most anywhere.

 

The lower leading edge of the low bounce iron though won't bounce into the back of the ball.

 

I'd love to hear from golfer who purposely hits the ground first on some pitches and chips. Talk about asking for trouble.

 

The ONLY time I can think of doing that is out of green side rough where the ball is sitting up a bit. The grass below the ball provides a bit of a cushion and a larger margin of error between the ball and the FIRM ground beneath. So on this particular shot I can see it being describe as "using the bounce".

 

Catch that one (above) clean, no damage. Catch it a bit heavy and still no damage as the bounce will allow the club to continue on and hit the ball "cleanly".

 

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

 

 

6 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

From my readings on engage the bounce, I prepared the original diagram using PowerPoint. Then I grouped the items and copied it to the Reply cell. 

 

You can find detailed coverage of engage the bounce in a rival golf thread. The address would be blocked, however, by standard GolfWRX protocols. To find more info, google super bounce and Edel.

 

Also, here is a solid Golf Channel video which should link up OK.

Griffin on Bounce.

 

The video is about sand play. We're talking about chipping here. "Everybody" knows sand is similar (in this respect) to the fairway.

 

Firm surface, less bounce. Softer surface, more bounce.

 

I can't find "engage the bounce" on the only other golf forum I'm aware of.

 

[grochol17]

On 3/1/2021 at 11:01 AM, Hawkeye77 said:

All ears if you want to tell me what was wrong with my response in your view. 

 

Others look helpful as well.

 

I doubt jds was speaking to you... my guess is that they were referring to the people suggesting that the OP buy more forgiving wedges.  All other things being equal, a cavity back sand wedge is not going to help someone that is chunking chips.  Nothing is going to help you if you're laying the sod over the ball around the greens except if you buy one of those super wide sole wedges they sell late at night on golf channel that supposedly doesn't dig in almost no matter what.  

 

Like some people have suggested there could be a feel issue if the wedge is significantly different from the rest of the OPs set or there is a technique issue that needs to be addressed.

[peetar]

You certainly could have a wedge that is bad for you. Try your buddies 56's while hitting puts and chipping before you play.  IF you fall in love with one of them it will most probably be a weight / swing weight difference.

 

On your good short shots with your GW,  do you  get under it, or does it feel like you're trapping  or pinching it?

[Steele47]

 

Perhaps a ceramic wedge if there is such a thing.

[ChipNRun]

MMM

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

I'd love to hear from golfer who purposely hits the ground first on some pitches and chips. Talk about asking for trouble.

 

The video is about sand play. We're talking about chipping here. "Everybody" knows sand is similar (in this respect) to the fairway.

Golfer who purposely hits ground first? Griffin in video mentions this.

 

We're talking about chipping here... Yes, agreed, But OP said he had trouble chipping with SW. And video is about bounce, and how to use it. Griffin just happens to use a SW, as does OP.

 

On 2/27/2021 at 8:02 AM, rkodavey said:

... I play an Adams Tom Watson forged 56 degree wedge (bounce is 13 degrees). I can’t tell you how many times I chunk little greenside chips with my Adams wedge, ...

 

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

"Player's" wedges are all one (really) needs as above ~40* loft the forgiveness of a CB ceases to provide any meaningful benefit.

You are correct, and not just for wedges. Quite a few GI iron models have launch-friendly heads in 4i to 7i, and more solid heads in 8i up through wedges.

 

As for search terms on "engage the bounce:" Google super bounce and Edel. I tried it earlier today and just now... got results both times.

[nsxguy]

9 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

MMM

Golfer who purposely hits ground first? Griffin in video mentions this.

 

OK, I just watched the video again and you are right (I guess). He didn't mention anything about being in sand. He ended with "hitting it 2 inches behind the ball".

 

And he was on a mat, and mentioned nothing about rough or high grass.

 

So let me ask you then. How many times do you estimate you have tried to hit a straight forward shot from the fairway 2 inches behind the ball ?

 

My answer is "0".

 

Anybody else ?

 

 

[oscar10]

Last year I started practicing my chipping a lot and found that I too was better with my gap wedge out of my Rogue full set than my vokey sand wedge. So I went on a hunt to find the matching sand wedge. No go. I saw a used Cleveland 54* CBX graphite and grabbed it figured that it was at least a cavity back and would be close to the Rogues. Played it all last year and love it. This club just works for me and I ordered the 58* yesterday. I never worry about fat shots ( i use the bounce a lot). YMMV

[ChipNRun]

@nsxguy, I'm not trying to get on your case in this discussion.You may be a leading-edge guy who succeeds with the style. The engage the bounce style is increasing in popularity, that's all I'm saying.

 

I first heard about engage the bounce circa 2016, and it took me a full two years to really understand it. This was due to short-game mental baggage from the 1970s that said you needed to hit down on all wedge shots - leading edge - to make sure you got good contact.

 

9 hours ago, nsxguy said:

So let me ask you then. How many times do you estimate you have tried to hit a straight forward shot from the fairway 2 inches behind the ball ?

 

For my wedge shots, I seem to make contact (don't ask me why, I'm not a pro...) on the fifth groove. Some people say that the "fourth groove" is the ideal face contact point* for irons, so I often hit partial wedges just a teeny bit fat. (But, not an intentional inch behind the ball).

---------------

* This assumes of course, that you have a more standard groove array on the clubface. No standard for how many grooves per vertical inch on face.

---------------

 

I'm a bit old style, as I normally chip greenside with 7i: shaft perpendicular at address, sweep the clubhead along the ground into the ball. My irons have tungsten-weighted soles, so they glide along the ground nicely.

 

Some people do use a SW for chips and pitches.

 

 

Anyway, I came across this Roger Cleveland video clip in which he talks about bounce, and using bounce. He says the bounce functions as a "skid plate" so the leading edge doesn't dig in during the shot. He says Phil Mickelson can hit a half-inch to inch behind the ball and still get the bounce to slide the clubface under the ball.

 

Note: You can also find chipping videos on how to handle hardpan or moon-crater lies so you don't get a line drive chip of pitch.

Edited March 4, 2021 by ChipNRun

[combokid]

Get yourself a Ping Eye2 lob wedge.

[Donn Rutkoff]

Don Martin Up n In.  Stan Thompson Closeup.  Ben Hogan Equalizer.  Or at least, use Mizuno wedge with little bounce.  And focus your eyes and hand coordination to hit exactly at the bottom of the ball with no ground, hit perfectly at the contact between the ball and the ground.  It takes full concentration to hit a smaller target spot when you are making a low energy swing.  We get mentally lazy when the swing is a soft little poke.